Ask a Unitarian Universalist

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This one surprises me. If the law should err on the side of caution, how can anyone allow a permanent, and non-correctable punishment (like capital punishment) to occur?
I know, right?
Flawed human beings implement this policy ! I regularly read anecdotes of inconsistent enforcement, weak legal defense for the accused, etc. in the implementation of capital punishment.
It is indeed a flawed system.
Of course, punishment for a crime is reasonable. Life in jail is a punishment. Why is this not considered a reasonable enough punishment for a heinous crime?
I think you are operating under some misapprehensions here, Tom. Catholicism does indeed consider these reasonable enough punishments for heinous crimes.
Many Catholics and Christians like to evangelize. Wouldn’t you want to take every opportunity to evangelize to a sinful soul (like a murderer) to atone for his sins? To encourage to repent? Confess? I think of some fine things that Charles Colson (of the Watergate era) did in prison ministry. Why the rush? An eternal soul is at stake, but, no, to quote Carole King ‘It’s too late, baby, now it’s too late!’
Very Catholic, this!
If the state decided that torture, or the intentional deprivation of food/water, was an appropriate punishment, would you accept that?
Absolutely not! :eek:
 
What do you think is an appropriate legal penalty for a woman who has an abortion? And for the doctor/nurse etc that perform it?
I don’t know. I don’t invest too much thought into legal penalties.

I have invested most of my apologia in attempting to provide reasonable, thoughtful reasons why it’s untenable for any moral person to be pro-choice.

Logic dictates that either the fetus is a human person or it is not.

If it is a human person, then it ought not be murdered, no matter what the circumstances of the mother.

Any argument that is offered for the killing of the fetus ought to be reasonably applied to a 2 year old toddler as well.
 
I don’t think that is my argument. I have not posited that you have ever claimed that you understood God (completely).

I am presenting this for you to consider: why does the God you worship agree with all of your own personal moralities?

Does it not stand to reason that the God of the Universe is going to decree some sorts of challenges to your own morality to cause you to conform to His Law.

Do not find a church that has set up Major Tom’s Law = God’s Law.

If you cannot say: God’s Law is [fill in the blank] but I really, really prefer/believe/wish that it were not so…

then you have created a god in your own image.
You might not have posted that anyone understands God completely. But you do keep suggesting people create a God in their own image. To which I think Tom makes a valid point that if he created God in his image, he would be at home looking at himself in the mirror and not at Sunday service.

Though I am not of either religion, I have little doubt in comparison to UU’s 7 principles, that Catholics with their vast array of catechism, dogma, doctrine, teachings, and disciplines would be more likely to find themselves disagreeing with something when they first enter into faith and then having to conform to it. Though Tom made the point that even for a UU who for instance opposed homosexuality, that might be something in which they would have to perhaps change in order to conform to the UU principle of respecting the worth and dignity of every human person.

I don’t think though there necessarily has to be disagreement with something at first in order to not create God in our own images. When a person believes they are in the right church or religion in which they will be led to God’s Truth, whether or not their original beliefs just so happen to match God’s or not, they are in either case not only going to conform but are going to adhere to (fill in the blank religion). In doing so they are not forming God to their image. But following what they believe to be God’s.
 
Services are not that far afield from Christian services in format. In addition to the collection and announcements (a book of Joys and Sorrows that anyone can write in), there is a reading/meditation, followed by a sung response. The range of options for the reading can include writers/works that are Hindu, Jewish, Christian, humanist… (Last week’s was from the Book of Psalms).

The meat of the service is a sermon, similar to the Catholic homily. Last week’s theme was on management. Our guest minister spoke of Jesus’s experiences in the final week before the crucifixion. What can we learn from that experience to manage our own pain and difficulties? Is there a limit to what we can plan and manage?

The pallete of music in our services is broader, and can include classical music in addition to the conventional Christian songs in our songbook (The first service I attended featured the Beatles’ ‘Eleanor Rigby’ sung by our choir, to accompany that day’s theme on suffering).

In terms of labelling, the “Christian-UU” identification came specifically from the history of early Unitarian congregations that were built, in part, on the traditions of Christianity. That identity is still intentionally retained by some individual congregations. Beyond that, any identification as a Hindu-UU, Jewish-UU, etc. is a personal identification, not really shared by the entire congregation per se. Although those traditions are woven into the content of services (There’s also a higher-than-average desire by many to skip the hyphens and avoid labelling all together!)
Tom, are the weekly readings and theme the same at each UU service for that given wk?
 
Our congregation has a membership book, but no formal donation requirement. To those not familiar with UU’s: we have a demonstrably democratic streak. The seating of permanent pastors is a matter that’s voted on by the congregants, for example. Our congregation recently debated whether or not to require a yearly donation in order to maintain membership (and voting rights). The matter was settled by requiring a yearly contribution (but only $1).
I did dig deeper into my local UU’s site and what they do is to ask members to consider giving between 2 and 5% of adjusted gross income.
 
Capital punishment does not act as a defense, nor is the subjected an aggressor at time of punishment.
There is only one exception under which we, as Catholics, can approve of capital punishment. That is when detaining one who threatens society behind bars is not enough to stop them from committing another crime (such as murder). This is extremely rare, such as a crime boss who can still run things from prison. If detaining a person stops them from committing any further crimes of this nature then we cannot put them to death.

So capital punishment is a defense as much as a punishment, in that sense.
 
You belong to a cult (yes, a cult) that denies the divinity of Jesus Christ. We Catholics will pray for you that you may one day learn and grow enough to come to the fullness of Truth which is the Catholic Church. Peace be with you.
I’m pretty sure that this example of “self declared righteousness” is why they deliberately start from a common ground.

Individuals within UU are free to build upon the shared base. I would say, guided by God, but that’s just me.

This freedom from a standardized dogma helps them avoid the kind of “sin” that you have just demonstrated.

Peace be with you as well.
 
Though Tom made the point that even for a UU who for instance opposed homosexuality, that might be something in which they would have to perhaps change in order to conform to the UU principle of respecting the worth and dignity of every human person.
Why does opposing homosexuality have to translate into not respecting the worth and dignity of every human person? As Catholics, we must respect the worth and dignity of homosexual persons. We do not have to respect a lifestyle that is in contradiction to God’s own laws, however. So we respect the worth and dignity of every person even though we may reject what they do.
 
It’s the church shopping phenomenon that I am so astonished by. Going to a church every weekend to hear what the pastor preaches, and if he happens to preach things that you agree with, you join that church. If he says something that you don’t like, “God does not want you to divorce and re-marry!”, then you quietly seek a church that teaches, “God doesn’t care if you divorce and re-marry!”. Funny that god just happens to agree with your own sensibilities, eh?
I can see a point in what you are saying, insofar as it is also illustrated through interpersonal relationships. People sometimes push away from those who not tell them what they want to hear, and would prefer to keep company with people who do tell them what they want to hear. What they often realize is that the people who were giving them constructive criticism were the ones who really cared, and the people who agreed with them in everything were the ones who did not particularly care.

So I understand the logic of suspecting that a homosexual, for example, will be told “your behavior was a sin”; or a young man will be told, “your engaging in pre-marital sex is a sin” and he (or she) will go to a church that makes life less difficult for them, that proves itself to be less of a “nuisance.”

Of course, just because something is not what you want to hear, does not make it true; and just because something is what you want to hear, does not make it untrue. An example of the latter would be “God loves you”, while an example of the former would be, “all of us, without exception, will spend an eternity in hell.”

There’s also a distinction between something that is contrary to your desires (to your id, even) and contrary to your moral conscience.

For example, when a non-homosexual person leaves a Catholic or Evangelical Protestant church, because he does not agree with its teaching on homosexuality, it is usually because it goes against his conscience and his sense of empathy. He himself is not a homosexual, so his “id” gets no gratification from his saying, “I cannot accept that.” But it’s his conscience that tells him that this is unacceptable, and that he chooses not to believe it; or that, indeed, he cannot believe it.

Another example would be if some church said that you have to kill those who do not subscribe to your religion, because they do not subscribe to your religion. Surely, you do not want to hear it, and you may refuse to accept that God would ever command that; yet it is not your id that is involved in your sense of revolt, but your moral conscience.

A final example would be that of a woman in Islam. A woman may feel degraded, humiliated by certain teachings vis-a-vis women. So, she may decide to leave the Church. Yet it would be too easy to say “Hannah left because she didn’t want the Church of Allah, but rather she went to find the Church of Hannah.” There is a complex interaction between a. what she wants; b. what she believes is true (for example, she may find arguments of the intellectual or spiritual inferiority of women to be completely unconvincing); c. what her own conscience dictates, not merely for herself as a woman, but for all women, or for her daughters.
 
There is only one exception under which we, as Catholics, can approve of capital punishment. That is when detaining one who threatens society behind bars is not enough to stop them from committing another crime (such as murder). This is extremely rare, such as a crime boss who can still run things from prison. If detaining a person stops them from committing any further crimes of this nature then we cannot put them to death.

So capital punishment is a defense as much as a punishment, in that sense.
Or when he’s a terrorist and his fellow terrorists are in a position to seize hostages and demand his release - I saw a movie with that storyline, can’t remember the name of it, it was about the Cold War and the prisoner was Soviet . . .🤷

Like for instance, if the US had captured Bin Laden alive and it led to a situation like that, it would be bad.
 
Your question about medical waste seemed to imply that any prematurely born baby would be treated as medical waste, and that was the implication I was questioning. I wasn’t making any other statement. As I said, if there is viability as determined by a doctor, then there is an actual child.
Hi, UU, So you believe doctors decide when life is viable ? How do you come to this conclusion ?:coffee:

God Bless
 
Of course, just because something is not what you want to hear, does not make it true; and just because something is what you want to hear, does not make it untrue. An example of the latter would be “God loves you”, while an example of the former would be, “all of us, without exception, will spend an eternity in hell.”
You are correct.
There’s also a distinction between something that is contrary to your desires (to your id, even) and contrary to your moral conscience.
Indeed.
For example, when a non-homosexual person leaves a Catholic or Evangelical Protestant church, because he does not agree with its teaching on homosexuality, it is usually because it goes against his conscience and his sense of empathy. He himself is not a homosexual, so his “id” gets no gratification from his saying, “I cannot accept that.” But it’s his conscience that tells him that this is unacceptable, and that he chooses not to believe it; or that, indeed, he cannot believe it.
Exactly.

So my point is that it is extremely suspicious to me when a person’s conscience happens to agree completely with everything that his church happens to teach.

IF there is a God, He is going to make moral demands on us that cause our moral sensibilities to squirm a bit.

The Catholic understanding is that we need to re-examine our consciences to conform to Christ.

The UU paradigm seems to be, “Well, God didn’t say anything that disagrees with my own moral sensibilities.”

That seems utterly unlikely, don’t you think, Portofino?
 
Or when he’s a terrorist and his fellow terrorists are in a position to seize hostages and demand his release - I saw a movie with that storyline, can’t remember the name of it, it was about the Cold War and the prisoner was Soviet . . .🤷

Like for instance, if the US had captured Bin Laden alive and it led to a situation like that, it would be bad.
Yes, I am sure there are many scenarios that would apply, but the principal remains the same. The Catholic Church is anti-capital punishment with that one exception.
 
You might not have posted that anyone understands God completely. But you do keep suggesting people create a God in their own image. To which I think Tom makes a valid point that if he created God in his image, he would be at home looking at himself in the mirror and not at Sunday service.
And my argument is that the UU Sunday service is, indeed, a metaphorical looking in the mirror at yourselves.

Anything which one’s own reflection proclaims to be truth is, indeed, proclaimed to be truth, as the individual sees it.
 
I don’t think though there necessarily has to be disagreement with something at first in order to not create God in our own images.
Sorry. I am not understanding this. Could you possibly re-phrase without so many negatives?
When a person believes they are in the right church or religion in which they will be led to God’s Truth, whether or not their original beliefs just so happen to match God’s or not, they are in either case not only going to conform but are going to adhere to (fill in the blank religion). In doing so they are not forming God to their image. But following what they believe to be God’s.
I think I understand your point here…and it seems to be agreeing with my premise. You join a church to be “led to God’s Truth.” NOT join a church that teaches everything that you already believe to be True. :yup:
 
And my argument is that the UU Sunday service is, indeed, a metaphorical looking in the mirror at yourselves.

Anything which one’s own reflection proclaims to be truth is, indeed, proclaimed to be truth, as the individual sees it.
This is exactly what it all boils down to and what bothers me so much about a religion that is either incapable of or unwilling to define what they believe. I mean is there truth or is there not? I have more respect for an atheist that has really pondered the question and arrived at a conclusion than one who just accepts anything and everything anyone desires to believe. I suppose even atheists would be welcome in the UU.
 
Sorry. I am not understanding this. Could you possibly re-phrase without so many negatives?

I think I understand your point here…and it seems to be agreeing with my premise. You join a church to be “led to God’s Truth.” NOT join a church that teaches everything that you already believe to be True. :yup:
Some people join a church because they want to do what is morally right and they join a church which teaches and supports them in this. They want a church that teaches to love God and neighbor.
 
According to the Law, the wages of sin are death. We are also told that judgment is for God alone. Why is capital punishment not usurping God’s authority?
Jumping in and out,from the Catechism below. The Church allows for capital punishment if society can not secure imprisonment of the criminal. This is less an issue in the 21st century than it was in previous centuries. This is not taking God’s authority as society has the right and duty to protect its citizens.

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
 
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