Ask A Protestant

[tomo_pomo]

Exactly what it says. Christ’s victory is insurmountable.

you are answering instead of OP?
Yes, exactly what it says. He said it to Peter that he will build Church on him, which is Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. What are your thoughts on that.

A nonsensical polemic.

This is exactly why I can’t get answer. Jesus said He will build a Church on Peter. He, Jesus Himself will build it on Peter. Peter went out and upon Peter Church was build. Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. And exactly that Church Jesus said The hell will not prevail. Lineage of that “unbeatable” Church is still here in Catholic Church. But Protestants are saying exactly that Catholic church is corrupted and satan came into it, so: hell prevailed it. That’s what the Protestant say.

Please explain

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Exactly what it says. Christ’s victory is insurmountable.

Except phrase says that Church will not be beaten by Hell… not that Christ’s victory won’t.

Of course it won’t. Because of Christ

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Of course it won’t. Because of Christ

Oh I do agree with it… I am simply saying that passage speaks about Church. I am not implying Christ’s victory can be defeated or anything like that. That was very unfortunate phrasing from me…

 

[JonNC]

you are answering instead of OP?

The OP. Can give his/her perspective, too.

Yes, exactly what it says. He said it to Peter that he will build Church on him, which is Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. What are your thoughts on that.

I confess one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church just as you do. I just don’t believe it exists only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Jesus said He will build a Church on Peter.

Two thoughts.

1. it remains disputed as to whether Christ was saying Peter the man, his confession of faith, or specifically what he confessed. I tend to think it is a combination of all of that. Peter’s leadership among the apostles is undeniable.
2. we as Lutherans do not deny St. Peter, so there is no reason to deny his role in the Church and Christ’s promise for it.

Peter went out and upon Peter Church was build. Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. And exactly that Church Jesus said The hell will not prevail.

Amen, though clearly Peter did not build the Church himself.

And exactly that Church Jesus said The hell will not prevail.

Of which all baptized are members.

Lineage of that “unbeatable” Church is still here in Catholic Church.

Certainly the Catholic Church is an important part of it.

But Protestants are saying exactly that Catholic church is corrupted and satan came into it, so: hell prevailed it. That’s what the Protestant say.

Which Protestant? I certainly don’t say that. A Lutheran should never say that. We believe the Church is the congregation of believers where the word is preached and sacraments administered. That happens in the Catholic Church. Human errors in teaching do not interfere with that.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Of course it won’t. Because of Christ

Oh I do agree with it… I am simply saying that passage speaks about Church. I am not implying Christ’s victory can be defeated or anything like that. That was very unfortunate phrasing from me…

I think we agree. Scripture says the Spirit will guide us into all truth. That is an active, ongoing event. Errors do not stop that from continuing.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Errors do not stop that from continuing.

Yes. Christians can get in error, but faith of Church is immaculate. Lord told Peter that He prayed that Peter’s fail shall not fail… and that he will strengthen his brethren.

 

[lanman87]

That is a lot of questions. It will probably take several post to answer them, and I’m not a theologian or expert. A simple lay person doing my best to understand.

So, who truly knows who has a good heart bearing fruit out of good soil?

I take this question to mean, how can we know that we are one of the ones “Given to Christ by the Father”.
My answer is that it is a two fold process. One is internal and personal and the other is external and evidentiary.

First the internal. Which is the indwelling Spirit, which we believe is given at conversion, we do not hold that Baptism automatically gives the Holy Spirit to a person. When we receive the Spirit is another topic that I will not get into here. The key point is the Spirit gives our hearts witness that we are indeed Children of God. This can be seen in several passages.

Romans 8:16. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God
Romans 5:5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us
Galatians 4: 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts
1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

I could go on but you get the idea. The first way we know we are indeed “Children of God” is because of the testimony and work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

The second way we know we are children of God is because we have been changed. Our affections are changed and as a result our actions are changed. This change in heart (by the Holy Spirit) is what causes us to repent of sin, confess our sins to one another, love our neighbor, help those in need and so forth.

It seems that there are two ways we can be deceived. One is, “I’ve prayed and prayer and ask God to forgive me and now I’m a Christian”. And the other is "I’m following the rules and doing what my preacher/priest says and doing my best to be a good person, therefore I’m a Christian.

From the way I see it, both of those are faulty reasoning. We can pray and ask for forgiveness all day long, but if our heart isn’t changed and our lives aren’t different then we are fooling ourselves into believe we are a Christian.

We can also follow the “rules” and do our best to be righteous and holy, but without a heart change we are still fooling ourselves. That turns the Gospel from good news to good advice. When end up trying to save ourselves by our righteousness instead of relying on Christ and what he has done to save us.

1 John 5:13 says I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

In 1 John you see the evidence and how we can know we have eternal life as being both Spiritual evidence as in 1 John 4:13 and external evidence as in 1 John 4 :7.

We know we have eternal life when the Spirit gives witness to our spirit that we are children of God and when that Spirit produces fruit in our life. If both of those things aren’t happening then we should question our status.

 

[lanman87]

Many Protestant groups forbid baptism and the Lord’s Supper to youth. Commonly, they wait until the youth are teenagers and more naturally able to provide “a credible profession of faith”?

Is that so different than the early church, who would wait up to three years before baptizing someone who wanted to join the church, or today’s Catholic church who sends people through RCIA and baptizes on Easter?

Most Southern Baptist churches will baptize children starting at around 4-5 years old. When my children were baptized the minister spent time with them and asked them questions, in order to determine if they understood about sin, faith, and repentance. If the child seemed to have a good understanding then they would proceed with the Baptism. If not, they would council to delay the baptism until the child understood their need for forgiveness and the need for repentance.

Thankfully, that practice is also starting to be used more and more with teenagers and adults.

 

[lanman87]

Do Baptist leaders truly know who is “saved” and who is “not saved”? Do not many of the baptized later fall away?

We assume, based on someones profession of faith, that they have indeed “been saved”. However, in practice we know that is not always the truth. As people makes profession of faith for a variety of reasons and it is not always because they have been truly converted. We try our best to make sure someone truly understands faith and repentance and sanctification, in other words, to make sure they have truly been converted. But if you have been raised in church and know the “church answers” then it is easy to make others think you have been converted when you really haven’t. It is also easy to fool yourself into thinking you have been converted, just because you know the “church answers”.

We sometimes have people, even longtime church members or leaders, confess that they had never truly been converted because their conversion experience was due to peer pressure or to please a parent instead of an actual encounter with Christ.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

We can pray and ask for forgiveness all day long, but if our heart isn’t changed and our lives aren’t different then we are fooling ourselves into believe we are a Christian.

I agree. At the same time, I also believe heart can change back. Based on personal experience- when someone converts to Christianity, they usually get this zeal that changes them. I myself stopped swearing, started attending Mass and had humility in me. I remember those days, things were so easy because Lord was with me all the time and I was with him all the time. I was in constant prayer as Apostle Paul explains it- though I did not know at the time. I do really believe that if there was a time I was closest to being true Christian, that was the time. Then zeal disappeared and things got harder, I started doubting God and especially that He is there with me. That of course struck my relationship with him and led to pretty long period where I would still believe in God but our relationship was not the best. The fruits of good works came, the belief was real and I trusted God through it all. I wouldn’t say my conversion was insincere… yet I could endanger my salvation years later. Which is what leads me to rejection of Protestant belief of “once saved always saved”.

who would wait up to three years before baptizing someone who wanted to join the church,

While that is true, in times of Early Church people were hardly familiar with Christianity. It was much harder to teach them Christian ways when their ways were pagan before. I am not saying our society is perfect but Christianity is widely known at least. Also, what is different is that babies were not denied baptism in Early Church.

 

[lanman87]

I agree. At the same time, I also believe heart can change back.

I guess the questions is, If God changes our heart, do we have the power to override God and change it back? And does that mean the Father has cast those out and will not raise them up on the last day? If so, how does that jive with John 6:37-40?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

John 6:37-40?

“I will never drive away” means our Lord will not ever drive us away from Him and will accept everyone. Problem comes when we go away from Him. Then our Lord came to do Father’s will but that still relies on our cooperation. Everything start with God but God does not choose some to save and others to damn- he offers salvation to everyone.

 

[lanman87]

“I will never drive away” means our Lord will not ever drive us away from Him and will accept everyone. Problem comes when we go away from Him

Even if you mean it to be drive away instead of cast away or expel or remove. The meaning is still the same. In verse 38 He says, “I will lose none of those He has given me”.

 

[lanman87]

The disciples of Jesus found this to be a hard saying in the “Bread of Life Discourse” of the same John Chapter 6 that you quoted: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.” (John 6:56-57).

Needless to say, we do not hold a literal approach to what it means to eat His flesh and drink His blood. That topic has been debated over and over again on this board and elsewhere so I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[lanman87]

Almighty God maintained a Holy Presence among the Jews in the Temple. Only high priests (like Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist) could minister there and only at designated times. During King David’s time, Uzzah lost his life when the Presence of God was not properly reverenced. At age 12, Jesus was found in the Temple near the Presence of God doing his Father’s business. Christ is a Real Presence among his people in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper/Eucharist. We do well to “do business” with the Trinity via the Eucharist.

Our belief is that went the Temple veil was torn during the crucifixion that it signified a change in how God meets and relates to man. It signified that the barrier between God and man was removed. We no longer have need for Priest to offer or present sacrifices or enter the Holy of Holies on our behalf. We are all Priest and Christ is our High Priest as His sacrifice was the one sacrifice once for all. When his sacrifice was complete Christ sat down and the right hand of God and is there waiting for his enemies to be made a footstool for His feet.

We no longer enter the Temple, instead we have become the Temple, the dwelling place of God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore the Presence of God is in us who are filled with His Spirit.

 

[ArchStanton]

We no longer have need for Priest

That would go against Jude.

Blessings!

 

[lanman87]

That would go against Jude.

Where? 12345

 

[ArchStanton]

Where? 12345

Jude 11 Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

 

[lanman87]

What does that have to do with Priest?

 

[ArchStanton]

What does that have to do with Priest?

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
High Priest [Aaron]
Levitical Priesthood
General priesthood of the rest of the believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25) ,
The Ministerial Priests ( James 5:14-15; John 20:23; 2 Cor 5:18)
The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9) .

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments , the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type .

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude , we read the warning about those who would depose Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 11) . In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16) .

Jude 11 Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Numbers 16:10 He has allowed you and your Levite kinsmen with you to approach him, and yet you seek the priesthood too.

Blessings!