Ask a Pentecostal

[andrewstx]

Just some sort snippets on Catholic Charismatic.

Catholic Charismatic actually started to flourish in the early seventies and began to spread very rapidly thereafter. Perhaps the greatest surge was in the eighties and probably coincided with ‘classical’ Pentecostals which seemed to be the largest and fastest-growing family of Protestants Christians in the world. The five hundred millions Pentecostals/Charismatics are good estimate but I supposed this includes the Catholic Charismatics which probably came close to about 250 millions and growing.

Its history is much earlier than that. Perhaps it can be pointed out as early as the late 19th century when a certain Italian nun, Sister Elena Guerra, petition to the then Pope Leo XIII in 12 letters between 1893 and 1903 seeking renewal of the Church through devotion to the Holy Spirit.

In 1897 the Pope issued an encyclical “Divinum Illud Munus” urging devotion to the Holy Spirit and prescribing the annual nine days novena prior to Pentecost.

In December 1900 he invoked the Holy Spirit on the 20th century. Catholic Charismatics would like to believe that the 20th century was to become the age of the Holy Spirit.

In the late fifties, Pope John 23rd, many considered to be a ‘transition’ Pope, unexpectedly announced the Second Vatican Council. He died prematurely but his successor Pope Paul 6th continued with this which commenced in October 1962.

Many Catholics could not forget John XXII who prophetically said in a prayer, among others to “Renew your wonders in our time, as though for a new Pentecost, …”.

There are more to be said on how this prayer affected ordinary Catholics and the American experience in Ann Abhor, Michigan in 1967 is worth mentioned.

Catholic Charismatic experienced centered primarily on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very controversial term perhaps even persisted until today because it is actually not a Baptism. Catholics believe that a baptized person is given the Holy Spirit which is strengthened in the Sacrament of Confirmation. Catholic Charismatics believe that the Holy Spirit in them can be ‘dormant’ unless he is being ‘stirred up’ which what happened when they yield themselves to him (in the baptism of the Holy Spirit). Personally I often explain this as an infilling of the Holy Spirit which of course is inadequate too, thus the problem with the term.

The Catholic Charismatics Renewal is basically about renewal of the faith but also recognize that the charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12 can be given and experienced if the Lord so wished. Thus a truly renewed Catholic would see him/her to be even more Catholic than he/she was before in his/her ardent faith, prayer life, receiving the Sacraments, loving the word, giving service to the Church and the world at large. Of course having the charismatic gift is always an element that empowers the person in able to carry out all these not unlike the first Christians after experiencing the Holy Spirit during the Pentecost.

You know that is exactly why I object to the term “water” baptism. In the epistles it reads “there is ONE baptism”, just one.

I have the feeling that for some baptism of the Holy Spirit is the one that matters and regular, conventional baptism is only a powerless ritual that does nothing but make you wet.

 

[ltwin]

Pentecostal s does not believes in priesthood.

Actually, we do believe in priesthood.

They believe that all are Gods priestly people and all have priestly authorities.

We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Then why they are going to pastors for baptism?

God has ordained that there be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers within his church (Ephesians 4:11). He has directed that elders and deacons be appointed (1 Timothy 3). We have pastors because that is the way God set it up.

Why a pentecostal believer does not give baptism to his relatives, wife and children by himself.?

A Pentecostal could if he wanted. Any baptized Christian can baptize a willing convert.

Why he require service of a pastor for that?

Baptism is most often done in the context of the local church. Baptism is a central rite of the Christian faith, so it makes sense to do it in the community of faith. When things are done in the church, it is usually the pastors, elders or deacons who do them. They have been placed in positions of authority. It is a matter of order. However, there is nothing that should preclude a lay person from baptizing another lay person.

Why he goes to pastors for marriage and other ceremonies?

Marriage and other ceremonies (things like the Eucharist, baby dedications, etc.) are done in the context of the church, the family of God. They are performed at the altar. They are events in the life of the community of faith. They are done in the sight of God. It is right that they be performed by ministers to God and God’s church. They have been set aside to do these things.

If you believe that pastor have only authority to do so,

The authority doesn’t belong to pastors alone.

then why you blame the priesthood of catholic and orthodox churches?.

We disagree with the Catholic Church’s idea of a separate priesthood from the laity. We don’t think that God gives to priest alone the authority to administer sacraments.

That has nothing to do with having clergy. We can have clergy and still disagree with the Catholic Church’s concept of priesthood.

 

[Reuben_J]

We disagree with the Catholic Church’s idea of a separate priesthood from the laity. We don’t think that God gives to priest alone the authority to administer sacraments.

We believe apostleship is an office and therefore they are separated from the laity. The basis for this arise from the fact that Jesus chose the twelve and when one left and died, he was replaced. Later the succession was affected by the laying of hands.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have the feeling that for some baptism of the Holy Spirit is the one that matters and regular, conventional baptism is only a powerless ritual that does nothing but make you wet.

So basically then Jesus was merely taking a bath in river Jordan and John the Baptist was a bath nurse. lol.

Perhaps we cause the problem when we seprate it into water or spirit baptism. There is just one Baptism which is a process and in which we are marked by the seal of the Holy Spirit and initiated into God’s family. Does not matter whether we start howling with laughter on the floor after Baptism or not. Baptism is a grace which we have to respond to and to live out its promise. The Church will help and guide us in living that life.

 

[ltwin]

So basically then Jesus was merely taking a bath in river Jordan and John the Baptist was a bath nurse. lol.

That’s not what Pentecostals believe. E. N. Bell, first General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God, wrote in “Baptized Once For All”, Weekly Evangel (March 27, 1915), p. 3:

. . . It certainly does, in some sort of a sense, wash away our sins. Some would do away with baptism entirely. Others, while administering it, would deny that in any sense it washes away our sins; but we need not allow false teaching to drive us to the other extreme on the other side of the fence. We want the whole word of God. . . .

. . . So then our sins are actually taken away through the blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. and they are figuratively washed away in water baptism.

When a soul first hears the gospel, up to that hour he has been identified with the world. He is known as a sinner and stands before the community as such, especially if this be a Christian community. There should be some definite, dividing line at which he may before the world deny that old life, that old record, and declare his entrance into a new life, new realm, and his identification with a new crowd. This is exactly what God has provided in water baptism. It is the first thing that a repentant believer is commanded to do, and it is the most appropriate thing to do. While he may have confessed faith in Christ with is lips or in his heart, God has provided a ceremony, an ordinance and public method by which he may declare to the world that he is dead to the old life and alive to God. This he does by identifying himself, through faith, with Christ in his death. Recognizing that he and his old life have been crucified in Christ and put to death, he stands up and is publicly buried, figuratively into Christ’s death. He thus publicly owns himself dead, as to his old man and old manner of life before the entire community. As he is raised in the likeness of Christ’s resurrection from the watery grave, we see in this act a declaration that he is alive unto God. He is no more to be known by the old name “sinner” but henceforth as a saint; no more as a child of the devil but as a child of God. He has been espoused unto Christ and put on His name in the name Christian. He has thus publicly and officially denied his former worldly crowd and publicly acknowledged his identification with Christ and His people. Baptism in water, of itself, did not kill him to sin nor make him alive unto God. Yet he expresses both of these in a figure in his baptism. . . .​

Perhaps we cause the problem when we seprate it into water or spirit baptism. There is just one Baptism which is a process and in which we are marked by the seal of the Holy Spirit and initiated into God’s family. Does not matter whether we start howling with laughter on the floor after Baptism or not. Baptism is a grace which we have to respond to and to live out its promise. The Church will help and guide us in living that life.

Pentecostals separate the two because they are separate in Scripture. Acts 8:14-17; Acts 9:17-18; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:5-7. Pentecostals believe the pattern is generally repentance and water baptism followed by Spirit baptism, but this is just a pattern. As in Scripture, someone could be filed with the Spirit before water baptism or at the time of water baptism. A person could also repent, be baptized, and be filled all in one evening in quick succession.

 

[Reuben_J]

That’s not what Pentecostals believe. E. N. Bell, first General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God, wrote in “Baptized Once For All”, Weekly Evangel (March 27, 1915), p. 3:

I was ribbing Andrewstx. I am sorry if it seems to imply what Pentecostals believe. My usual position would not to say what non-Catholics believe unless if it is a comparison/reference to explain Catholics’ belief.

. . . It certainly does, in some sort of a sense, wash away our sins. Some would do away with baptism entirely. Others, while administering it, would deny that in any sense it washes away our sins; but we need not allow false teaching to drive us to the other extreme on the other side of the fence. We want the whole word of God. . . .

. . . So then our sins are actually taken away through the blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. and they are figuratively washed away in water baptism.

When a soul first hears the gospel, up to that hour he has been identified with the world. He is known as a sinner and stands before the community as such, especially if this be a Christian community. There should be some definite, dividing line at which he may before the world deny that old life, that old record, and declare his entrance into a new life, new realm, and his identification with a new crowd. This is exactly what God has provided in water baptism. It is the first thing that a repentant believer is commanded to do, and it is the most appropriate thing to do. While he may have confessed faith in Christ with is lips or in his heart, God has provided a ceremony, an ordinance and public method by which he may declare to the world that he is dead to the old life and alive to God. This he does by identifying himself, through faith, with Christ in his death. Recognizing that he and his old life have been crucified in Christ and put to death, he stands up and is publicly buried, figuratively into Christ’s death. He thus publicly owns himself dead, as to his old man and old manner of life before the entire community. As he is raised in the likeness of Christ’s resurrection from the watery grave, we see in this act a declaration that he is alive unto God. He is no more to be known by the old name “sinner” but henceforth as a saint; no more as a child of the devil but as a child of God. He has been espoused unto Christ and put on His name in the name Christian. He has thus publicly and officially denied his former worldly crowd and publicly acknowledged his identification with Christ and His people. Baptism in water, of itself, did not kill him to sin nor make him alive unto God. Yet he expresses both of these in a figure in his baptism. . . .​

Thanks for the explanation. The parts I have bolded are rather very Catholic with regards to Baptism.

We don’t agree with the highlighted part for obvious reasons. Baptism is not merely just a ceremony/symbol but a grace which does not always come with a sign/manifestation. It is called to faith and we believe in faith what it does.

Baptism washes all our sin and we are made as ‘white as snow’ until of course when we sin again.

Pentecostals separate the two because they are separate in Scripture. Acts 8:14-17; Acts 9:17-18; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:5-7. Pentecostals believe the pattern is generally repentance and water baptism followed by Spirit baptism, but this is just a pattern. As in Scripture, someone could be filed with the Spirit before water baptism or at the time of water baptism. A person could also repent, be baptized, and be filled all in one evening in quick succession.

As I said, Catholic Baptism’s is a grace where all sins are washed away (forgiven). We thus become new creations, buried our sins in death with Jesus and rose to life in his resurrection which you had mentioned, a reference to Paul’s. It is redundant then to separate Baptism; it contradicts the belief of ‘buried’ and ‘resurrect’ with Jesus.

Also in Baptism we are given the Holy Spirit, the appearance of the dove in Jesus’ Baptism is very telling; we are also initiated into the family of God, ‘you are my beloved Son’ in Jesus.

Thus the baptism of the Holy Spirit (note the small b) in the Charismatic Renewal is not a Baptism but rather an infilling of the Holy Spirit to ‘stir/arouse/initiate’ the Holy Spirit which is already in us by virtue of our Baptism. In many cases as many of us experienced, they can be dramatic (though for some it may be nothing at all but come gradually) experiences of conversions/turning points in our lives beginning with deep repentance; in some cases acquiring the charismatic gifts and generally become Spirit-filled Christians not very much unlike the disciples at Pentecost.

Probably this is important differentiation between Catholics and Pentecostals.

 

[ltwin]

I was ribbing Andrewstx. I am sorry if it seems to imply what Pentecostals believe. My usual position would not to say what non-Catholics believe unless if it is a comparison/reference to explain Catholics’ belief.

Understood.

As I said, Catholic Baptism’s is a grace where all sins are washed away (forgiven). We thus become new creations, buried our sins in death with Jesus and rose to life in his resurrection which you had mentioned, a reference to Paul’s. It is redundant then to separate Baptism; it contradicts the belief of ‘buried’ and ‘resurrect’ with Jesus.

Also in Baptism we are given the Holy Spirit, the appearance of the dove in Jesus’ Baptism is very telling; we are also initiated into the family of God, ‘you are my beloved Son’ in Jesus.

I think this is the difference between Catholics and Pentecostals. Pentecostals see the baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit primarily in terms of being clothed with power to be witnesses, etc. It’s purpose is to enable mission. So, acknowledging the separateness of Spirit baptism (which is about empowerment) and water baptism (which is a manifestation of faith, a sealing of spiritual commitment, a sign of the death/resurrection that is ours in Christ) is not a problem for us because we see in them two different purposes.

Of course, they are related. As I said earlier, Pentecostals see a biblical pattern: repentance, water baptism and then Spirit baptism. So, ideally, we would see conversion and an accompanying testimony of faith in Christ. We would then move to water baptism which is the burial of the old man and the appropriation of the new life offered in Christ and the washing of sins. We would then “tarry in Jerusalem” until we receive greater power and effectiveness to be witnesses in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In my case, the last two were reversed. I was Spirit baptized at a rather early age and was not water baptized until my first year of college.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Actually, we do believe in priesthood.

We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

God has ordained that there be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers within his church (Ephesians 4:11). He has directed that elders and deacons be appointed (1 Timothy 3). We have pastors because that is the way God set it up.

Mostly pentecostal s use to justify their faith that everybody are priests by misinterpreting the bible verse 1 Peter 2:9 " But you are a chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to be a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."

Here bible calls all believers as Gods choosen people and priestly people. Does it mean that no other priests are required and everybody can perform priestly duties. No.

We can see a similar verse from Old Testament , where God calls Israelies as Gods choosen people and priestly people. And at the same time we can see he chooses levies tribe for doing priestly duties.

" For me you shall be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation." Those are the words you are to say to the Israelites.’ Exodus 19:6

“Of the Israelites, I myself have chosen your brothers the Levites as a gift to you. As men dedicated, they will belong to Yahweh, to serve at the Tent of Meeting. You and your sons will undertake the priestly duties in all that concerns the altar and all that lies behind the curtain. You will perform the liturgy, the duties of which I entrust to your priesthood. But an unauthorised person approaching will incur death,’” Numbers 18:6-7

Same God who calls israelites as God’s choosen people and priestly people, chooses levites for priesthood. He also says any un authorised person does priestly duties will incur death. Why?. If all are priestly people, then why levites are chooses for priesthood?.

So it is clear that by the term priestly people, it does not mean that all are priests . But it means that in the same way priests are separated and choosed from the laypeople to serve God, likewise We are separated and choosed from the rest of humanity to serve one true God and as be a witness for him.

A Pentecostal could if he wanted. Any baptized Christian can baptize a willing convert.

Can you show one such incident from bible…?. Which bible verse leads you to believe like this?. We can see people going to Apostles and other ordained persons for their baptism. But in bible there is no such practice is mentioned that a believer baptises others without ordination.

.

Baptism is most often done in the context of the local church. Baptism is a central rite of the Christian faith, so it makes sense to do it in the community of faith. When things are done in the church, it is usually the pastors, elders or deacons who do them. They have been placed in positions of authority. It is a matter of order. However, there is nothing that should preclude a lay person from baptizing another lay person…

If all are priests then definitely then why pastors, elders and deacons?.

.

Marriage and other ceremonies (things like the Eucharist, baby dedications, etc.) are done in the context of the church, the family of God. They are performed at the altar. They are events in the life of the community of faith. They are done in the sight of God. It is right that they be performed by ministers to God and God’s church. They have been set aside to do these things.
The authority doesn’t belong to pastors alone. .

Ministers of God?. If all are priests , then everybody should be deemed as ministers of God without any special ordination. If they are selected through ordination, they are priests who differ from laity.

.

We disagree with the Catholic Church’s idea of a separate priesthood from the laity. We don’t think that God gives to priest alone the authority to administer sacraments.

That has nothing to do with having clergy. We can have clergy and still disagree with the Catholic Church’s concept of priesthood.

Bible verses you first quoted is my reply for this…

God has ordained that there be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers within his church (Ephesians 4:11). He has directed that elders and deacons be appointed (1 Timothy 3).

 

[ltwin]

Mostly pentecostal s use to justify their faith that everybody are priests by misinterpreting the bible verse 1 Peter 2:9 " But you are a chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to be a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."

Here bible calls all believers as Gods choosen people and priestly people. Does it mean that no other priests are required and everybody can perform priestly duties. No.

We can see a similar verse from Old Testament , where God calls Israelies as Gods choosen people and priestly people. And at the same time we can see he chooses levies tribe for doing priestly duties.

" For me you shall be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation." Those are the words you are to say to the Israelites.’ Exodus 19:6

“Of the Israelites, I myself have chosen your brothers the Levites as a gift to you. As men dedicated, they will belong to Yahweh, to serve at the Tent of Meeting. You and your sons will undertake the priestly duties in all that concerns the altar and all that lies behind the curtain. You will perform the liturgy, the duties of which I entrust to your priesthood. But an unauthorised person approaching will incur death,’” Numbers 18:6-7

Same God who calls israelites as God’s choosen people and priestly people, chooses levites for priesthood. He also says any un authorised person does priestly duties will incur death. Why?. If all are priestly people, then why levites are chooses for priesthood?.

So it is clear that by the term priestly people, it does not mean that all are priests . But it means that in the same way priests are separated and choosed from the laypeople to serve God, likewise We are separated and choosed from the rest of humanity to serve one true God and as be a witness for him.

Where does the Bible say that only elders can administer the Eucharist? Where is this priesthood in the New Testament? It isn’t there.

The Greek “diakanos” means a servant. The Greek “presbuteros” means elder or old man. The Greek “episkopos” means overseer. These are not “priestly” titles.

Can you show one such incident from bible…?. Which bible verse leads you to believe like this?. We can see people going to Apostles and other ordained persons for their baptism. But in bible there is no such practice is mentioned that a believer baptises others without ordination.

Biblical details on baptism is vague. There is no way we can tell who was baptizing who based on biblical accounts. Even the Catholic Church allows lay persons to baptize on certain occasions.
.

If all are priests then definitely then why pastors, elders and deacons?

Pastor means “shepherd,” so the purpose of this office is straightforward. Pastors shepherd those that have been entrusted to them. We are told in Scripture that elders exercise oversight over the church. We are also taught that they should be able to teach. We are told in Scripture that deacons were originally appointed to distribute food to the widows. They are “servants” in the church.

Ministers of God?. If all are priests , then everybody should be deemed as ministers of God without any special ordination. If they are selected through ordination, they are priests who differ from laity.

To minister to someone means to “serve” them. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom “ministers” to the Queen of England. A Christian minister “ministers” to both God and the people of God. We are all ministers. There are some of us who have been acknowledged as ministers to the body of Christ. They pastor us, they teach us, and they lead us in worship before God. Just because someone has an acknowledged teaching or pastoral ministry does not make them priests.

Bible verses you first quoted is my reply for this…

God has ordained that there be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers within his church (Ephesians 4:11). He has directed that elders and deacons be appointed (1 Timothy 3).

OK, but this doesn’t say anything about priests. The closest it comes to priests is mentioning elders (i.e. those with seniority) and deacons (i.e. servants).

 

[jerry_joseph]

Where does the Bible say that only elders can administer the Eucharist? Where is this priesthood in the New Testament? It isn’t there.

The Greek “diakanos” means a servant. The Greek “presbuteros” means elder or old man. The Greek “episkopos” means overseer. These are not “priestly” titles…

It is clearly mentioned in NT of bible, that apostoles selects pesons for administer priestly duties.

“So the Twelve called a full meeting of the disciples and addressed them, ‘It would not be right for us to neglect the word of God so as to give out food; you, brothers, must select from among yourselves seven men of good reputation, filled with the Spirit and with wisdom, to whom we can hand over this duty. We ourselves will continue to devote ourselves to prayer and to the service of the word.’ The whole assembly approved of this proposal and elected Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus of Antioch, a convert to Judaism.They presented these to the apostles, and after prayer they laid their hands on them.” Acts 6:2-6

Here it is clear that apostles selects few persons from the believers for priestly duties and laid their hands on them to give authority of priests.

If all are priests , then why few are selected from them and apostoles laid their hands on them for apointing them as priests?. As per your faith , there is no requirement for this. Anybody can perform priestly duties randomly.

In NT , bible calls christians as Gods chosen people , Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9 " But you are a chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to be a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."

It is from here pentecostal belief that all are priests comes from. But a perosn who know the bible , can easily understand that , Apostle peter quoted the same word in OT which God used to denote the israelies as Gods chosen race, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, to teach that church is new israel and christians are Gods choosen race, kingdom of priests and a holy nation .

" For me you shall be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation." Those are the words you are to say to the Israelites.’ Exodus 19:6

“Of the Israelites, I myself have chosen your brothers the Levites as a gift to you. As men dedicated, they will belong to Yahweh, to serve at the Tent of Meeting. You and your sons will undertake the priestly duties in all that concerns the altar and all that lies behind the curtain. You will perform the liturgy, the duties of which I entrust to your priesthood. But an unauthorised person approaching will incur death,’” Numbers 18:6-7

Same God who calls israelites as God’s chosen people and priestly people, chooses levites for priesthood. He also says any un authorised person does priestly duties will incur death. Why?. If all are priestly people, then why levites are chooses for priesthood?.

Can you show one verse from bible that Priests are not required in christianity. Everybody can perform priestly duites.?

So it is clear that by the term priestly people, it does not mean that all can perform priestly duties. But it means that in the same way priests are separated and chosen from the laypeople to serve God, likewise christians are separated and chosen from the rest of humanity to serve one true God and as be a witness for him.

 

[ltwin]

It is clearly mentioned in NT of bible, that apostoles selects pesons for administer priestly duties.

[Snipped in order to shorten post] Acts 6:2-6

Here it is clear that apostles selects few persons from the believers for priestly duties and laid their hands on them to give authority of priests.

What “priestly duties?” The deacons were chosen to hand out food to the Christian widows. The laying on of hands does not have to signify that the apostles gave them the “authority of priests.” Hands were laid on people for a variety of reasons, such as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts and impartation of spiritual gifts in 1 Timothy. Most certainly they were being set apart as deacons (servants) of the church, but nowhere does that indicate them being consecrated as priests.

And by the way, it is clear from the biblical account that the deacons were not selected by the apostles. The apostles told the congregation “you, brothers, must select from among yourselves seven men of good reputation, filled with the Spirit and with wisdom, to whom we can hand over this duty.” The task for choosing deacons was given to the congregation as a whole.

If all are priests , then why few are selected from them and apostoles laid their hands on them for apointing them as priests?. As per your faith , there is no requirement for this. Anybody can perform priestly duties randomly.

They were not appointed as priests. They were appointed to oversee the logistical details of the church’s common life. This was to give the apostles the freedom to devote themselves “to prayer and to the service of the word.” If the church is to function correctly, there needs to be organization and leadership. Appointing leaders and “servants” with responsibility to make sure the church’s purpose and mission get done is absolutely necessary.

In NT , bible calls christians as Gods chosen people , Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9 " But you are a chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to be a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."

It is from here pentecostal belief that all are priests comes from. But a perosn who know the bible , can easily understand that , Apostle peter quoted the same word in OT which God used to denote the israelies as Gods chosen race, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, to teach that church is new israel and christians are Gods choosen race, kingdom of priests and a holy nation .

[Snipped to shorten post length]

Same God who calls israelites as God’s chosen people and priestly people, chooses levites for priesthood. He also says any un authorised person does priestly duties will incur death. Why?. If all are priestly people, then why levites are chooses for priesthood?.

Can you show one verse from bible that Priests are not required in christianity. Everybody can perform priestly duites.?

So it is clear that by the term priestly people, it does not mean that all can perform priestly duties. But it means that in the same way priests are separated and chosen from the laypeople to serve God, likewise christians are separated and chosen from the rest of humanity to serve one true God and as be a witness for him.

Can you show me one verse that says priests are required in Christianity? Where are we told that Christians need priests to do things that they cannot do themselves? Where are we told that priests have the power to change bread and wine into the body of Christ? Where are we told that priests are needed to confess our sins? Where are we told any of this?

We are told that overseers and deacons are needed. We are told that Christ has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor-teachers, those with the gift of discernment, those with gifts of knowledge and wisdom, those with gifts of healings and mercy, and those with diverse kinds of tongues and those who can interpret tongues. All of these gifts work together in the body of Christ just as all the members of a physical body work together.

We are told that “When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation” (1 Corinthians 14). The simple fact is that all Christians are priests. We all have a priestly ministry. We all have been called to be reconcilers. We have all been called to ministry of one kind or other. Some have been called to a pastoral or teaching ministry and others have been given the gift of faith and of miracles. Some have been gifted with wisdom or skills as administrators. Some have a prophetic ministry and others have been given discernment. Some have been called to full time ministry so that they can dedicate themselves fully to prayer and evangelism. Others also have a secular calling in which they serve as Christian witnesses to those they meet in their everyday lives.

We’re never going to agree on this. The Catholic Church has its belief about clergy, and Pentecostals have ours. I’ve explained the Pentecostal view which is, to summarize: Pentecostals do not see any contradiction in having biblical offices (such as pastor) while not having a separate priesthood apart from the laity.

 

[peace2u2]

What “priestly duties?” Most certainly they were being set apart as deacons (servants) of the church, but nowhere does that indicate them being consecrated as priests.

And by the way, it is clear from the biblical account that the deacons were not selected by the apostles. The apostles told the congregation “you, brothers, must select from among yourselves seven men of good reputation, filled with the Spirit and with wisdom, to whom we can hand over this duty.” The task for choosing deacons was given to the congregation as a whole.

They were not appointed as priests. They were appointed to oversee the logistical details of the church’s common life. This was to give the apostles the freedom to devote themselves “to prayer and to the service of the word.” If the church is to function correctly, there needs to be organization and leadership. Appointing leaders and “servants” with responsibility to make sure the church’s purpose and mission get done is absolutely necessary.

Can you show me one verse that says priests are required in Christianity? Where are we told that Christians need priests to do things that they cannot do themselves? Where are we told that priests have the power to change bread and wine into the body of Christ? Where are we told that priests are needed to confess our sins? Where are we told any of this?

We’re never going to agree on this. The Catholic Church has its belief about clergy, and Pentecostals have ours. I’ve explained the Pentecostal view which is, to summarize: Pentecostals do not see any contradiction in having biblical offices (such as pastor) while not having a separate priesthood apart from the laity.

Your probably right about not agreeing. Perhaps pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you and to open your heart and your mind to all that God would like to reveal to you through Scripture NOT**** what you prefer to see revealed. There is a big difference.

I find that God speaks to me thru Scripture at Mass when I don’t know what the Mass Readings are going to be. I just show up during the week spontaneously and God always reveals thru Scripture in this manner something that I am struggling with.

I recommend reading thru the link I provided as it does an amazing job of listing all those Bible references that you seek for justification of the difference between the common priesthood and the ministerial priesthood. After, pray for God to send His Holy Spirit with the gift of Courage and go to a Catholic Church for Mass perhaps daily Mass during the week, spontaneously, just show up and see if God speaks to you through the Scripture readings. You just might be amazed at what God is trying to reveal to you. Just go with an open heart and an open mind.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

Also try to remember that Jesus Himself is the source of the Church’s authority. Jesus founded the Church, created its structure, placed Peter at the head and gave the Church His own authority, identified it with himself, promised to be with it forever, and sent His Holy Spirit to guide it.

 

[PaulDupre1]

We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

So does the Catholic Church, The “common priesthood of the baptized” aka the “common priesthood of all believers” is clearly taught and explained in the CCC.

Its duties are different from the Ordained Priesthood, though each is ordered toward the other, as the CCC explains.

Paul

 

[jerry_joseph]

What “priestly duties?” The deacons were chosen to hand out food to the Christian widows. The laying on of hands does not have to signify that the apostles gave them the “authority of priests.” Hands were laid on people for a variety of reasons, such as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts and impartation of spiritual gifts in 1 Timothy. Most certainly they were being set apart as deacons (servants) of the church, but nowhere does that indicate them being consecrated as priests.

2 Tim 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
Paul describes the “faithful people” who are to hand on God’s Revelation and carry on principal Church functions.

The first category of “faithful people” is episcopoi, bishops.

1 Tim 3:1-2
This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop (episcopes) desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop (episcopon) must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach
Tit 1:7,9
For a bishop (episcopon) as God’s steward must be blameless, … holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
The second category of “faithful people” is presbyteroi, the presbyters, priests, elders.

Tit 1:5-6
Appoint presbyters (presbyterois) in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.
1 Tim 5:17
Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
The third category of “faithful people” is diaconoi, deacons.

1 Tim 4:6,13,16
If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister (diakonos) of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed. … Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching. Attend to yourself and to your teaching.
1 Tim 3:8-9
Similarly, deacons (diaconos) must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
It is clear from Paul’s writings that he and the Apostolic Church were aware that order in the Church was conferred by the imposition of hands.

2 Tim 1:6
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands.
1 Tim 4:14
Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.
Paul reminds Timothy that the imposition of hands on another is not to be taken lightly.

1 Tim 5:22
Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins.
Paul himself was ordered or ordained by the leaders of the Church at Antioch.

Acts 13:2-3
While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.
The Acts of the Apostles testifies to the belief and practice of creating orders in the early Church.

Acts 14:23
They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.
Acts 6:6
They presented these men (seven diaconoi) to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.
Acts 8:17
Then they (Peter and John) laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

 

[jerry_joseph]

And by the way, it is clear from the biblical account that the deacons were not selected by the apostles. The apostles told the congregation “you, brothers, must select from among yourselves seven men of good reputation, filled with the Spirit and with wisdom, to whom we can hand over this duty.” The task for choosing deacons was given to the congregation as a whole.

It is clear that church suggested the names of those persons and they got authority only after apostoles acknowledged their selection and laid hands on them.

They were not appointed as priests. They were appointed to oversee the logistical details of the church’s common life. This was to give the apostles the freedom to devote themselves “to prayer and to the service of the word.” If the church is to function correctly, there needs to be organization and leadership. Appointing leaders and “servants” with responsibility to make sure the church’s purpose and mission get done is absolutely necessary.

At last you agreed if church is to function correctly their needs to be organization and leadership. Same like catholic and orthodox churches, well organized and with good leaderships.

Can you show me one verse that says priests are required in Christianity?

Can you tell me one verse priests are not required in Christianity. ?.

Where are we told that Christians need priests to do things that they cannot do themselves? Where are we told that priests have the power to change bread and wine into the body of Christ?

“You will perform the liturgy, the duties of which I entrust to your priesthood. But an unauthorised person approaching will incur death,’” Numbers 18:6-7

Bible clearly mentions that an unauthorised persons are not allowed to do priestly duties.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Where are we told that priests are needed to confess our sins? Where are we told any of this?

"Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, ‘My child, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some scribes were sitting there, and they thought to themselves, ‘How can this man talk like that? He is being blasphemous. Who but God can forgive sins?’ Mark 2: 5-7

Now a days we can hear the same voice of Pharisees ( who opposed the authority of son of man to forgive sins of others), from pentecostals. Now they are opposing the authority given by son of man to his disciples to forgive sins of others.

“If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.” John 20:23

If sins can be forgiven only through telling directly to God, then why Jesus gave this authority to his disciples?. What is the purpose of that?.

" if you forgive anybody, then I too forgive that person; and whatever I have forgiven, if there is anything I have forgiven, I have done it for your sake in Christ’s presence," 2 Corinthians 2:10

Here apostle says that whatever forgiven by him is forgiven by christ and he is doing the same in behalf of Christ.

“It is all God’s work; he reconciled us to himself through Christ and he gave us the ministry of reconciliation. I mean, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not holding anyone’s faults against them, but entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ; it is as though God were urging you through us, and in the name of Christ we appeal to you to be reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5: 17- 20

If this ministry of reconciliation does not means forgiveness of sin (confession) then what?. Here apostles calls them as ambassadors for christ. If all who believe in christ are priests, then why apostles considers them as ambassadors for christ.?.

 

[Brandall]

Pentecostal s does not believes in priesthood. They believe that all are Gods priestly people and all have priestly authorities. Then why they are going to pastors for baptism?. Why a pentecostal believer does not give baptism to his relatives, wife and children by himself.? Why he require service of a pastor for that?. Why he goes to pastors for marriage and other ceremonies?. If you believe that pastor have only authority to do so, then why you blame the priesthood of catholic and orthodox churches?.

A priest or a minister is not necessary for Baptism. The Catholic Church accepts any trinitarian baptism with converts.

 

[peace2u2]

There are 3 orders of Holy Orders.

Apostles - Bishops - taken from the word “episcopacy”
Priests - taken from the word “presbyterate”
Deacons - taken from the word “diaconate”

For example, St. Ignatius (A.D. 110) was the third bishop of Antioch, who succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter (yes, the same Peter that you read of in Sacred Scripture).

St. Ignatius is given the title of “Apostolic Father” of the Church since he was a disciple of the Apostle John (yes, the same Apostle John that you read of in Sacred Scripture).

Ignatius was bishop of Antioch during the reign of the Roman emperor Trajen (98-117), a persecutor of the Christian Church. Behind the Apostles, St. Ignatius is perhaps the most famous name associated with the early Church.

What we know of him stems from his written letters. In his letter to the Trallians, he states,

“Let everyone revere the deacons as Jesus Christ, the bishop as the image of the Father, and the presbyters as the senate of God and the assembly of the apostles. For without them one cannot speak of the Church.”

 

[andrewstx]

Itwin, I have noticed you have a proclivity for the SC ex Episcopalians. But if you think they will give up their Bishops, Priests, and Deacons and make everyone the same as everyone else you are very much mistaken.

They will not begin teaching two baptisms either.

There is one Lord
one faith
ONE baptism
one God and Father of us all.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, I have noticed you have a proclivity for the SC ex Episcopalians.

Well, I am interested in the Anglican tradition, the history of it, and I’m routing for the Episcopalians in South Carolina (my home state) in their struggle to maintain orthodoxy in their church.

But if you think they will give up their Bishops, Priests, and Deacons and make everyone the same as everyone else you are very much mistaken.

I’m not asking them too. (Anyway, I don’t need to. Southern Episcopalians have always been “congregationally” oriented and Episcopalians everywhere are into the “democratic process” of having all laity and clergy involved in decision making. This situation emerged during the colonial period when there were no Anglican bishops in the colonies. As a result, parishes were controlled by the most influential residents.)

Most South Carolina Episcopalians are orthodox Christians, and I see no reason to want to see them convert to Pentecostalism. Let them grow where God planted them.

They will not begin teaching two baptisms either.

There is one Lord
one faith
ONE baptism
one God and Father of us all.

I’ve never made it my mission to “convert” Episcopalians. I can appreciate their biblical witness while holding Pentecostal convictions. I can find things to appreciate in the Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and even the Catholic traditions.