Ask a Unitarian Universalist

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LeftyDisciple said:
Unless by chance a person’s own reflection of moral sensibilities already matched the Creator’s moral reflections before they joined a church. That wouldn’t mean to me a person has created God in their image though. God still would have done that. But would have created the person too.
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It seems pretty unlikely, don’t you think, that everything the person happens to believe is moral just happens to be what God decreed to be moral?

One look at the newspaper will tell you that a whole bunch of people find a whole bunch of sinful behavior just fine to do.
 
SteveVH said:
Let me explain as simply as I can why this argument fails. When we speak of objective truth we are speaking of a man who sincerely, with all of his heart, mind and soul, believes he can fly. However, when he jumps off of the 20 story building the objective truth that is gravity will make itself present. This happens regardless of one’s needs or desires or beliefs. The fact is that truth does not originate in the human mind. We discover truth, both through observing the world around us and through direct revelation from God. And we must conform ourselves to that truth, not conform the truth to our needs and desires.
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All that explains to me is the man came to an understanding and discovered he couldn’t fly. I’m not sure all UU’s and those of other faiths in which people seek all believe there is not ultimately a single truth. They may be on a journey seeking it. And then of course even among the Christian community there remain differences as to what that truth ultimately will turn out to be. God will I trust based on their understanding and their hearts sort it all out in the end.
 
LeftyDisciple said:
All that explains to me is the man came to an understanding and discovered he couldn’t fly. I’m not sure all UU’s and those of other faiths in which people seek all believe there is not ultimately a single truth. They may be on a journey seeking it. And then of course even among the Christian community there remain differences as to what that truth ultimately will turn out to be. God will I trust based on their understanding and their hearts sort it all out in the end.
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It appears that what you are talking about is opinions regarding truth, rather than truth itself.

In your view, all opinions regarding truth are as valid as another’s. That is, it is akin to one person saying, “Buttered popcorn is the best!” and another person saying, “No, caramel popcorn is the best!”.

Of course, in the above scenario, there is no right or wrong answer. It simply depends upon the taster’s preference.

What we Catholics are saying is this: it is not correct to say “Popcorn is made out of buttercups!”
 
PRmerger said:
It seems pretty unlikely, don’t you think, that everything the person happens to believe is moral just happens to be what God decreed to be moral?

One look at the newspaper will tell you that a whole bunch of people find a whole bunch of sinful behavior just fine to do.
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Well I might agree it’s pretty unlikely without some study and learning, and prayer, reflection, and looking deep within our consciences where alone we are with God Whose voice echos from within. But once a person chooses a church to join after that as lets say an adult, one in which they believe leads and encourages them in their faith and beliefs, I’m less certain that means it necessitates in every case they have created God in their own image. But I’m more than happy to agree to disagree. I have no problem with that.
 
PRmerger said:
It appears that what you are talking about is opinions regarding truth, rather than truth itself.

In your view, all opinions regarding truth are as valid as another’s. That is, it is akin to one person saying, “Buttered popcorn is the best!” and another person saying, “No, caramel popcorn is the best!”.

Of course, in the above scenario, there is no right or wrong answer. It simply depends upon the taster’s preference.

What we Catholics are saying is this: it is not correct to say “Popcorn is made out of buttercups!”
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Well not exactly. The truth is I do prefer salted only popcorn. Hold the butter. But I’ve already come to the understanding along life’s journey it’s made out of corn. 👍 But on fully understanding as a human all truth as it relates to something as infinite and awesome as God, I’m not quite there yet.
 
LeftyDisciple said:
Well I might agree it’s pretty unlikely without some study and learning, and prayer, reflection, and looking deep within our consciences where alone we are with God Whose voice echos from within. But once a person chooses a church to join after that as lets say an adult, one in which they believe leads and encourages them in their faith and beliefs, I’m less certain that means it necessitates in every case they have created God in their own image. But I’m more than happy to agree to disagree. I have no problem with that.
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So here’s the thing, Lefty. It appears as if you are saying that a church can lead a person to all truth, except for moral truth, in which case a person ought to be able to decide this for himself prior to joining a church.

Is that a correct synopsis of your position?
 
PRmerger said:
Would that they had reformed the Church without rebellion and pride! They would have been saints, as Catherine of Sienna and Ignatius Loyola are revered today.

Your error lies in saying that this indicates that “there is something wrong” with the Church, rather than “there is something wrong” with that man’s behavior.
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Why did the Church authorities put him at the top and make him the Vicar of Christ? Why did the Church allow him to have so many mistresses and prostitutes without reprimand? So according to you, are you saying that there was nothing wrong with the Church allowing this to happen where the Vicar of Christ, Pope Alexander VI, is openly and publicly sinning with prostitutes?
 
Tomdstone said:
Why did the Church authorities put him at the top and make him the Vicar of Christ?
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Well, since Jesus himself put a traitor named Judas at the top, why should you criticize the Church for putting sinners at the top?

Just as it would be an error to leave Jesus because of Judas, we ought not leave the Church because of bad popes.
Why did the Church allow him to have so many mistresses and prostitutes without reprimand?
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How do you know he wasn’t reprimanded?
So according to you, are you saying that there was nothing wrong with the Church allowing this to happen where the Vicar of Christ, Pope Alexander VI, is openly and publicly sinning with prostitutes?
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Perhaps you missed the post where I said the exact opposite of what you are claiming I said?
PRmerger said:
Catholics also think that this did not set a good example
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PRmerger said:
So here’s the thing, Lefty. It appears as if you are saying that a church can lead a person to all truth, except for moral truth, in which case a person ought to be able to decide this for himself prior to joining a church.

Is that a correct synopsis of your position?
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No it’s not quite. A person can also study, learn, pray, seek to discern God’s voice echoing deep within their consciences where they are alone with Him before joining.
 
LeftyDisciple said:
No it’s not quite. A person can also study, learn, pray, seek to discern God’s voice echoing deep within their consciences where they are alone with Him before joining.
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But not be led to a moral truth in the church they join? The church can only lead them to a more prayerful life? :confused:
 
LeftyDisciple said:
I don’t think you meant to imply Judas was Pope.
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No. We consider the 12 Apostles to be founders of the Catholic Church. When I say “at the top” the universe of discourse is: the Magisterium. The 12 Apostles consisted of the Magisterium of the CC.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, since Jesus himself put a traitor named Judas at the top, why should you criticize the Church for putting sinners at the top?

Just as it would be an error to leave Jesus because of Judas, we ought not leave the Church because of bad popes.

How do you know he wasn’t reprimanded?

Perhaps you missed the post where I said the exact opposite of what you are claiming I said?
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If there was a reprimand, what did it accomplish?
 
PRmerger said:
Sorry. I am not understanding this. Could you possibly re-phrase without so many negatives?

I think I understand your point here…and it seems to be agreeing with my premise. You join a church to be “led to God’s Truth.” NOT join a church that teaches everything that you already believe to be True. :yup:
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You’re repeating that a l it. Forgive me if I’ve posted this… it seems to me that you are looking for very concrete examples.”I joined a church on Monday. I learned on Tuesday that they teach that I should accept abortion. On Wednesday, I’m now biting the bullet and I accept abortions”. Is this the concreteness that you’re looking for?

Over the course of my life (I’m 44), I’ve changed my opinions on abortion, and capital punishment (I mention these because they are the hot topics). I have not changed churches every time this has happened. Would you grant the possibility that these changes occurred because I’ve matured, in part due to the influence of my religion? Would you grant the possibility?
 
PRmerger said:
Those of us who are born with any type of disordered desire (and that is, sadly, all of us) must reject it.

There is something better for us than wallowing around in the muck, professing, “Well, this is natural for me to like!”
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Yes, and here we have a fundamental disagreement. I know several homosexuals (to varying degrees of friendship) and will not say to them “you are disorderd”. You may do so, I will not.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, since Jesus himself put a traitor named Judas at the top, why should you criticize the Church for putting sinners at the top?
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I don’t recall Judas being addressed as the Holy Father. But the Pope is so addressed, including Pope Alexander VI. Would you say that Catholics should not expect the Holy Father to be holy? this is what has stumped many Protestants who say that if the Holy Father is not holy, why then should he be addressed as the Holy Father?
 
SteveVH said:
This is exactly the problem. They cannot separate the act from the person. We regard the homosexual as having dignity simply because of the fact that he or she is a human being. The idea that in order to accept a homosexual as having dignity we must also accept their life style is misguided. How should we regard a pedophile? Do we have to accept pedophilia in order to treat that person with the dignity due all human beings? Of course not.

I realize that you are relating another’s position and that this is not your own, but I think that those that do hold to this position need to re-think it.
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The example of pedophilia seems to come up fairly frequently whenever I hear similar comparisons (i.e. the recent Boy Scout thing). Followed by bestiality (Rick Santorum comes to mind). Not sure why exactly.

Pedophilia involves sexual activity with a minor. Since minors are deemed to be not mature enough to make responsible decisions on their own, sexual activity (which is a profund thing) with an adult is verboten. I believe I already made this point earlier. So, no, you don’t have to accept.
 
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