Ask a Pentecostal

[guanophore]

I grew up in the Catholic church and also went to church for years and learned what was expected and how to behave. When I made the same realization that I knew who God was but I didn’t “know” him, I left the Church to find Him!

we do, and we join you in prayer.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve always been curious about Catholicism and I also wanted to learn more about the faith. Growing up it always seemed so “mystical”. There were very few Catholics in my home town but I just happened to live next to a sweet elderly Catholic lady that always told me that I needed to pray to the baby Jesus. As a kid I thought that was nice but never understood what she meant since he had grown up and been cruxified.
I also grew up with the image of Catholics always being drunk and/or seeing images of Mary and Jesus in their French toast, lint traps, grilled cheese, etc… I know it sounds crazy but when television is your only reference it’s easy to get that impression.
Now that I’m older I’m trying to get in the habit of getting information about different people and groups from the source. I still have a lot to learn about Catholicism. I also have many questions but I’m trying to figure out the best way to ask (or who to ask) without sounding offensive or starting an argument.

These links may help.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2090560&postcount=10

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=6487

 

[fredplont]

Thanks for the explaination.

i pray my response isn’t taken wrong:

I AGREE with Archbishop Sheens Comment:

“The truth remains the truth even if no one believes it & a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it.”

I FULLY understand that God alone controls conversions.

hello–PJM- the following is a theme – that i see in most of your posts-

• when you are pointing out that the person you are talking to is wrong–

because only the catholic church can be the interpreter of scripture

“”"That said; I am still amazed that so many fail to grasp this very simple; very logical concept:

There is One God [we agree]

One God CAN have only One set of Faith beliefs

[logically; theologically and Morally] have only One set of Faith beliefs

Christ founded Only One Church,

with One set of faith beliefs founded on our One God

now normally-PJM- you end this theme with

and that is today’s CC–

SINGULAR""""

.

Thanks again!

A major difference in the Pentecostal denomination-- and the catholic – is the fact that they are defined by the pentecostal out pouring" of the Holy Spirit–

where as – in the catholic-- they continually are defined by the “real presence” and apostolic–

at least it seems to me--

youtu.be/KKLWfhhLZAs

 

[benjohnson]

LOL yes I think those of us with strong Liturgical traditions are very closed to much of any spontaneity during them.

But what about private prayer? Is it acceptable to speak in tongues or experience a prophesy when one is praying privately, or in a small group?

Generally and culturally, we “just don’t do that.” We sometimes have small groups share prayers and faith building personal experiences, but speaking in tongues generally isn’t done in the Lutheran tradition. Private revelation usually isn’t shared,

Where I think Lutherans express that un-namable proclaiming joy in the Lord is in our music. I once brought a Catholic friend who wound up weeping with joy as the choir, organ and the laity sang to the Lord.

We really do get enthusiastic about the Gospel in our music!

Would this not just be a lack of catechesis? I think Catholics have the same problem. The average layperson has not learned basic principles of discernment.

(On Lutherans thing the bible having ‘enough’ prophesey] Ok, that is what I thought, and was wanting to confirm it. On what basis is this conclusion reached?

It’s not that we don’t hunger for more, it’s that the Scripture is already overflowing and has the virtue of being inerrent. If a Lutheran desires more of God’s comfort, we direct them to the Bible and the Sacraments.

The decision wasn’t to close the door on revelation, but more that we decided that we have no need for it. We’re a cautious lot!

Has there been any charismatic renewal in the Lutheran circles? Would a group of Lutherans ever have a prayer group outside of Liturgy for the purpose of experiencing the spontaneous movement of the Holy Spirit?

Despite what I’ve said that “we just don’t do that”, we do have a simmering charismatic movement in the LCMS. It’s very much tempered - where the spiritual experience must always be judged against scripture.

 

[grannymh]

OK, so maybe we don’t believe the same things. Let me explain the Pentecostal position more fully and then I’d like to here the Catholic position in fuller detail.

Sin is a choice to do something wrong. And sin has consequences. Adam, as the original first person on earth, had the responsibility of obeying God. Unfortunately, he preferred himself over God. He let his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Abusing his freedom to love God, Adam disobeyed God’s command. The consequences of that sin affected Adam’s human nature.

To go back to the beginning when Adam lived, the Catholic Church teaches that Adam, the very first human being on earth, enjoyed a special relationship with God, the Creator. However, this special friendship relationship was not between two equals. Adam certainly was not an equal God. The reason Adam could be in friendship with God was that he had this marvelous ability to freely choose God. Choosing God meant that Adam was still a lesser creature, but he had both the knowledge and the free will to live as a creature in love with his Creator.

Of course, God knew that Adam could stop living in loving obedience. Sometimes, we need to remind ourselves that Adam was not a pretty rock. Adam was a true person who needed to make choices as to how he was going to live. Often we wonder why didn’t God make Adam perfect so he couldn’t sin. Both sin and love are actions which require a choice. If Adam could not choose sin or not choose love, he would be a pretty rock.

God’s love for Adam and his spouse Eve was so great that He blessed them as the first parents of all humanity which would follow. With this blessing, Adam and Eve started out in a relationship of love and friendship with God. Their future children and their children’s future children would begin life in God’s friendship. Before all this could take place, Adam had a choice to make. The terms or rules for being in friendship with God was that Adam had to be obedient. Remember that he was not a god, but someone created by God.

Because He is the original human, Adam committed the Original Sin. Because Adam was to be the first father of all humans, his sin had disastrous consequences. As a parent, having children, Adam passed on his wounded nature to his children. Eventually, we received Adam’s wounded nature.

Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. As True God, Jesus loves all humanity from the moment of Adam’s first breath of life. Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd because not only does He take care of His flock, but He also hunts for any sheep that lost its way.

As True Man, Jesus stood in our place. With His supreme act of obedience, He conquered death and thus repaired the broken relationship which was originally between Adam and God. Sometimes at sports events, someone will hold up a sign which simply says, John 3: 16. I have seen John 3:16 as part of a barn roof. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son (Jesus Christ) so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but have eternal life.” No matter what Adam did, God continues to call us, you and me, to eternal life in the peaceful presence of God Himself. No matter what evil and suffering is in our world, we know that God, our Creator loves us and wants us to be with Him in eternal joy. This is why Jesus came to earth. He made it possible for us to be with God. Jesus repaired the damage which Adam chose to do.

When we are troubled by the story of Adam and Eve, we need to look first at Jesus Christ Who repaired the damage which occurred at the beginning of human history. Do I think that it is fair that humanity received their human nature from Adam and Eve? I think of it in this way. The human nature which we receive from our first parents is a nature designed to live in eternal joy with God. We are not pretty rocks.

Yes, we are capable of committing sin; but, we have Jesus Christ, our Good Shepherd Who leads us back to God. We have the Catholic Church, which has Seven Sacraments which provide the grace, that is, the help we need to remain true to God.

No matter what Adam did, God continues to call us, you and me, to eternal life
in the love-filled presence of God Himself. No matter what evil and suffering is in our world, we know that God, our Creator loves us and wants us to be with Him for eternity.

When Adam turned his back on God, God did not abandon Adam’s descendents.
The way God continues to love us is more than fair.

 

[berryright]

Itwin,

hello do you have additional info on this

To understand this transmission of faith - by word and by writing - we can look at what the early church believed about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Justin Martyr is clear…that “we have been taught” about the Real Presence…taught by Christ to the Apostles…from the Apostles to their descendants.

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

That early Catholic Church continued to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist … and when the Catholic Church approved the Canon of Scripture in 400ad, they approved it to have a universal set of readings at the Catholic Mass (& for teaching & instruction)

If we could go back to those Church councils in 393, 397 and 405 ad (think my dates are correct), these church councils – were these the e

Catholic Ecumenical Councils include 21 councils over a period of 1700 years. were there earler church beliefs in “real presence” before 315 ad-- with Constantine

]While definitions changed throughout history, in today’s Roman Catholic understanding Ecumenical Councils are assemblies of Patriarchs, Cardinals, residing Bishops, Abbots, male heads of religious orders and other juridical persons, nominated by the Roman Pontiff. They meet to discuss matters of faith and Church discipline. Council decisions, to be valid, are approved by the popes.[1] Participation is limited to these persons, who cannot delegate their voting rights.

we’d find everyone in the room believing in the Real Presence…and believing the authors of the books that they were including in the canon of scripture believed in the Real Presence.

Itwin, since the apostolic age, the Catholic Mass has always included the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

I’m still not clear how one can profess to be “apostolic” and not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist…as the apostles and their descendants all believed.

By this you are saying the belief of transubstantiation ?, not consubstantiation,

or acceptance of it as a symbol?

i was wondering if you had additional info / experience

Pork

 

[JustaServant]

“Ask a [(name removed by moderator)ut your non-Catholic religion here]” threads seem popular. So, any questions that you want to ask about Pentecostalism?

Explain the difference, to the Catholics who have never been over the Tiber, between Pentecostal and Charismatic.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Pentecostals:
Arose in the early 1900s.
Tongues often are seen as the initial sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit. Although it is not a universal belief. It was the acceptance and actual speaking of tongues which was the visual/aural sign which set Pentecostals apart.
Formed into separate denominations.

Charismatics
Arose in the late 60s early 70s as the Pentecostal movement gained public acceptance
Less emphasis on tongues, they see it as possible but would not call for it during a praise service for example. And generally not holding to a belief in tongues as the exclusive initial sign of Spirit baptism.
Stayed within mainline denominations, and people tended to try to stay within their parent denominations in order to renew them.

 

[grannymh]

Explain the difference, to the Catholics who have never been over the Tiber, between Pentecostal and Charismatic.

In a very broad general sense, Pentecostal and Charismatic both refer to the coming of the Holy Spirit, Advocate and Counselor, as described in Acts and subsequently as taught by St. Paul. Chapter 14, Gospel of John, foretells the coming of the promised Holy Spirit.

Observable differences are present in the various Christian religions.

For example, in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal there is the emphasis on the Seven Sacraments as well as deepening one’s prayer life in whatever way one chooses. In addition, there is emphasis on service to others by participating in parish life and by extension to the public community. For Catholics, Renewal means renewal. One of the Renewal’s major purposes is to reestablish Jesus Christ as Lord of all humankind in Whom the Father reconciles all. This is why the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is primary with its Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

Obviously, some of the above purposes, especially praising Jesus as Lord and serving Him by serving others, are found in other Pentecostal/Charismatic groups. However, it must be remembered that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is within the Catholic Church itself.

 

[ltwin]

Explain the difference, to the Catholics who have never been over the Tiber, between Pentecostal and Charismatic.

In addition to what 4Squarebaby and grannymh have said, Classical Pentecostalism possesses a core set of traditional doctrines and practices that make it a distinct denominational family. In that sense, Classical Pentecostalism is like Lutheranism or Calvinists or Baptists. These core doctrines are:

Salvation. Pentecostals typically expect a conversion experience to mark one becoming a Christian. This occurs through the power of the Holy Spirit and the hearing of the Gospel, which brings faith. The conversion experience is often perceived as a “crisis experience” but not always. They do not believe in once saved always saved.
Sanctification. Pentecostals of all types have historically placed great importance on sanctification and holiness. Today, it is generally agreed that there is initial sanctification at conversion and thereafter a progressive growth in grace that is facilitated by spiritual disciplines such as prayer, fasting, Bible reading, church attendance, etc. There are Pentecostals who will also include within this process various “crisis experiences” in which they “prayed through” to deliverance and freedom from unhealthy lifestyle and thought patterns and pathologies in their lives. Many times this “praying through” takes place at the altar during a church service. While some Pentecostals have fallen into legalism, typically most Pentecostals speak of sanctification not in terms of self-righteousness or sinlessness. Instead, the focus is mostly on living an “overcoming life.” That is, while one will still sin at times, the sanctified individual is not bound or overcome by sin. They are able to resist through the grace of God as they continue to devote their lives to him.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit. For Pentecostals, this is a definite event in time that is separate from their conversion experience. It is often received after a time of “tarrying” at the altar or alone. “Tarrying” simply means deep prayer to God where one seeks after the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is believed to bring empowerment for effective Christian witness. This includes the charismatic gifts. Historically, Pentecostals have tended to give primary attention to speaking in tongues.
Divine Healing. Classical Pentecostal theology states that “healing is in the atonement.” This means that the will of God is to heal ALL Christians who ask him with faith just as God will forgive all who ask in Christ’s name. Pentecostals do realize that all are not healed, but this does not invalidate the doctrine for them. They believe that God is sovereign, and he heals who he wants. They believe it is better to pray the prayer of faith and believe that God will heal rather than not.
Soon Coming of Jesus. Pentecostals have traditionally been pre-millennial dispensationalist (though there are some who have different beliefs about the end times). So, most Pentecostals will believe in a rapture, 7 year tribulation, Battle of Armageddon, and millennial reign of Jesus on the earth timeline. Besides that, Pentecostals generally feel that the emergence of Pentecostalism in the 20the century was a sovereign move of God to bring a revival of the spiritual gifts and apostolic power to the Christian Church in order to make possible the evangelization of the world before the return of Christ. Therefore, the outbreak of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts in the 20th century has just as much eschatological significance as that of Pentecost in the 1st century.

Charismatics are much more diverse. This is because they are not a denomination unto themselves. There are charismatic Catholics, charismatic Anglicans, charismatic Baptists, and so on. Basically the only thing that unifies them is the belief in the continuation of widespread spiritual gifts in the Church today. Charismatic catholics will understand this in a way that conforms to Catholic theology as will Anglicans and other charismatic Protestants. Generally, charismatics don’t place as much emphasis on tongues as Classical Pentecostals do. They may emphasize healing, miracles, and prophecy more.

 

[jerry_joseph]

For our earthly life water is required mandatory. without water one cannot live in this earth. For our earthly life air is required mandatory, without air one cannot live in this earth. For our earthly life food is required mandatory. without food one cannot live in this earth. Here it is clear that water, air and food are very important requirement for our earthly life. It does not mean that with water only we can live and air and food are not required … Likewise the case of other things also.

It is in the same way bible tells that Faith is required for salvation. Without faith one cannot get salvation.Good deeds are required. Without good deeds one cannot get salvation. Sacraments are required (one cannot get salvation ,if he does not eat the flesh of christ and drinks his blood. John 6:51)

So it is not nonsense to tell that with faith alone one will attain salvation and no other things are required. It is like saying that water alone is required for earthly life and air and food is not required…

 

[ltwin]

For our earthly life water is required mandatory. without water one cannot live in this earth. For our earthly life air is required mandatory, without air one cannot live in this earth. For our earthly life food is required mandatory. without food one cannot live in this earth. Here it is clear that water, air and food are very important requirement for our earthly life. It does not mean that with water only we can live and air and food are not required … Likewise the case of other things also.

It is in the same way bible tells that Faith is required for salvation. Without faith one cannot get salvation.Good deeds are required. Without good deeds one cannot get salvation. Sacraments are required (one cannot get salvation ,if he does not eat the flesh of christ and drinks his blood. John 6:51)

So it is not nonsense to tell that with faith alone one will attain salvation and no other things are required. It is like saying that water alone is required for earthly life and air and food is not required…

Repentance is also required. However, faith is the means to repentance. I cannot repent to God if I don’t believe he exists. And, as stated above, Pentecostals stress sanctification, which is a process. A person needs to cultivate the spiritual disciplines. As the Practical Commitments of the Church of God state:

We will demonstrate our commitment to Christ through our practice of the spiritual disciplines; we will demonstrate our commitment to the body of Christ through our loyalty to God and commitment to His church; and we will demonstrate our commitment to the work of Christ through our being good stewards.

Practice of Spiritual Disciplines
Spiritual disciplines involve such practices as prayer, praise, worship, confession, fasting, meditation and study. Through prayer we express our trust in Jehovah God, the giver of all good things and acknowledge our dependence on Him for our needs and for the needs of others (Matthew 6:5-15; Luke 11: 1- 13; James 5:13-18). Through both private and public worship we bless God, have communion with Him, and are provided daily with spiritual enrichment and growth in grace. Through periods of fasting we draw close to God, meditate on the passion of Christ, and discipline ourselves to submit to the control of the Holy Spirit in all areas of our life (Matthew 6:16-18; 9:14-17; Acts 14:23). Through confession of our sins to God we are assured of divine forgiveness (1 John 1:9-2:2).The sharing of our confession with other believers provides the opportunity to request prayer and to bear one another 's burdens (Galatians 6:2; James 5:16). Through meditation on and study of the Word of God we enhance our own spiritual growth and prepare ourselves to help guide and instruct others in scriptural truths (Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:15, 23-26).​

and

Fruit of the Spirit
If we live in the Spirit, we will manifest the fruit (attitudes and actions) of the Spirit and will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16, 22-25; 1 John 1:7). Trustful relationships with others are a natural outgrowth of our positive relationship with the Lord (Psalm 1:1-3; Matthew 22:37-40). A lack of fruit-bearing in our lives will be judged (Matthew 7:16-20; Luke 13:6-9; John 15:1-8).

Character of Christ
Love for others is the hallmark of the Christ-life (John 13:34, 35; 15:9-13; 1 John 4:7-11). In His relationship with His Father, Jesus displayed submission (Luke 22:42; John 4:34; 5:30). In His relationship with others, He demonstrated acceptance (John 8:11), compassion (Matthew 9:36; Mark 6:34) and forgiveness (Matthew 9:2; Luke 5:20). We cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit and manifest the character of Christ without being spiritually joined to Christ (John 15:4, 5) and without having the seed of the Word planted in our heart (John 15:3, 1 Peter 1:22, 23).​

 

[jerry_joseph]

Repentance is also required. However, faith is the means to repentance. I cannot repent to God if I don’t believe he exists. And, as stated above, Pentecostals stress sanctification, which is a process. A person needs to cultivate the spiritual disciplines. As the Practical Commitments of the Church of God state:

We will demonstrate our commitment to Christ through our practice of the spiritual disciplines; we will demonstrate our commitment to the body of Christ through our loyalty to God and commitment to His church; and we will demonstrate our commitment to the work of Christ through our being good stewards.

Practice of Spiritual Disciplines
Spiritual disciplines involve such practices as prayer, praise, worship, confession, fasting, meditation and study. Through prayer we express our trust in Jehovah God, the giver of all good things and acknowledge our dependence on Him for our needs and for the needs of others (Matthew 6:5-15; Luke 11: 1- 13; James 5:13-18). Through both private and public worship we bless God, have communion with Him, and are provided daily with spiritual enrichment and growth in grace. Through periods of fasting we draw close to God, meditate on the passion of Christ, and discipline ourselves to submit to the control of the Holy Spirit in all areas of our life (Matthew 6:16-18; 9:14-17; Acts 14:23). Through confession of our sins to God we are assured of divine forgiveness (1 John 1:9-2:2).The sharing of our confession with other believers provides the opportunity to request prayer and to bear one another 's burdens (Galatians 6:2; James 5:16). Through meditation on and study of the Word of God we enhance our own spiritual growth and prepare ourselves to help guide and instruct others in scriptural truths (Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:15, 23-26).​

and

Fruit of the Spirit
If we live in the Spirit, we will manifest the fruit (attitudes and actions) of the Spirit and will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16, 22-25; 1 John 1:7). Trustful relationships with others are a natural outgrowth of our positive relationship with the Lord (Psalm 1:1-3; Matthew 22:37-40). A lack of fruit-bearing in our lives will be judged (Matthew 7:16-20; Luke 13:6-9; John 15:1-8).

Character of Christ
Love for others is the hallmark of the Christ-life (John 13:34, 35; 15:9-13; 1 John 4:7-11). In His relationship with His Father, Jesus displayed submission (Luke 22:42; John 4:34; 5:30). In His relationship with others, He demonstrated acceptance (John 8:11), compassion (Matthew 9:36; Mark 6:34) and forgiveness (Matthew 9:2; Luke 5:20). We cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit and manifest the character of Christ without being spiritually joined to Christ (John 15:4, 5) and without having the seed of the Word planted in our heart (John 15:3, 1 Peter 1:22, 23).​

So, what are you trying to say?. You are not believing in Sola Fidle or Sola Scriptura?..

 

[ltwin]

So, what are you trying to say?

I’m trying to say that Pentecostals believe that a true conversion will be evident. A person who is truly living for Christ will live out their faith through holiness and good works. For Pentecostals, placing faith in Christ is not simply a mental affirmation or lip service. To truly put faith in Christ is to repent of sin and submit to him.

As the Assemblies of God states:

But because we are creatures with free wills, we must be vigilantly on guard because the enemy of our soul, the devil, “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith” (1 Peter 5:8,9). In our Fellowship we believe carelessness can lead to apathy, apathy to neglect, and neglect to a conscious decision to sin. We often refer to this spiritual decline as backsliding. We believe one who backslides is in danger of losing his salvation if the individual persists in rejecting the Spirit’s call to repentance and restoration.
​

Mental assent is not enough. If we have real faith, we will live that faith out by turning from sin and living holy lives (through the power of the Holy Spirit and the strengthening that comes by engaging in the spiritual disciplines). If we fail to turn from sin and live in holiness, we are at risk of backsliding and losing our salvation.

You are not believing in Sola Fidle or Sola Scriptura?..

Do you even know what Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura actually mean? Nothing that I have said contradicts the Solas.

 

[andrewstx]

LOL yes I think those of us with strong Liturgical traditions are very closed to much of any spontaneity during them.

But what about private prayer? Is it acceptable to speak in tongues or experience a prophesy when one is praying privately, or in a small group?

Would this not just be a lack of catechesis? I think Catholics have the same problem. The average layperson has not learned basic principles of discernment.

Ok, that is what I thought, and was wanting to confirm it. On what basis is this conclusion reached?

Has there been any charismatic renewal in the Lutheran circles? Would a group of Lutherans ever have a prayer group outside of Liturgy for the purpose of experiencing the spontaneous movement of the Holy Spirit?

Gaunophore, years ago the was a Charismatic Benedictine monastery in Pecos New Mexico.

They sent monks to my parish in Odessa Texas for “Life in the Spirit” seminars. Are they still around?

 

[jerry_joseph]

Pentecostal s does not believes in priesthood. They believe that all are Gods priestly people and all have priestly authorities. Then why they are going to pastors for baptism?. Why a pentecostal believer does not give baptism to his relatives, wife and children by himself.? Why he require service of a pastor for that?. Why he goes to pastors for marriage and other ceremonies?. If you believe that pastor have only authority to do so, then why you blame the priesthood of catholic and orthodox churches?.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Pentecostal s does not believes in priesthood. They believe that all are Gods priestly people and all have priestly authorities. Then why they are going to pastors for baptism?. Why a pentecostal believer does not give baptism to his relatives, wife and children by himself.? Why he require service of a pastor for that?. Why he goes to pastors for marriage and other ceremonies?. If you believe that pastor have only authority to do so, then why you blame the priesthood of catholic and orthodox churches?.

It is not required but it is a public ceremony and pastors like to do them and people like it that the pastor of their community does them. As for marriages it is the pastor who has been deputized by the state. But if one does go a destination church with the pretty backdrop for pictures along with shopping for a politically correct clergyman if you are a celebrity, to a friend who got the state’s authorizing certificate, a county clerk or the Elvis Chapel in Las Vegas you are still married.

In the end the pastor of your community does it because it is a community binding event in both cases. Not because of any requirement that your pastor do it

 

[jerry_joseph]

It is not required but it is a public ceremony and pastors like to do them and people like it that the pastor of their community does them. As for marriages it is the pastor who has been deputized by the state. But if one does go a destination church with the pretty backdrop for pictures along with shopping for a politically correct clergyman if you are a celebrity, to a friend who got the state’s authorizing certificate, a county clerk or the Elvis Chapel in Las Vegas you are still married.

In the end the pastor of your community does it because it is a community binding event in both cases. Not because of any requirement that your pastor do it

What about baptism?. Is it a community binding event?. Then why a pastor is required for baptism?. Why a normal pentecostal does not give baptism to others?.

Also in case of marriage you told that as it is a community binding event ,pastors service is required. Then if a pentecostal conducts his marriage in front of public by himself , is it valid?. If yes , then why you are not doing so?.

 

[4Squarebaby]

jerry_joseph:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Squarebaby

It is not required but it is a public ceremony and pastors like to do them and people like it that the pastor of their community does them. As for marriages it is the pastor who has been deputized by the state. But if one does go a destination church with the pretty backdrop for pictures along with shopping for a politically correct clergyman if you are a celebrity, to a friend who got the state’s authorizing certificate, a county clerk or the Elvis Chapel in Las Vegas you are still married.

In the end the pastor of your community does it because it is a community binding event in both cases. Not because of any requirement that your pastor do it

What about baptism?. Is it a community binding event?. Then why a pastor is required for baptism?. Why a normal pentecostal does not give baptism to others?.

Also in case of marriage you told that as it is a community binding event ,pastors service is required. Then if a pentecostal conducts his marriage in front of public by himself , is it valid?. If yes , then why you are not doing so?.

A pastor is not “required” for a baptism, he is generally a better public speaker and is expected to officiate the event in front of the local congregation. But if someone ask for another brother or sister to baptise him the request would probably be honored. I sort of remember an article Jack Hayford wrote saying that evangilist should be ready to baptise, rather then handing a new convert over to a local church and wait for him to decide when to be bapized.

As for the marriage, if the state allows someone to just register without any ceremony and identify themselves as a married couple I am sure most Pentecostal communities would also consider them married. The ceremony itself is a community binding event which just did not happen where this couple was concerned, no different from the couple which elopes and returns to church after the honeymoon.

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[Reuben_J]

Charismatics are much more diverse. This is because they are not a denomination unto themselves. There are charismatic Catholics, charismatic Anglicans, charismatic Baptists, and so on. Basically the only thing that unifies them is the belief in the continuation of widespread spiritual gifts in the Church today. Charismatic catholics will understand this in a way that conforms to Catholic theology as will Anglicans and other charismatic Protestants. Generally, charismatics don’t place as much emphasis on tongues as Classical Pentecostals do. They may emphasize healing, miracles, and prophecy more.

Just some sort snippets on Catholic Charismatic.

Catholic Charismatic actually started to flourish in the early seventies and began to spread very rapidly thereafter. Perhaps the greatest surge was in the eighties and probably coincided with ‘classical’ Pentecostals which seemed to be the largest and fastest-growing family of Protestants Christians in the world. The five hundred millions Pentecostals/Charismatics are good estimate but I supposed this includes the Catholic Charismatics which probably came close to about 250 millions and growing.

Its history is much earlier than that. Perhaps it can be pointed out as early as the late 19th century when a certain Italian nun, Sister Elena Guerra, petition to the then Pope Leo XIII in 12 letters between 1893 and 1903 seeking renewal of the Church through devotion to the Holy Spirit.

In 1897 the Pope issued an encyclical “Divinum Illud Munus” urging devotion to the Holy Spirit and prescribing the annual nine days novena prior to Pentecost.

In December 1900 he invoked the Holy Spirit on the 20th century. Catholic Charismatics would like to believe that the 20th century was to become the age of the Holy Spirit.

In the late fifties, Pope John 23rd, many considered to be a ‘transition’ Pope, unexpectedly announced the Second Vatican Council. He died prematurely but his successor Pope Paul 6th continued with this which commenced in October 1962.

Many Catholics could not forget John XXII who prophetically said in a prayer, among others to “Renew your wonders in our time, as though for a new Pentecost, …”.

There are more to be said on how this prayer affected ordinary Catholics and the American experience in Ann Abhor, Michigan in 1967 is worth mentioned.

Catholic Charismatic experienced centered primarily on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very controversial term perhaps even persisted until today because it is actually not a Baptism. Catholics believe that a baptized person is given the Holy Spirit which is strengthened in the Sacrament of Confirmation. Catholic Charismatics believe that the Holy Spirit in them can be ‘dormant’ unless he is being ‘stirred up’ which what happened when they yield themselves to him (in the baptism of the Holy Spirit). Personally I often explain this as an infilling of the Holy Spirit which of course is inadequate too, thus the problem with the term.

The Catholic Charismatics Renewal is basically about renewal of the faith but also recognize that the charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12 can be given and experienced if the Lord so wished. Thus a truly renewed Catholic would see him/her to be even more Catholic than he/she was before in his/her ardent faith, prayer life, receiving the Sacraments, loving the word, giving service to the Church and the world at large. Of course having the charismatic gift is always an element that empowers the person in able to carry out all these not unlike the first Christians after experiencing the Holy Spirit during the Pentecost.