Ask a Pentecostal

[ltwin]

There’s a couple of girls in my school who are Pentecostal. Some of them wear mini-skirts while some used to, and some don’t. Why is this?

I have no idea why some girls at your school wear mini-skirts and some don’t.

If you are referring to why some Pentecostal churches have strict dress codes, I already covered that in post 11, page 1.

 

[ltwin]

Ahh, OK. I have never been to a church where people were dancing in the aisles or twisting and contorting on the ground. Sounds…interesting.

My only experiences have been where a single person gave a word or where everyone was praying individually, but in a group setting.

In your previous church, were they in full control of their bodies or did they appear out of control? I had heard/read of people barking.

The barking is not really classical Pentecostalism. That’s more of a Toronto Blessing thing.

 

[EIF5A]

Euodia and Syntyche were doing the same work that Clement, yes the future pope, was doing. These women were preaching the gospel. And Prisca and Aquila were leading a house church!

In those days, did women consecrate the Bread and Wine? Or has it always been men with the authority to do so?

Regarding women staying silent: I have read somewhere that it was because women in those days were not educated as men were and so were prone to talking amongst themselves and asking questions, causing some disturbance. Is there any truth to this?

 

[ltwin]

In those days, did women consecrate the Bread and Wine? Or has it always been men with the authority to do so?

Regarding women staying silent: I have read somewhere that it was because women in those days were not educated as men were and so were prone to talking amongst themselves and asking questions, causing some disturbance. Is there any truth to this?

I’ve heard that men and women sat in separate sections and the women were calling out questions to their husbands across the room. That is why Paul told the women to ask their husbands questions after church. I don’t know if that is true though.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Does your particular church believe in being “Slain in the spirit”? Also, where do you draw the line in believing it is from God when you hear or see other people speaking in tongues or being slain in the spirit? Do you just give them the benefit of the doubt always, or do you ever have doubts? See, I do believe in some kind of “speaking in tongues” because it is biblical, I just cannot get over the fact that I am sure more of it is fake than real. Such as from mass hysteria or self hypnosis or subconscious suggestions from the pastor or others. Respectfully, I ask, what are your thoughts on these things?

 

[Steveabrous]

Yes, it is convenient how some translate diakonos as “servant” because she is a woman.

I have to admit you stumped me on this a little. I would say this about it

" The word minister (or servant) in modern translations is the Greek word diakonos (deacon). Phoebe is the only woman specifically named a deacon in the New Testament. In the days of Paul’s ministry the role of the deacon was evolving. It involved an official function of some kind, most likely a pastoral one. As the Church developed, the position of deacon was more specifically described. Fifty to 70 years later, 1 Timothy 3:8-13 outlines the requirements and obligations of the deacon. "

1 tim 3: 12 “A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.”

Here paul indicates the role of deacon to be exclusively for men that point on at least.

I would also point out that a deacon is not a priest or bishop and can not administer the sacraments except baptism, which anyone can. they are still subordinate to the preist (elder) and bishop (overseer). women are not described to be in these roles in the bible which are the primary pastoral roles in the church.

How can you say that all he is talking about is work that all Christians are called to do? He says plainly:

Yes, I ask you also, true companion,help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers . . .

Euodia and Syntyche were doing the same work that Clement, yes the future pope, was doing. These women were preaching the gospel. And Prisca and Aquila were leading a house church!

I honestly do not see this as claiming these women were in a Pastoral role like Paul clearly gives Timothy and Titus. Mary and Margerat are shown as doing a lot of work for Jesus, more then the average follower, but Jesus did not make them Apostles. he only appointed men. Do you not find that significant?

I don’t see these passages to be anything more then you can say about nuns who work closely with priests and bishops. It does not say they had a pastoral role.

I respectfully see it differently then you.

The bible is, at best, ambiguous about the role of women in the early church (note that it is not ambiguous about the role of men.) This is why we need tradition and the magisterium to give clearity on theses subjects.

 

[ltwin]

Does your particular church believe in being “Slain in the spirit”?

It happens. The interesting thing is that being slain in the Spirit was not very common within classical Pentecostalism. When the charismatic movement began outside the Pentecostal churches, that is when slaying in the Spirit emerged as a common and institutionalized practice. If you’d like to know more about classical Pentecostal views on being slain in the Spirit and other physical manifestations of the Spirit’s presence, the Assemblies of God has a statement on it here.

Also, where do you draw the line in believing it is from God when you hear or see other people speaking in tongues or being slain in the spirit? Do you just give them the benefit of the doubt always, or do you ever have doubts?

If someone starts doing or saying something they are not suppose to then I’d get worried. If they are just speaking in tongues or falling under the power of God’s Spirit, why should I be worried? If there was demonic activity, it would be clearly manifest.

See, I do believe in some kind of “speaking in tongues” because it is biblical, I just cannot get over the fact that I am sure more of it is fake than real. Such as from mass hysteria or self hypnosis or subconscious suggestions from the pastor or others. Respectfully, I ask, what are your thoughts on these things?

Are you familiar with the Donatist heresy? Well, my approach to people “faking” spiritual things is much the same as how the Catholic Church handled that mess.

Jesus said, “Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn” (Matthew 13:30).

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

If someone starts doing or saying something they are not suppose to then I’d get worried. If they are just speaking in tongues or falling under the power of God’s Spirit, why should I be worried? If there was demonic activity, it would be clearly manifest.

You made me think of another question. Do you consider speaking in tongues sacramental? Also, can you give a example of what someone “saying or doing” something they are not suppose to is? What if they just believe “The spirit is moving them” to do it like people believe the spirit is “Moving them” to dance, or speak In tongues? How would you know if it is “Demonic activity” or just the spirit “Moving them”?

 

[ltwin]

Here paul indicates the role of deacon to be exclusively for men that point on at least.

I don’t see that. I mean, one could argue that if they were so inclined. Or Paul just didn’t want to write out “and women deacons should be the wife of one man, etc., etc.” I see not slam dunk that Paul said, “Women cannot be deacons.”

I get in trouble on this forum a lot because I automatically address posters as men. I’ve been corrected a few times that the poster I’m talking to is actually female. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that no women can post on CAF. It just means that I write with the universal masculine in mind.

I would also point out that a deacon is not a priest or bishop and can not administer the sacraments except baptism, which anyone can. they are still subordinate to the preist (elder) and bishop (overseer). women are not described to be in these roles in the bible which are the primary pastoral roles in the church.

Maybe not in the Bible, but in antiquity there were women described as presbyters.

I honestly do not see this as claiming these women were in a Pastoral role like Paul clearly gives Timothy and Titus. Mary and Margerat are shown as doing a lot of work for Jesus, more then the average follower, but Jesus did not make them Apostles.

I don’t see these passages to be anything more then you can say about nuns who work closely with priests and bishops. It does not say they had a pastoral role.

I respectfully see it differently then you.

Agree to disagree.

 

[ltwin]

You made me think of another question. Do you consider speaking in tongues sacramental?

Very interesting question. Your average Pentecostal would not describe speaking in tongues as “sacramental,” but several Pentecostal theologians have remarked on the sacramental qualities of tongue speech. Without going into too much detail, I’ll quote Assemblies of God theologian Frank Macchia (Baptized in the Spirit, p. 254): “tongues, the laying on of hands for healing, and foot washing have functioned in Pentecostal services in ways analogous to such in-depth sacramental experience.”

Also, can you give a example of what someone “saying or doing” something they are not suppose to is?

I don’t know. Like crawling on the floor hissing like a snake. That would be a tip off.

What if they just believe “The spirit is moving them” to do it like people believe the spirit is “Moving them” to dance, or speak In tongues? How would you know if it is “Demonic activity” or just the spirit “Moving them”?

If someone is given a prayer language by God, that prayer language is not just going to suddenly become a demonic manifestation. I don’t have to worry that one day the prayer language that God gave me in response to me asking for more of His Spirit will become a sign that I am possessed by an evil spirit. It doesn’t work like that. God gives good gifts to His children.

If someone is possessed and speaking in tongues then someone with the spiritual gift of Discernment of spirits (or just someone who knows enough about God) will know something is up and will begin praying for the individual until chains are broken and the victory is achieved.

If someone gets a little too excited and dances or runs around the church, that’s not the devil. That’s just the person getting too excited. Maybe they really like Jesus . . .

Let me also add. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He never compels us to do anything. He moves upon us and leads us and inspires us. But he does not force us to do what we do not want to do. If someone is under compulsion, that is not of God. If someone cannot control themselves, that is not of God.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I don’t know. Like crawling on the floor hissing like a snake. That would be a tip off.

Let me also add. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He never compels us to do anything. He moves upon us and leads us and inspires us.

So the people who start barking would be shut up in your church ? Also the people who believe that being “Slain in laughter” is a manifestation of the Spirit? Is that something they should not do?

Yeah, I recall going to a Pentecostal church around the age of 11 or 12 and people being slain In the spirit after the pastor laid hands on them and prayed for them. I can recall when he got to me, he laid hands on me and prayed and I was a little afraid of what would happen. I completely believed in being slain in the spirit at the time and even wanted to be, before. I still cannot decide to this day whether I was not slain like the others because of a lack of faith, I was too afraid or something, or the others were just faking it. Maybe one day I will figure it all out.

 

[ltwin]

So the people who start barking would be shut up in your church ?

Not shut up. But they would probably get some prayer warriors to lay hands on him.

Also the people who believe that being “Slain in laughter” is a manifestation of the Spirit? Is that something they should not do?

Do you mean “Holy Laughter?” Personally, I don’t see the point in God making an entire revival out of people laughing uncontrollably, but I don’t see anything per se wrong with people having joy in the presence of the Lord. If you get happy when the power of God falls on you, who am I to tell you to be quiet? It’s like shouting. Who am I to tell someone they can’t praise God with a shout? The Bible does say, Shout unto God with a voice of triumph. The Bible also says that a fruit of the Spirit is joy. There are a lot worse things someone could do in church than fall over laughing.

Yeah, I recall going to a Pentecostal church around the age of 11 or 12 and people being slain In the spirit after the pastor laid hands on them and prayed for them. I can recall when he got to me, he laid hands on me and prayed and I was a little afraid of what would happen. I completely believed in being slain in the spirit at the time and even wanted to be, before. I still cannot decide to this day whether I was not slain like the others because of a lack of faith, I was too afraid or something, or the others were just faking it. Maybe one day I will figure it all out.

Some “courtesy fall” because they want to fit in or they think they’re supposed to fall out. They are misinformed and possibly in a church that encourages that type of behavior. Yet, no one should mock God by pretending such things. God does not need your help to nock you on the floor. If God wants you to fall under His power, then you will feel the heaviness of His glory. You don’t have to fake it.

The prayer line in a Pentecostal church is like going up to a priest and asking for a blessing. We have no reason to believe or expect that some physical manifestation must accompany the laying on of hands. If it does, praise God. If it doesn’t, praise God too.

 

[Porknpie]

You will hear Pentecostals use the words “sacrament,” “ordinance,” and even “sacerdotal ordinance” in describing the two rites instituted by Christ, baptism and the Lord’s Supper. (Some Pentecostals add a third, foot washing). Pentecostals believe that God is always present in the midst of His people, so anything done in faith and among a corporate body of believers will definitely be opportunities for the Holy Spirit to work through. .

Itwin,

Do Pentecostals view themselves as having a faith that is Apostolic?

If so…

How do they reconcile that the Jesus taught the apostles…and wherever the apostles went, they taught the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? That the bread and wine truly becomes the body and blood of our Lord.

Justin Martyr describes the Mass in 155ad…staying the same until our present day.

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.171

So curious I am on if Pentecostals view themselves as following an apostolic faith, but not believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as the Church has believed for 2,000 years (and which can be seen in the Words of scripture when view from the apostolic light). And in doing so, where does this tradition come from and why?

Great thread…thank you for starting it…I’m learning about them Pentecostals.

Pork

 

[EIF5A]

So curious I am on if Pentecostals view themselves as following an apostolic faith, but not believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as the Church has believed for 2,000 years (and which can be seen in the Words of scripture when view from the apostolic light). And in doing so, where does this tradition come from and why?

Great Thread.

Pork

As a Protestant from a charismatic background seeking a church where the Real Presence is taught and practiced, I am quite curious about the history as well.

My current AOG church stresses that communion is symbolic only. I always just accepted that until more recently.

 

[Porknpie]

As a Protestant from a charismatic background seeking a church where the Real Presence is taught and practiced, I am quite curious about the history as well.

My current AOG church stresses that communion is symbolic only. I always just accepted that until more recently.

EIF5A -

Good for you. The “Summit of our Faith” is the Eucharist. There are only two options here:

1. Catholics are pagans
2. Catholics are right about Real Presence.

History is on our side because we for one, can read what the early Church believed…everywhere… in every land…they believed in the Real Presence. This is what Christ taught his apostles and that the apostles taught their successors. Read John 6…several times with this in mind.

If we’re wrong…Christ was a very poor teacher…and we are pagans.

Nah.

Pork

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

The written word is the Bible, Holy Scripture. Pentecostals didn’t “determine what the written word” was. By the time Pentecostalism emerged as a distinct tradition, canonization was long complete…

Christians disagree as to what exactly is canonoized Holy Scripture. What books are contained within the Pentacostal canon?
Iwin:

…For doctrine, we read the Bible…

How do you reconcile parts of the Bble that can be vague regarding doctrine such as whether elective abortion is murder, can someone divorce someone they are married to, or whether Holy Communion is symbolic or more than symbolic?

 

[Steveabrous]

Maybe not in the Bible, but in antiquity there were women described as presbyters.

.

Where?

 

[Porknpie]

As a Protestant from a charismatic background seeking a church where the Real Presence is taught and practiced, I am quite curious about the history as well.

My current AOG church stresses that communion is symbolic only. I always just accepted that until more recently.

EIF5A -

Meant to say… IMHO, take some time to read through the tracts on catholic.com and spend some time reading through scripturecatholic.com for scripture and early church fathers references.

On the Eucharist…we can see the Real Presence foretold in the OT… nothing symbolic here. Christ’s Eucharistic sacrifice is the only pure offering, world-wide, all day & night long.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.

And Justin Martyr is clear…that “we have been taught” about the Real Presence…taught by Christ to the Apostles…from the Apostles to their descendants.

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,** is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh**.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Christ was not a poor teacher.

Pork.

 

[Steveabrous]

Maybe not in the Bible, but in antiquity there were women described as presbyters.

.

You pointed out things that you say we believe that aren’t in the bible. So therefore you don’t accept them.

So, if we are going to use sources other then the bible of the early church then let’s talk about the wrttings of Ignatius of Antioch, the Protoevangeleum of James, irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, etc…which leave no doubt that the early church had apostolic succession, the Bishop of Rome as the head of the church, the eucharist in reality not symbolism, and believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary and intercessory pray to the saints. All those things you object to.

 

[Miriam1947]

Ahh, OK. I have never been to a church where people were dancing in the aisles or twisting and contorting on the ground. Sounds…interesting.

My only experiences have been where a single person gave a word or where everyone was praying individually, but in a group setting.

In your previous church, were they in full control of their bodies or did they appear out of control? I had heard/read of people barking.

I had no previous church. I went to various churches but was never a formal member of any.

Those churches were just some of many I visited with family or on my own. This was many years ago. One of my sisters got involved with a ‘bible believing church’ and her daughter could not even go swimming because a swimsuit might incur lust in males. Made me sick. Anyone who thinks about lust with a little girl is not someone I want my children near.

It is amazing the diversity in non-denominational groups.

I was basically unchurched for many years before I became Catholic.