Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[PRmerger]

This is when Christians begin to ask questions. And this is what happened in Europe when millions of Christians decided to reform Christianity and embarked on the Protestant Reformation.

Because the pope was not holy you start your own church?

Where in the world does that paradigm come from, except from the Great Deceiver?

No Bible verse ever stated that!

In fact, the Bible affirms that one is to obey our leaders, even if they be sinners.

What the Protestant Reformers did was to follow the whispers of the Great Liar, rather than to submit to the authority of the Word of God, which clearly states that sinful men still need to be obeyed.

 

[Tomdstone]

Because the pope was not holy you start your own church?

Where in the world does that paradigm come from, except from the Great Deceiver?

No Bible verse ever stated that!

In fact, the Bible affirms that one is to obey our leaders, even if they be sinners.

What the Protestant Reformers did was to follow the whispers of the Great Liar, rather than to submit to the authority of the Word of God, which clearly states that sinful men still need to be obeyed.

This is not what a Protestant would say. He would say that the Church needed to be reformed.

 

[PRmerger]

This is not what a Protestant would say. He would say that the Church needed to be reformed.

No argument that the church needed reform. There are a multitude of saints who are revered for their efforts to reform. Would that the Prot Reformers had done what the catholic saints had done.

 

[LeftyDisciple]

This is not what a Protestant would say. He would say that the Church needed to be reformed.

That has always been my understanding of how Protestants look at the Reformation as well. Not so much a new church per se but reformed so the gates do not prevail they might even say. Something about that is in the Bible. Although I know there is some difference in how Protestants and Catholics look at the Church. Protestants consider the Church to be the entire Body of believers and Catholics consider it to be the Catholic Church and Christ’s visible Church on earth.

 

[nmgauss]

Hmm, are you sure about that?. You meniotned Ignatius Loyola earlier. I recall a quote attributed to him.

“That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which appears to our eyes to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be black”.

Perhaps I have the context wrong?

Christian fundamentalists regard the Bible as their only authority. However, Catholics regard the dogma of the Church as their only authority. If the Church says that a white object is black, all Catholics must accept this as their truth. Since the Church is the interface between God and Catholics, only the Church can say what the truth is.

Islamic fundamentalism is being blamed for the unsettled conditions in the Muslim world. Most of the Middle East was profoundly affected by European colonization and the imposition of Western secularism upon people with traditional Islamic values. Departure from Islamic teachings as a result of exposure to Western materialistic ideas has caused deep resentment among a large segment of the Islamic world, thus prompting an effort to return to Islamic values such as has occurred in Iran and the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt. It is at the root of such terrorist organizations as Hamas, Taliban, and Hezbollah.

 

[nmgauss]

I don’t think it was Roman Catholicism at that time since Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholicism were united in one Catholic Church.

Yes, the Roman Empire extended through Greece and Anatolia to the Levant, and it was all one empire in which Roman Catholicism was the official state religion. That does not mean that everybody necessarily had to follow Roman Catholicism. It is interesting to note that the first Council of Nicaea was held in Anatolia, which a century later became part of the Byzantine Empire. Because the Roman Empire was split into western Latin and eastern Greek branches in the fifth century CE, the development of an official Eastern Orthodox organization occurred after the split when the western Latin branch was crumbling.

 

[nmgauss]

The 12 Apostles, and Mary are considered the most influential people in establishing the Christian religion, under the influence of Christ and the Holy Spirit. We put St. Paul up there, too.

 

[Major_Tom]

Amen! I give that quote a

But it appears to be a non-sequitur? Or I am not understanding your point.

I was trying to reconcile your earlier posts. First, you said:

"What we Catholics are saying is this: it is not correct to say “Popcorn is made out of buttercups!”

But if you agree with the Loyola quote, isn’t that inconsistent? If I merge the “popcorn” with Loyola: “That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined [popcorn to be made of buttercups], we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be [buttercups].”

 

[Porknpie]

PRmerger;10989703:

Does CC stand for Christian Church or Catholic Church?

Both. The Catholic Church is the Christian Church establish by Christ. St Ignatius writes in 110ad about both the Eucharist and the Church Catholic. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John…the apostle taught by Christ. Catholic deacons and bishops as well…

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Are you talking about Christianity or Roman Catholicism?

does your Christianity include the Eucharist? If not, it is not the Christianity taught by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants. Per the earlier post, Justin Martyr speaks that they had been taught about the Eucharist

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

And nowhere is the Eucharist described as being symbolic.

 

[PRmerger]

That has always been my understanding of how Protestants look at the Reformation as well. Not so much a new church per se but reformed so the gates do not prevail they might even say. Something about that is in the Bible. Although I know there is some difference in how Protestants and Catholics look at the Church. Protestants consider the Church to be the entire Body of believers and Catholics consider it to be the Catholic Church and Christ’s visible Church on earth.

And the fruit of their rebellion is we know have the chaos and confusion of tens of thousands of different Christian denominations, each claiming that their own interpretations, some of which are in complete contradiction to other denominations, are correct.

Thanks to the Prot Reformation, we now have a multitude of beliefs.

-baptism saves? Or does it just get you wet? Is it a sacrament? Or an ordinance? Do you immediately baptize infants? Or wait until the age of reason? Or must one be an adult? Do you sprinkle? Or immerse? Is it done in the Trinitarian formula or in Jesus’ name only?

-one is OSAS, or one can lose his salvation?

-will we be raptured?

-Sunday is the day of the Lord? Or is it Saturday?

And this, sadly, is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[PRmerger]

However, Catholics regard the dogma of the Church as their only authority.

Incorrect.

Catholics regard the Word of God as our authority.

 

[PRmerger]

There is a difference between creating a religious faith and spreading the word.

Ok.

St. Paul spread Christianity right away and with the help of St. Peter, became the main thrust in establishing the faith.

Ok.

The Acts of the Apostles and Paul’s epistles in the NT testify to his effectiveness.

No argument here.

Does CC stand for Christian Church or Catholic Church?

Catholic Church. But the CC is the Christian Church.

The faith was defined at Pentecost but the work of establishing the Christian Church in the Levant, Anatolia, Greece, and Rome occurred over a period of thirty years during the time of St. Paul’s missionary work.

Ok.

 

[PRmerger]

I was trying to reconcile your earlier posts. First, you said:

"What we Catholics are saying is this: it is not correct to say “Popcorn is made out of buttercups!”

But if you agree with the Loyola quote, isn’t that inconsistent? If I merge the “popcorn” with Loyola: “That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined [popcorn to be made of buttercups], we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be [buttercups].”

The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, would never proclaim something to be true which is untrue.

So your example is a nonsensical one. It’s untrue that popcorn is made out of buttercups, so the Church would never proclaim that to be so.

However, if the Church proclaims something to be black that I once viewed as white, then I would conform to the Church’s view and work backwards, attempting to understand why it is indeed black.

And I would invoke Cardinal Newman’s quote here again: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”

It is as if the professor has said, here’s the answer to this problem:

f(θ)=100(A2B3−A3B2)2−(c1B3−c2B2)2−(c2A2−c1A3)2=0,
where:
A2=3cos(θ)−5
B2=3sin(θ)
A3=3(cos(θ)−sin(θ))
B3=3(cos(θ)+sin(θ))−6
c1=p22−25−A22−B22
c2=−16−A23−B23

The answer is: “23!”
and I believe the answer is “32!”

I need to change my computations.

That’s the Catholic way. The smart way. The way to become a good mathematician.

 

[nmgauss]

nmgauss;10989952:

Both. The Catholic Church is the Christian Church establish by Christ. St Ignatius writes in 110ad about both the Eucharist and the Church Catholic. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John…the apostle taught by Christ. Catholic deacons and bishops as well…

does your Christianity include the Eucharist? If not, it is not the Christianity taught by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants. Per the earlier post, Justin Martyr speaks that they had been taught about the Eucharist

And nowhere is the Eucharist described as being symbolic.

I have always been curious about the difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Here is something I dug up:

"]"Within the Catholic Church there are a number of individual churches, sometimes called rites. One of these is the Roman rite or Roman church. It includes most of the Catholics in the Western world. A Roman Catholic is a Catholic who is a member of the Roman rite.

There are many Catholics in the East who are not Roman Catholics, such as Maronite Catholics, Ukrainian Catholics, and Chaldean Catholics. These are all in communion with the pope, but they are not members of the Roman rite, so they are not Roman Catholics."

Also, as I understand it, the term “catholic” appears for the first time in Ignatius’s writings. So, in his zeal to promote Christianity as the correct religion, he applied the term “catholic”. So it just amounts to a change of name. The term “Christianity” was a descriptive term for a faith whose official name was changed to a descriptive term for an officially correct religion. By definition, Christians automatically became Catholics because of Ignatius’s promotion of the term.

 

[PRmerger]

The term “Christianity” was a descriptive term for a faith whose official name was changed to a descriptive term for an officially correct religion. By definition, Christians automatically became Catholics because of Ignatius’s promotion of the term.

How is it that you proclaim the above, while also professing that the Catholic Church existed before the fifth century?

Yes, the Roman Empire extended through Greece and Anatolia to the Levant, and it was all one empire in which Roman Catholicism was the official state religion. That does not mean that everybody necessarily had to follow Roman Catholicism. It is interesting to note that the first Council of Nicaea was held in Anatolia, which a century later became part of the Byzantine Empire. Because the Roman Empire was split into western Latin and eastern Greek branches in the fifth century CE, the development of an official Eastern Orthodox organization occurred after the split when the western Latin branch was crumbling.

 

[mek42]

And the fruit of their rebellion is we know have the chaos and confusion of tens of thousands of different Christian denominations, each claiming that their own interpretations, some of which are in complete contradiction to other denominations, are correct.

Thanks to the Prot Reformation, we now have a multitude of beliefs.

-baptism saves? Or does it just get you wet? Is it a sacrament? Or an ordinance? Do you immediately baptize infants? Or wait until the age of reason? Or must one be an adult? Do you sprinkle? Or immerse? Is it done in the Trinitarian formula or in Jesus’ name only?

-one is OSAS, or one can lose his salvation?

-will we be raptured?

-Sunday is the day of the Lord? Or is it Saturday?

And this, sadly, is just the tip of the iceberg.

They would not have rebelled if not for the corruption they saw in the Church. Is it not more accurate to call the consequences the fruit of the corruption?

 

[PRmerger]

They would not have rebelled if not for the corruption they saw in the Church. Is it not more accurate to call the consequences the fruit of the corruption?

Yes. I don’t have a problem with that conclusion.

 

[nmgauss]

How is it that you proclaim the above, while also professing that the Catholic Church existed before the fifth century?

The roots of Christianity became grounded when St. Peter became the first pope. But the term “Catholic” introduced by St. Ignatius of Antioch was later adopted by the Church. Its use denoted the universality of the Church. In reality, there were significant differences in liturgy and belief systems of the various Christian churches lead by the bishops. There was no significant progress toward universality until the first Council of Nicaea. Even though Emperor Constantine presided over this council, the pope was not in attendance. Even so, settling the debates was a major achievement of the Council. However, Catholicism did not become the state religion until the reign of Theodosius I, some fifty years later:

He issued decrees that effectively made Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire

The term “Roman Catholic” can be applied to a church led by a pope in Rome, or to the official church of the Roman Empire. Take your pick.

 

[PRmerger]

The roots of Christianity became grounded when St. Peter became the first pope. But the term “Catholic” introduced by St. Ignatius of Antioch was later adopted by the Church. Its use denoted the universality of the Church. In reality, there were significant differences in liturgy and belief systems of the various Christian churches lead by the bishops. There was no significant progress toward universality until the first Council of Nicaea. Even though Emperor Constantine presided over this council, the pope was not in attendance. Even so, settling the debates was a major achievement of the Council. However, Catholicism did not become the state religion until the reign of Theodosius I, some fifty years later:

He issued decrees that effectively made Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire

The term “Roman Catholic” can be applied to a church led by a pope in Rome, or to the official church of the Roman Empire. Take your pick.

So we are agreed that the Roman Catholic church of today can trace its roots all the way back to St. Peter, and thus to Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, and here we have a fundamental disagreement. I know several homosexuals (to varying degrees of friendship) and will not say to them “you are disorderd”. You may do so, I will not.

Incidentally, Tom, in the context of a discussion such as this, if you were to tell me, 'PR, you are disordered"

my response would be, “Sadly, you are absolutely right.” :sad_yes:

So I don’t think there’s anything inherently incorrect about telling a person that he/she is disordered.

NB: Please note, folks, that this is not* carte blanche* permission to tell me I am disordered. There may be many a time when it is an inappropriate response to our dialogue, and I just may report you for telling me I am disordered.