Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[LisaA]

I’m not so much arguing as I am simply pointing out that there were many religious leaders standing with MLK. The original quote was, “Yes. And Catholics were at the forefront.” All I was pointing out was that one could substitute “Catholics” with just about any other religion in that statement and it would still be true. We may not agree on much, but we can agree that our religious traditions stood together at that time in history.

Agreed people of faith stood together for civil rights of minorities then. Too bad we no longer stand together on the civil rights of the unborn. This is what has happened as mainline religions became less invested in Biblical teaching and more invested in popular culture and political correctness. I’ve always thought it the height of irony that the very groups that are opposed to war, the death penalty, and nuclear proliferation do not mind waging war in the womb.

There was a time that religious faiths stood together to help the powerless and marginalized and oppressed. Now we have two camps, those who believe in supporting the rights of all human beings no matter how small and another group that supports a woman’s right of life or death over her baby.

Lisa

 

[mek42]

Do UU services ever resemble high church or are they always informal?

 

[ProudUU]

I think it’s the height of irony that folks who like to tout themselves as “pro-life” also seem to usually (though not always) be:

A) opposed to contraception, which leads to fewer abortions;
B) opposed to social programs that help women and children in need;
C) in favor of the death penalty;
D) pro-war;
E) pro-guns …

… and so on, and so on.

I am vehemently pro-choice, yes. I have worn a bullet proof vest and escorted women past nasty, vile protestors shouting horrible things outside of clinics. I have held their hands and cried with them while they made what is a very tough decision to make. And I know how they feel, as I have been in their shoes, having made that choice myself nearly 20 years ago … a choice that allowed me to have the two beautiful, wanted children that I have today. Children who would not exist had I not made that choice. I make NO apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives, and I am an adamant supporter of contraception and comprehensive sex education - both of which lead to fewer abortions, which should be everyone’s ultimate goal. I am also an adamant believer in doing whatever we can to help the women who DO choose to go through pregnancy - be that via SNAP, TANF, WIC, working for more generous maternity leaves, working for single-payer healthcare to ensure that every woman as access to the care she needs if she finds herself in an unwanted pregnancy, etc. If you deny women access to contraception, you wind up with more abortions. If you deny them access to early, safe abortions and also access to social safety nets, you wind up with dead women and the cycle of poverty continuing.

So, there’s that.

Oh, and I’ll make a couple preemptive statements, since I’ve been in this conversation before … Kermit Gosnell is a monster, and restricting access to abortions leads to monsters like him coming out of the woodwork to make a buck off of desperate women … Yes, I’m aware that not only poor women get abortions … Eh, those are the two I can think of right now, anyway.

 

[ProudUU]

Do UU services ever resemble high church or are they always informal?

Mek42, thank you for a question that is actually germane to the thread.

That said, it’s one I can’t really answer, haha. I was not brought up in any religion; when I attended my first UU service at the age of 32, I had only been to one church service in my life that wasn’t part of a wedding or a funeral. I have no basis of comparison as to what “high church” entails. Each UU congregation has a different order of service, but I would say most, if not all, include lighting the chalice, singing hymns, a sermon of sorts, an offering, etc. Most have pretty amazing choirs that will sing 1-2 songs during the service sometimes. We do have a ritual that we follow, but nothing is set in stone for any congregation.

 

[LisaA]

I think it’s the height of irony that folks who like to tout themselves as “pro-life” also seem to usually (though not always) be:

A) opposed to contraception, which leads to fewer abortions;
B) opposed to social programs that help women and children in need;
C) in favor of the death penalty;
D) pro-war;
E) pro-guns …

… and so on, and so on.

I am vehemently pro-choice, yes. I have worn a bullet proof vest and escorted women past nasty, vile protestors shouting horrible things outside of clinics. I have held their hands and cried with them while they made what is a very tough decision to make. And I know how they feel, as I have been in their shoes, having made that choice myself nearly 20 years ago … a choice that allowed me to have the two beautiful, wanted children that I have today. Children who would not exist had I not made that choice. I make NO apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives, and I am an adamant supporter of contraception and comprehensive sex education - both of which lead to fewer abortions, which should be everyone’s ultimate goal. I am also an adamant believer in doing whatever we can to help the women who DO choose to go through pregnancy - be that via SNAP, TANF, WIC, working for more generous maternity leaves, working for single-payer healthcare to ensure that every woman as access to the care she needs if she finds herself in an unwanted pregnancy, etc. If you deny women access to contraception, you wind up with more abortions. If you deny them access to early, safe abortions and also access to social safety nets, you wind up with dead women and the cycle of poverty continuing.

So, there’s that.

Oh, and I’ll make a couple preemptive statements, since I’ve been in this conversation before … Kermit Gosnell is a monster, and restricting access to abortions leads to monsters like him coming out of the woodwork to make a buck off of desperate women … Yes, I’m aware that not only poor women get abortions … Eh, those are the two I can think of right now, anyway.

Reading your post makes me physically ill. It is so full of the erroneous and specious arguments used to murder millions of babies in the womb. As you wearing a bullet proof vest. I don’t believe you

Lisa

 

[ProudUU]

Reading your post makes me physically ill. It is so full of the erroneous and specious arguments used to murder millions of babies in the womb. As you wearing a bullet proof vest. I don’t believe you

Lisa

You can choose not to believe me all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. No skin off my nose.

And no, they’re not erroneous and specious arguments. I said, quite simply, that I make no apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives. I favor working towards a society in which women don’t feel like it’s a decision they have to make in order to live, which means a strong social safety net and access to contraception. And, having been in those shoes, I have a perspective that so many who argue against legal abortion don’t have. You may choose to ignore the realities of pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing on a woman who cannot afford it, who cannot handle it emotionally, etc. I don’t. I made the choice to have an abortion once and I also made the choice to have two children later in my life; again, children who wouldn’t exist today had I not made that choice. It’s not a fun choice, it’s not an easy choice, no woman puts it on her “to-do” list next to a pedicure and picking up milk at the store. But sometimes, it’s a necessary choice.

But I get where you’re coming from. “Pro-life” arguments tend to make me physically ill.

 

[LisaA]

You can choose not to believe me all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. No skin off my nose.

And no, they’re not erroneous and specious arguments. I said, quite simply, that I make no apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives. I favor working towards a society in which women don’t feel like it’s a decision they have to make in order to live, which means a strong social safety net and access to contraception. And, having been in those shoes, I have a perspective that so many who argue against legal abortion don’t have. You may choose to ignore the realities of pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing on a woman who cannot afford it, who cannot handle it emotionally, etc. I don’t. I made the choice to have an abortion once and I also made the choice to have two children later in my life; again, children who wouldn’t exist today had I not made that choice. It’s not a fun choice, it’s not an easy choice, no woman puts it on her “to-do” list next to a pedicure and picking up milk at the store. But sometimes, it’s a necessary choice.

But I get where you’re coming from. “Pro-life” arguments tend to make me physically ill.

The Catholic Consistent life ethic is that life is to be protected from conception until natural death.

Do tell me how that makes you physically ill?

As to your other comments, they are the typical Leftist bumper sticker drivel. Contraception IS widely available, for FREE if someone cannot afford to make what are now minimal payments for birth control pills. Contraception is pushed, promoted, given out in schools, clinics and Planned Parenthood offices. The number of women who are desperately seeking contraception but are unable to do so is minimal. This is such a canard it amazes me that anyone still uses this baloney with a straight face.

With respect to women aborting because they “cant afford” a child or are not “emotionally ready” for it, once again you pull out the Leftist bumper stickers that have no basis in reality. Any woman wishing to continue her pregnancy but unable to raise a child will have no difficulty in having the child adopted. She can even designate which parents get her child in these days of open adoption. If she wants to raise her child, there is simply no lack of programs, funding or support. You act as if this is Bangalore and people are leaving babies in cardboard boxes to be picked up or starve to death. The social safety net for women and children is a behemoth. And if you try to claim I know not of what i speak I hope to disabuse you of this erroneous assumption. As a long time volunteer in child oriented charities, I have seen the multitude of private as well as public programs to help any mother and child who needs it.

Further if a woman is not “emotionally ready” to be a mother, why is she emotionally ready for sexual activity?

Abortion is rarely ever necessary. It is almost always a selfish choice of a woman who has already made one poor decision (to have unprotected sex with a selfish and irresponsible man who is probably not her husband) Now she decides to make another truly unfortunate decision as if it erases the reality of the unborn child.

There are very very very few “necessary” abortions, those made truly to save the mother’s life. As a Catholic I accept the teaching that there is no reason for abortion but I could more easily understand a woman facing a breast cancer diagnosis who needs immediate treatment than a would be member of “Friends” who think getting a belly and swollen ankles will be a real buzzkill for her career or relationship.

BTW lest you think I’m some rosary waving zealot who stands outside abortion clinics screaming obscenities, be aware that I used to be just like you, thinking I would have been perfectly justified in killing one baby to “save” another one for the future (as you have indicated) I remember a time I would have aborted any pregnancy because I was both an atheist and totally ignorant of fetal development. We are told by the media that it’s a ‘blob’ or a ‘problem’ and most women wanting to be rid of same sign right up. Why not? They have no religious prohibition, they don’t want to be inconvenienced or to upset their sex partner who doesn’t want a kid. Trust me I know there are many reasons for abortion, just no valid ones

Lisa

 

[mek42]

I’ve seen UU offering specific services for a subset of the congregation. Wiccans solstice celebrations come to mind. Are these open to people not of that subset, perhaps even non-UU visitors?

 

[ProudUU]

The Catholic Consistent life ethic is that life is to be protected from conception until natural death.

Do tell me how that makes you physically ill?

That’s not the argument that makes me ill. It’s the “shaming” arguments that always go along with it. It’s treating women like children, like idiots who don’t know what they’re doing.

As to your other comments, they are the typical Leftist bumper sticker drivel. Contraception IS widely available, for FREE if someone cannot afford to make what are now minimal payments for birth control pills. Contraception is pushed, promoted, given out in schools, clinics and Planned Parenthood offices. The number of women who are desperately seeking contraception but are unable to do so is minimal. This is such a canard it amazes me that anyone still uses this baloney with a straight face.

More readily available now, yes. Available to everyone who needs it? No. And birth control does fail sometimes. Comprehensive sex education needs to go along with it.

With respect to women aborting because they “cant afford” a child or are not “emotionally ready” for it, once again you pull out the Leftist bumper stickers that have no basis in reality. Any woman wishing to continue her pregnancy but unable to raise a child will have no difficulty in having the child adopted. She can even designate which parents get her child in these days of open adoption. If she wants to raise her child, there is simply no lack of programs, funding or support. You act as if this is Bangalore and people are leaving babies in cardboard boxes to be picked up or starve to death. The social safety net for women and children is a behemoth. And if you try to claim I know not of what i speak I hope to disabuse you of this erroneous assumption. As a long time volunteer in child oriented charities, I have seen the multitude of private as well as public programs to help any mother and child who needs it.

So, what about the woman who can’t afford the pregnancy itself? Who can’t afford even a week off of work to give birth, let alone the possibility of extended bed rest? And so on, and so on. What about the woman (or child) who was raped and should not be forced to relive that day for the next nine months, not to mention the above conditions of not being able to afford it or, in the case of a child who was raped, should not be forced to put her body through the trauma of it? And further, if what you said was true, we would not have children wasting away in the foster system … but yes, it’s true that a healthy, white baby would have no trouble being adopted.

Further if a woman is not “emotionally ready” to be a mother, why is she emotionally ready for sexual activity?

A) That’s none of your business or mine; and B) My sister is a happily married, 31-year-old woman who wants nothing whatsoever to do with motherhood. Some women never want to be mothers. Ever. And that’s fine.

Abortion is rarely ever necessary. It is almost always a selfish choice of a woman who has already made one poor decision (to have unprotected sex with a selfish and irresponsible man who is probably not her husband) Now she decides to make another truly unfortunate decision as if it erases the reality of the unborn child.

There are very very very few “necessary” abortions, those made truly to save the mother’s life. As a Catholic I accept the teaching that there is no reason for abortion but I could more easily understand a woman facing a breast cancer diagnosis who needs immediate treatment than a would be member of “Friends” who think getting a belly and swollen ankles will be a real buzzkill for her career or relationship.

BTW lest you think I’m some rosary waving zealot who stands outside abortion clinics screaming obscenities, be aware that I used to be just like you, thinking I would have been perfectly justified in killing one baby to “save” another one for the future (as you have indicated) I remember a time I would have aborted any pregnancy because I was both an atheist and totally ignorant of fetal development. We are told by the media that it’s a ‘blob’ or a ‘problem’ and most women wanting to be rid of same sign right up. Why not? They have no religious prohibition, they don’t want to be inconvenienced or to upset their sex partner who doesn’t want a kid. Trust me I know there are many reasons for abortion, just no valid ones

Lisa

They may not be valid to you, and that’s fine. Then don’t have an abortion. But the decisions of another woman are not mine to make, nor are they yours. We are not in their lives, we don’t know the reality of their situations, etc. I am not now, nor was I as a teenager, ignorant of fetal development. I’m sorry you were. And neither are many women who walk into those clinics knowing exactly what they are going to do. Don’t treat women like they’re stupid and ignorant simply because they come to different decisions than you do.

 

[ProudUU]

I’ve seen UU offering specific services for a subset of the congregation. Wiccans solstice celebrations come to mind. Are these open to people not of that subset, perhaps even non-UU visitors?

I can’t speak for all congregations, of course, but all of our services and special services (and even committee meetings and such) are open to everyone, yes, and it would be consistent with UU philosophy to allow visitors and whatnot to all services and special services. A congregation may have its own rules for that sort of thing, but I would be surprised if all - members and visitors alike - weren’t welcome at all these types of things at just about any UU church.

 

[mek42]

LisaA, my dad’s an alcoholic. When I was twelve I responded, a divorce, when my mother asked what I wanted for Christmas. I was the oldest, when I went away to college I had a chat with a sheriff’s deputy who was my LE Explorer advisor. The response I received is that the system is not able to address verbal abuse.

To me, being pro life today means sentencing a certain number of innocent children to a lifetime of abuse, many time far, far worse than anything I can imagine. Until this situation is remedied I have to vote pro choice in order to protect the quality of life of children not yet abused.

You can either call me full of drivel or you can do something to reduce the incidence of child abuse, your call. Personally, I think that adopting special needs children that have been abused is the greatest pro life act possible. A friend of mine has done this. He is an advisor to a campus bible study group, but otherwise in no way proselytizes. He and his family top my list of people who truly walk the walk.

Apologies if this post is a distraction from the purpose of the thread.

 

[Major_Tom]

Do UU services ever resemble high church or are they always informal?

Building on what ProudUU commented…although there is a lot of individuality present in most services, there is, generally speaking, a lack of… what’s the best word? Drama? in most of our services. Not much stained glass, incense, huge cathedrals, Latin, long processions, carrying in the sacred scripture held high, etc. that marks some other denominations’ services. My wife has commented (and I agree), …I miss incense!

 

[Major_Tom]

I’ve seen UU offering specific services for a subset of the congregation. Wiccans solstice celebrations come to mind. Are these open to people not of that subset, perhaps even non-UU visitors?

Haven’t seen something that specific in our congregation. But the solstice is definitely acknowledged. I just finished teaching a year of religious education at our church, and during the December month we presented the basics on solstice celebrations, and how there is great commonality in so many traditions during the Decemeber/June solstices.

 

[Major_Tom]

The Catholic Consistent life ethic is that life is to be protected from conception until natural death.

Earlier in the thread, the subject of capital punishment came up. I do not perceive a consistency of fervor on the part of many pro-lifers when it comes to opposing capital punishment. Some posters duly recited Catholic teaching, even posting this from the cathechism:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

I submit that some states (like Texas) enact the death penalty more as retribution, and in the hopes of prevention of further crime, rather than the criteria stated above (which suggests that the unjust aggressor is extraordinary, a la Hannibal Lecter, and can’t be restrained). If you agree with my assumption, a Catholic should oppose capital punishment, right?

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined…

Earlier I posted a link (Washington Post, now timed out) to an article titled “U.S. reviewing 27 death penalty convictions for FBI forensic testimony errors”, one example of botched investigations that led to death sentences.

I’ve driven by Catholic churches and seen, dozens of times, ‘Pray to End Abortions’ signs. I’ve never seen ‘Pray to end the Death Penalty’ signs. This is anecdotal, I know.

I understand your passion on the subject; mostly, I agree with it. If you’re curious how other folks can be so seemingly inconsistent on a matter of life, know that there are others, like me, who are just as puzzled regarding the lack of consistency on capital punishment.

 

[LisaA]

Earlier in the thread, the subject of capital punishment came up. I do not perceive a consistency of fervor on the part of many pro-lifers when it comes to opposing capital punishment. Some posters duly recited Catholic teaching, even posting this from the cathechism:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

I submit that some states (like Texas) enact the death penalty more as retribution, and in the hopes of prevention of further crime, rather than the criteria stated above (which suggests that the unjust aggressor is extraordinary, a la Hannibal Lecter, and can’t be restrained). If you agree with my assumption, a Catholic should oppose capital punishment, right?

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined…

Earlier I posted a link (Washington Post, now timed out) to an article titled “U.S. reviewing 27 death penalty convictions for FBI forensic testimony errors”, one example of botched investigations that led to death sentences.

I’ve driven by Catholic churches and seen, dozens of times, ‘Pray to End Abortions’ signs. I’ve never seen ‘Pray to end the Death Penalty’ signs. This is anecdotal, I know.

I understand your passion on the subject; mostly, I agree with it. If you’re curious how other folks can be so seemingly inconsistent on a matter of life, know that there are others, like me, who are just as puzzled regarding the lack of consistency on capital punishment.

What I believe is the unique quality of the Catholic approach is the CONSISTENT Life Ethic. Mainline Protestant religions are often vehemently anti-death penalty but want absolutely no restrictions on abortion That’s what I don’t understand, save the guilty and kill the innocent. On the other side, I understand that there are more conservative or fundamentalist Christians who are opposed to abortion but believe in the death penalty.

I accept neither of these totally illogical approaches although at one point I was pro abortion but also for the death penalty in certain cases. I am now totally opposed to abortion and accept the Catholic interpretation with regard to the death penalty.

Why you don’t see signs saying “Pray for an end to the death penalty?” Probably because it’s a non-issue in most parts of the country. Even in those states that allow it, it’s rarely carried out. In my state the death penalty is on the books but not only hasn’t been carried out in decades but our current and past governors have both stated they will commute ALL death penalty cases. They are of course PRO ABORTION…makes me nuts because they seem unable to understand their position is internally and externally illogical and inconsistent as well as un Constitutional…but oh well.

The magnitude of death penalties carried out is less than minimal in comparison to the 300,000+ abortions every year. In less than five years we see over a million babies killed. How many death penalties in the same time…ten? Not even an issue in comparison.

Lisa

 

[SteveVH]

I think it’s the height of irony that folks who like to tout themselves as “pro-life” also seem to usually (though not always) be:

A) opposed to contraception, which leads to fewer abortions;

Wrong. Abortions have increased dramatically since contraception was introduced. What was a rarity has now become common place.

B) opposed to social programs that help women and children in need;

The Catholic Church, the greatest force against abortion, is also the greatest charitable organization of the face of the earth and help countless women and children as well as men in need. Ever hear of Catholic Charities?

C) in favor of the death penalty;

The Church officially opposes the death penalty except in very extreme cases where society cannot be protected by incarceration in a prison.

D) pro-war;

Which war? There is such a thing as just war, as when we are defending our country from an aggressor.

E) pro-guns …

Are you attempting to equate gun ownership with one’s proclivity to commit murder? Really?

I am vehemently pro-choice, yes. I have worn a bullet proof vest and escorted women past nasty, vile protestors shouting horrible things outside of clinics.

I am one of those who stands in front of abortion mills and I have never made a vile comment in my life. We stand there and pray and tell the poor girls going into this nightmare that we have an alternative; that killing the human life inside of her is not the answer.

And I know how they feel, as I have been in their shoes, having made that choice myself nearly 20 years ago … a choice that allowed me to have the two beautiful, wanted children that I have today. Children who would not exist had I not made that choice.

Just how do you come to the conclusion that aborting your first child allowed you to have two children that otherwise would not have been born except for your abortion?

I make NO apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives

Well, it is a life, not a potential life, otherwise you would not have to kill it. Let me ask you something. How would you feel about me crawling up into a tree and tossing eggs out of an Eagle’s nest. After all, they are just fertilized eggs, right?

 

[Major_Tom]

What I believe is the unique quality of the Catholic approach is the CONSISTENT Life Ethic. Mainline Protestant religions are often vehemently anti-death penalty but want absolutely no restrictions on abortion That’s what I don’t understand, save the guilty and kill the innocent. On the other side, I understand that there are more conservative or fundamentalist Christians who are opposed to abortion but believe in the death penalty.

I accept neither of these totally illogical approaches although at one point I was pro abortion but also for the death penalty in certain cases. I am now totally opposed to abortion and accept the Catholic interpretation with regard to the death penalty.

Why you don’t see signs saying “Pray for an end to the death penalty?” Probably because it’s a non-issue in most parts of the country. Even in those states that allow it, it’s rarely carried out. In my state the death penalty is on the books but not only hasn’t been carried out in decades but our current and past governors have both stated they will commute ALL death penalty cases. They are of course PRO ABORTION…makes me nuts because they seem unable to understand their position is internally and externally illogical and inconsistent as well as un Constitutional…but oh well.

The magnitude of death penalties carried out is less than minimal in comparison to the 300,000+ abortions every year. In less than five years we see over a million babies killed. How many death penalties in the same time…ten? Not even an issue in comparison.

Lisa

Since 1976, 1,226 deaths in the U.S.

A nice graphic on capital punishment deaths world wide:
theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world

 

[LisaA]

That’s not the argument that makes me ill. It’s the “shaming” arguments that always go along with it. It’s treating women like children, like idiots who don’t know what they’re doing.

More readily available now, yes. Available to everyone who needs it? No. And birth control does fail sometimes. Comprehensive sex education needs to go along with it.

So, what about the woman who can’t afford the pregnancy itself? Who can’t afford even a week off of work to give birth, let alone the possibility of extended bed rest? And so on, and so on. What about the woman (or child) who was raped and should not be forced to relive that day for the next nine months, not to mention the above conditions of not being able to afford it or, in the case of a child who was raped, should not be forced to put her body through the trauma of it? And further, if what you said was true, we would not have children wasting away in the foster system … but yes, it’s true that a healthy, white baby would have no trouble being adopted.

A) That’s none of your business or mine; and B) My sister is a happily married, 31-year-old woman who wants nothing whatsoever to do with motherhood. Some women never want to be mothers. Ever. And that’s fine.

They may not be valid to you, and that’s fine. Then don’t have an abortion. But the decisions of another woman are not mine to make, nor are they yours. We are not in their lives, we don’t know the reality of their situations, etc. I am not now, nor was I as a teenager, ignorant of fetal development. I’m sorry you were. And neither are many women who walk into those clinics knowing exactly what they are going to do. Don’t treat women like they’re stupid and ignorant simply because they come to different decisions than you do.

Once again, you pull out the usual suspects which are the few outrageous exceptions (rape and incest) to try to justify the reality that the vast majority of abortions in this country are simply birth control “necessary” because of poor decisions made along the way.

As to your claims of women who ‘cant afford’ to be pregnant, that too ignores the reality of adoptive parents ready, willing and able to pay all costs of the pregnancy. It ignores the reality that there are many social services, charitable organizations and community clinics that will cover these costs.

Again there are reasons for abortion, just not any really valid ones. They are invariably based on selfish interests and self justification for poor decisions. Indeed birth control isn’t 100% effective but in reality it’s pretty darned close when used properly.

You should actually do some research into the reasons for abortions. The vast majority of abortions are done of convenience, it’s not the right time, the male partner doesn’t want a child, the pregnant woman doesn’t want the physical issues associated with pregnancy. I believe the Guttmacher Instituted provided a profile of the average abortion client who is not a desperate teen or a single mother or a rape victim, but rather a single woman, mid twenties, with a white collar job and a relationship. She may want kids in the future but hey it’s the wrong time. So “sacrifice” this child for her future opportunities. This is reality and it’s unfortunate that abortion has become so routine that it’s not done with great consideration of all possible options but often as “quick fix” to a “problem.”

The real question is whether the unborn child is a human or not. The child IS alive, at least until the mother determines she no longer wants him or her. He or she has human DNA. What else is the child but a child?

The problem with your side is that you don’t have science on your side. Thus the appeal is to some sort of “rights” question where the real answer is women have abortions, because they are the only ones with the power. Might makes right in these cases.

Getting back to the thread, this is why I find religions such as UU (and Episcopal and Methodist and others) so lacking in credibility. There is simply too much relativism and no real moral foundation. Something is fine if I feel good about it, it’s not about facts, it’s not about building logical conclusions from evidence but just plain emoting.

Lisa

 

[SteveVH]

Since 1976, 1,226 deaths in the U.S.

A nice graphic on capital punishment deaths world wide:
theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world

And three times that many abortions (3,500), each and every day, here in the land of the free and home of the brave where life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are the foundation of our society.

 

[LisaA]

Wrong. Abortions have increased dramatically since contraception was introduced. What was a rarity has now become common place.

The Catholic Church, the greatest force against abortion, is also the greatest charitable organization of the face of the earth and help countless women and children as well as men in need. Ever hear of Catholic Charities?

The Church officially opposes the death penalty except in very extreme cases where society cannot be protected by incarceration in a prison.

Which war? There is such a thing as just war, as when we are defending our country from an aggressor.

Are you attempting to equate gun ownership with one’s proclivity to commit murder? Really?

I am one of those who stands in front of abortion mills and I have never made a vile comment in my life. We stand there and pray and tell the poor girls going into this nightmare that we have an alternative; that killing the human life inside of her is not the answer.

Just how do you come to the conclusion that aborting your first child allowed you to have two children that otherwise would not have been born except for your abortion?

Well, it is a life, not a potential life, otherwise you would not have to kill it. Let me ask you something. How would you feel about me crawling up into a tree and tossing eggs out of an Eagle’s nest. After all, they are just fertilized eggs, right?

well said.

I have a poster that shows baby fish, baby turtles and baby birds…the caption is that “These babies are protected by the government” The fourth picture is an unborn baby and the caption is “This baby is not protected…”

It’s the height of irony that those most vehement about protecting wildlife, even such cold blooded creatures as fish and lizards, are just as loud in promoting the unjust slaughter of babies. Go figure