Well, that’s like saying Math professors who proclaim, “We are math professors and correct, and if you say that 3+3 = 7 you are wrong” are saying the same old thing in response to a bunch of folks who want to change the truths of math.
Firstly, would you mind, rob, using the “quote” feature, so that we can be certain which post to which you are responding?
There is nothing in the above post to which I can disagree.I think we agree, regarding scientific truths and also regarding the fact that there are more than just scientific truths. So, I’m going to move on from that point, if that is ok with you. (Don’t want to derail the thread any more than perhaps I already have done!)
Now, regarding “fides et ratio”: First. I assume that this translates to “faith and reason” (Note to Catholics: Don’t assume that non-Catholics are fluent in Latin – it’s best to just translate such phrases into English.) I’ll assume that translation is correct for the rest of this post, but of course if it is incorrect, then you can pretty much disregard this reply.
Regarding faith: I conjecture that this is very much an idea unique to Catholicism and Islam and their various off-shoots and derivatives (Protestantism, Mormonism, etc). I don’t know that faith really has any meaning for most other religions. The concept ‘faith’ makes various assumptions: One is that it is important that you actually believe in a religious truth – a deity may not care whether or not you believe in it or not, or such faith may have no other practical purpose. A deity may not even be conscious so that such caring is even within the scope of its abilities. It also presupposes that ‘faith’ is a reliable means of uncovering truths, and I think it is well-demonstrated that ‘faith’ can be misplaced – surely you agree, as a Catholic. After all, from your perspective, anyone that has faith in Islam, United Methodism, or Mormonism has a misplaced faith. To the questioning non-religious type, ‘faith’ seems a very unreliable concept. It seems arbitrary.
Regarding reason: Yes, I agree that reason (including formal logic) is a legitimate way to uncover non-scientific truths.
It is an offshoot from Christianity, specifically, Congregationalist churches in New England in early American history, which were themselves a branch from some Calvinist churches in Europe. As each congregation had autonomy over its selection of pastor, the more liberal halves of a congregation tended to splinter off and form new (Unitarian) congregations. Some denominations have intentionally kept more of those Christian traditions. Here’s a link to King’s Chapel in Boston, if you’re interested. My son toured this church this past year as part of a youth trip to Boston.
I don’t believe that this is true. take for example, the teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. This was the original teaching as stated in the original creed of the Catholic Church and even today it is the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church. However, according to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches today, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son. And the Eastern Orthodox do not accept this (filioque) teaching which they say is not the same teaching as was originally stated in the Nicene Creed.
The concept of “sinners” and “sin” is not fact, though. It is a faith-based belief. I don’t believe in the religious definition of “sin”. It’s not that I don’t think there are people who do terrible things. Of course there are people who do terrible things, but to call it “sin” is to accept that there has been some violation of a divine law. And that is a faith-based belief.
Briefly, universalism is the idea that God’s love and forgiveness are so profound, that the concept of an eternal hell, or separation from God, is not consistent. Rob Bell, a non-denominational Christian minister, wrote a nice book called “Love Wins” that discussed comparable ideas from a Christian viewpoint. It received some national press a few years ago when it came out.
Very good, yes you could call Servetus an early Unitarian. He had written a lot questioning the trinity. Then he made the bad decision to try and go “underground” in Geneva when Calvin was in his heyday.
I’ve always loved that one!
Whoa, that’s a lot of words. Can’t possibly comment on twenty theories…
Nonsensical. I don’t know anyone who is offended when challenged. Amused maybe, offended no. As to challenging others, why is it uncharitable? Someone makes a statement that appears to be lacking in basis or credibility and another person challenges the statement. Not uncharitable, just discourse.
I don’t think we need to get too mired in semantics. My statement doesn’t change at all if we remove the words “sin” and “sinners” from my response.
It’s not semantics. Words have meaning. Change the word “fact” in the second part of your second statement (above) to “my faith,” and then you have an honest statement.
You seem to be confusing the referents here, ProudUU.
I propose that you are really part of the first group–just in a state of flux right now. You are seeking and are “happy” but that is relative. Once you have found God you will have joy. True joy.
That’s why I referred you to the youtube video. That’s where the dots are connected.
Yes, I am a cradle Catholic. (Actually, it’s more correct to say that I was a cradle pagan, like all of humanity, and I became Catholic at 2 months old when I was baptized.)
Yes, it is a fact that there are weak people within any religion or among those who choose no religion. And there are strong-willed people within all those groups as well. It is NOT a fact that there is one so-called “true church.” THAT part is where the use of the word “fact” is incorrect.
I am glad that we can agree on one fact that I have presented.
Ahhh beautiful! I remember telling my mother at age 8 that I’d learned everything I needed and school was no longer necessary. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. If someone had asked me in my atheist days or my days as a UU if I were satisfied I’d found the Truth, I would have said absolutely…while disputing that there IS any essential truth.
