Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[Jcc1960]

This is very Catholic!

However, you are, of course, aware that while Catholic ought not conclude that they know what is in the hearts of men, they are indeed supposed to judge.

In fact, the Word of God commands us to judge, right?

We must judge right from wrong, based on the Word of God, as well as ethics which may be derived from that and certainly our own conscience.

Judging the fate of another’s soul is best left up to God, wouldn’t you agree with that?

 

[PRmerger]

We must judge right from wrong, based on the Word of God, as well as ethics which may be derived from that and certainly our own conscience.

Indeed

Judging the fate of another’s soul is best left up to God, wouldn’t you agree with that?

Absolutely.

And any Catholic who claims to be able to know the demographics of hell is declaring things above his pay grade.

And you can tell him that.

 

[PRmerger]

We must judge right from wrong, based on the Word of God, as well as ethics which may be derived from that and certainly our own conscience.

Judging the fate of another’s soul is best left up to God, wouldn’t you agree with that?

Is there a reason you have brought the subject up of judging the fate of another’s soul or reading the hearts of men? Has a Catholic on this thread made any overt or covert implication that she has been able to discern whether a person is going to hell?

 

[Tomdstone]

As I said, I’m not talking about heroic deeds.

I am talking about saintly deeds, in the manner of Maximilian Kolbe,

Why is it not saintly when Liviu Librescu gave up his life and barricaded the door so that students of his could escape through a window at the time of the massacre?

 

[Jcc1960]

Is there a reason you have brought the subject up of judging the fate of another’s soul or reading the hearts of men? Has a Catholic on this thread made any overt or covert implication that she has been able to discern whether a person is going to hell?

When I jumped in to the disussion, the subject appeared to be atheists. I think not judging others applies to them too. And the fate of ones soul, could be heaven or hell, according to Scripture, right? Who are we to say there is not a place in heaven for atheists?

Ok, now I am sounding like a Unitarian!

 

[PRmerger]

Why is it not saintly when Liviu Librescu gave up his life and barricaded the door so that students of his could escape through a window at the time of the massacre?

You make a good point. I think that I will need to amend my proposition and say that one needs to be a Judeo-Christian in order to have the virtues required to be a saint here on earth.

 

[PRmerger]

Did the Roman Catholic Church widen its borders on who can receive Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church? Before Vatican II, only Catholics were eligible. Is it better now, or was it better before?

Perhaps if you could offer the Magisterial documents pre-VII that you are referencing, and the teachings post-VII that you are addressing we can discuss.

Could you please address the above, Tomdstone?

 

[PRmerger]

When I jumped in to the disussion, the subject appeared to be atheists. I think not judging others applies to them too. And the fate of ones soul, could be heaven or hell, according to Scripture, right? Who are we to say there is not a place in heaven for atheists?

Ok, now I am sounding like a Unitarian!

There are no atheists in heaven, Jcc. Reason and logic tells you this.

Now, this is quite different from saying that an atheist can not have the possibility of being in heaven. If he/she is in heaven, it is because he/she is now Catholic.

And it is quite different from saying that all atheists are in hell.

 

[Tomdstone]

Perhaps if you could offer the Magisterial documents pre-VII that you are referencing, and the teachings post-VII that you are addressing we can discuss.

The present teaching is that in the case of Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, who have valid Eucharists, the Code provides that they may receive reconciliation, Communion, or the anointing of the sick “if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed” (CIC 844 §3).
Also: Vatican II document, Orientalium Ecclesiarum # 27:
“Given the above-mentioned principles, the sacraments of Penance, Holy Eucharist, and
the anointing of the sick may be conferred on eastern Christians who in good faith are
separated from the Catholic Church, if they make the request of their own accord and are
properly disposed.”
Ut Unum Sint (# 46), May 25, 1995: “… Catholic ministers are able, in
certain particular cases, to administer the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and
Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic
Church…”
The previous teaching was:
Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum divinitus (# 11), May 17, 1835:
“… whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer
shares in the divine mystery…‘Whoever eats the Lamb outside of this house is
unholy.’”
Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862:
“… whoever eats of the Lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned.”

 

[PRmerger]

The present teaching is that in the case of Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, who have valid Eucharists, the Code provides that they may receive reconciliation, Communion, or the anointing of the sick “if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed” (CIC 844 §3).
Also: Vatican II document, Orientalium Ecclesiarum # 27:
“Given the above-mentioned principles, the sacraments of Penance, Holy Eucharist, and
the anointing of the sick may be conferred on eastern Christians who in good faith are
separated from the Catholic Church, if they make the request of their own accord and are
properly disposed.”
Ut Unum Sint (# 46), May 25, 1995: “… Catholic ministers are able, in
certain particular cases, to administer the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and
Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic
Church…”
The previous teaching was:
Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum divinitus (# 11), May 17, 1835:
“… whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer
shares in the divine mystery…‘Whoever eats the Lamb outside of this house is
unholy.’”
Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862:
“… whoever eats of the Lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned.”

Ah, so you are talking about canon law here.

That’s what I thought you were going to reference, but I wanted to be sure.

Canon law is a discipline of the church, and as such, disciplines can change as the culture changes.

This ought not be confused with saying that doctrines have changed.

There are numerous threads here that discuss the difference between disciplines, doctrines, dogmas, and how canon law applies to that. I would examine those if you have any further questions.

Suffice it to say that while disciplines can change (such as how long to fast before receiving Him in the Blessed Sacrament), doctrines and dogmas do not.

 

[Tomdstone]

Ah, so you are talking about canon law here.

That’s what I thought you were going to reference, but I wanted to be sure.

Canon law is a discipline of the church, and as such, disciplines can change as the culture changes.

This ought not be confused with saying that doctrines have changed.

There are numerous threads here that discuss the difference between disciplines, doctrines, dogmas, and how canon law applies to that. I would examine those if you have any further questions.

Suffice it to say that while disciplines can change (such as how long to fast before receiving Him in the Blessed Sacrament), doctrines and dogmas do not.

The original question was whether or not the RCC had widened its borders.

 

[PRmerger]

The original question was whether or not the RCC had widened its borders.

Well, anyone who tells you that the Church has not evolved is incorrect.

 

[Jcc1960]

There are no atheists in heaven, Jcc. Reason and logic tells you this.

Now, this is quite different from saying that an atheist can not have the possibility of being in heaven. If he/she is in heaven, it is because he/she is now Catholic.

And it is quite different from saying that all atheists are in hell.

Point well taken, except for the " Catholic" bit. Cheers!

 

[Tomdstone]

Well, anyone who tells you that the Church has not evolved is incorrect.

Previously you seemed to be against widening the borders of the Church?

So now my question is: why is having wider borders better?

For example: is it better for an engineer to be more liberal with his measurements? Would you trust a foundation built by a contractor who took more liberties with his guideposts? What about a pharmacist? Or a surgeon? Or an airline pilot?

However, since VII, the Church has been more liberal with giving non-Catholics Holy Communion.

 

[nmgauss]

Well, what I have seen from most UU folks is that when it is the CC it is “intolerance”, but when it is the UU church it is, well, a “guidepost”.

So now my question is: why is having wider borders better?

For example: is it better for an engineer to be more liberal with his measurements? Would you trust a foundation built by a contractor who took more liberties with his guideposts? What about a pharmacist? Or a surgeon? Or an airline pilot?

In technology, narrow standard tolerances (allowable deviations from perfection) are established to avoid catastrophic failure. The consequences of exceeding standard tolerances causing catastrophic failure can be the loss of life and criminal charges.

Can the same be said for exceeding guideposts in a religious organization?

 

[PRmerger]

Previously you seemed to be against widening the borders of the Church?

It depends upon what the borders are. Widening must be tolerated in some venues. Narrowing is required in others.

However, since VII, the Church has been more liberal with giving non-Catholics Holy Communion.

Nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

 

[PRmerger]

In technology, narrow standard tolerances (allowable deviations from perfection) are established to avoid catastrophic failure. The consequences of exceeding standard tolerances causing catastrophic failure can be the loss of life and criminal charges.

Can the same be said for exceeding guideposts in a religious organization?

I would think so!

I think the existence of tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each of them deviating from the faith that was given once for all, has resulted in catastrophic failures: the possible loss of eternal life.

We see the results of this failed Protestant experiment of deviation from the norm: chaos and confusion in Christendom.

 

[JustaServant]

Sylvester measured his pulse and found that his heart beat at a rate of 80 beats a minute at rest. At this rate, how many days will it take his heart to beat 1,000,000 times?

 

[PRmerger]

Sylvester measured his pulse and found that his heart beat at a rate of 80 beats a minute at rest. At this rate, how many days will it take his heart to beat 1,000,000 times?

 

[JustaServant]

Math problem PR.

Just trying a little humor to start the morning.