Ask a Unitarian Universalist

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LisaA said:
I think the reference to literature is the original sources…maybe I’m wrong but thought it was a reference to the Bible, Torah or Koran with everything in literature for that faith in the context of the original written word providing the basis for that faith. If you think about it, the three main religions are often called People of the Book. But maybe I’m not interpreting this correctly.

Not much reference to the Bible/Torah in a UU bookstore 🙂
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Hmmm… How old does a book have to be in order to be considered an original source? There is the official UUA hymn book, Singing the Living Tradition, which contains (if I recall correctly) the UU principles, a description of the foundational religious traditions, the order of service, hymns, songs, and readings. If you counted this book as the UU’s original source, you could make a claim that it has its own literature. Not all religions have an ancient, historical text.
 
Hello … yes, I have just registered to post today. Yes, I have spent the last hour reading through all 38 pages of this thread (though I skimmed a lot in that bit about 2/3 of the way through, where it veered greatly off the OP’s topic).

So, that said …

I am a very active and current member of a UU church. And yes, we do indeed have religious education every Sunday during the regular “church year” (roughly equivalent to a school year - we are lay-led and do not conduct RE classes during the summer). The children are taught about many world religions, but the main focus is on the seven principles of Unitarian Universalism. The UUA offers credentialing programs in becoming a Director of Religious Education.

Anyhow … as an active UU, maybe I can answer some more questions that come out. I’m not interested in trying to convert anyone, don’t worry. 😃
 
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LisaA:
To add to a previous post, I think that the UU “church” would have difficulty qualifying as a church for the IRS were they to apply today. I’m not saying this to demean the UU’s but to point out my question…why call it a church since there is really nothing religious going on? As I said, my atheist parents were very comfortable in a Unitarian church. We never heard about Jesus other than as “a great teacher…” or God for that matter. As an adult, before converting (LONG BEFORE) I would occasionally attend a UU service with my mother. It just seemed like a bunch of nice people engaged in some sort of intellectual discussion. Yes there were songs and rituals but again, no talk of God or Christ or Allah for that matter.

The rules below were developed to prevent people from creating a “church” in their basement in order to get tax benefits. But when I studied this for a non-profit class I was attending, I was surprised to see how few of these characteristics were exhibited by UU’s among other sort of New Agey type churches:

IRS Definition of a Church
14 Points of Criteria

A distinct legal existence.
A Recognized creed and form of worship.
A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government.
A formal code of doctrine and discipline.
A distinct religious history.
A membership not associated with any other church of denomination.
An organization of ordained ministers.
Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study.
A literature of its own.
Established places of worship.
Regular congregations.
Regular religious services.
Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young.
Schools for the preparation of its ministers.
**The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics,together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purpose.

So since the thread is as a UU…is this a church and if so what makes you think it is?

Lisa
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I found this in an IRS search. Would you please provide a link to those fourteen points?
7.25.3.6.5* (02-23-1999)Religious Belief Defined
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The term “religious” as used in IRC 501(c)(3) is not subject to precise definition. The leading interpretation of the term was made by the Supreme Court inUnited States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965), in which the Court interpreted the phrase “religious training and belief” as used in the Universal Military Training and Service Act, 50 U.S.C. section 456 (j), in determining an individual’s eligibility for exemption from military service on religious grounds. The Court formulated the following definition: "A sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualifying for the exemption comes within the statutory definition."The Court elaborated upon theSeegerdefinition inWelsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 33 (1970), stating that "f an individual deeply and sincerely holds beliefs that are purely ethical or moral in source and content but that nevertheless impose upon him a duty of conscience to refrain from participating in any war at any time, those beliefs certainly occupy in the life of that individual a place parallel to that filled by… God in the lives of traditionally religious persons." Thus, religious beliefs include many beliefs (for example, Taoism, Buddhism, and Secular Humanism) that do not posit the existence of a Supreme Being in the conventional sense.
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Link to above text irs.gov/irm/part7/irm_07-025-003.html
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LisaA said:
Like this one?

Abraham’s Bind: & Other Bible Tales of Trickery, Folly, Mercy and Love

Just struck me funny! Thanks for the insight into the UU Sunday school. Still not sure it’s a religion in the general sense of the term.

Lisa
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Haha! See, I love that sort of thing, myself.

The description of that book reads as follows:
*With insight, thoughtfulness and wit, these provocative and entertaining re-imaginings of stories from the Bible highlight the ways God can work for and through us, even today:

Barren and despairing Sarah becomes pregnant—learning that nothing is impossible.

Jacob the trickster is, in turn, tricked into marrying the wrong wife—learning that what goes around comes around.

Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers, only to rise to wield power of life and death over them—learning that patience and integrity will win out in the end.

Through multifaceted characters, original stories and vivid natural imagery, Caduto brings this ancient world to life. He immerses you in a richly-textured experience of another time and place. Within these pages you will come to see these familiar tales through new eyes.*

To me, that’s one of the meanings of life. To not only always strive to discover and learn new things, but to also take those things we think we may know and shine new light on them, often revealing brand new insights (with which we may or may not agree, haha … yes, I am UU through-and-through). 🙂
 
mek42 said:
I found this in an IRS search. Would you please provide a link to those fourteen points?

Link to above text irs.gov/irm/part7/irm_07-025-003.html
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irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopica94.pdf

This is probably also somewhere in the Treasury Regs but this is a quick search referring to an IRS pub.

Scroll down, the 14 points were from a particular case. I think you are conflating “church” as defined by the IRS with religious belief or religious practice. The term “church” for the IRS is to allow tax exempt status. Further churches, unlike many other 501c3’s don’t have to disclose the same public information. So there is every reason to get your organization designated a church if the point is to maintain confidentiality as well as the charitable deduction for donations.

The point I’m trying to make is that the rather loose affiliation, lack of formal structure, lack of defined creed, lack of formal belief system, lack of Unitarian seminaries, make this less a church and more of a social/educational organization. This was just my impression when doing some research on tax exempt orgs.

Lisa
 
LisaA said:
irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopica94.pdf

This is probably also somewhere in the Treasury Regs but this is a quick search referring to an IRS pub.

Scroll down, the 14 points were from a particular case. I think you are conflating “church” as defined by the IRS with religious belief or religious practice. The term “church” for the IRS is to allow tax exempt status. Further churches, unlike many other 501c3’s don’t have to disclose the same public information. So there is every reason to get your organization designated a church if the point is to maintain confidentiality as well as the charitable deduction for donations.

The point I’m trying to make is that the rather loose affiliation, lack of formal structure, lack of defined creed, lack of formal belief system, lack of Unitarian seminaries, make this less a church and more of a social/educational organization. This was just my impression when doing some research on tax exempt orgs.

Lisa
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I’ll look at that document when I am other than mobile. Thank you.

I was concerned you were requiring religion to have a deity figure in your tax law understanding. Given the precedence I provided, it seems clear that the seven precepts are a religious creed. More later, I’m almost home and we are moving the bed to the new house tonight.
 
ProudUU said:
May I direct you here: sksm.edu/
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Interesting set of courses:

Queer Studies from a Multireligious Perspective
Progressive Educational Theory
SKSM and Institute of Buddhist Studies: Our Co-Sponsored Courses
Readings in Early Buddhist Texts: Middle Length Discourses, Gil Fronsdal
Topics in Buddhist Thought: Buddhism, Meat and Vegetarianism, Lisa Grumbach
History of the Shin Buddhist Tradition: Premodern, Galen Amstutz
Buddhist Japanese I, Yufuko Kurioka

online.sksm.edu/courses14.php

Anything on the Bible 😃 ?

Lisa
 
mek42 said:
Given the precedence I provided, it seems clear that the seven precepts are a religious creed.
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The seven principles represent the covenant by which UUs agree to live and how we interact with the world. They are not, however, a religious creed. A religious creed indicates a statement of belief, like religious dogma. UUism is non-creedal and non-dogmatic. We are a covenantal religion.

To quote the Rev. Lisa Ward, M.Div., UU minister:
*Abiding in covenant is an art form. A mutual creation. It must be given and received. Offered, noticed and responded to. It is a leap of faith into the unknown, welcoming what may become of the encounter. It means moving beyond securing our own space into securing space enough for others. It means entering the relationship with the understanding of a mutual capacity to learn and to teach. It means an openness to what we do not know. To practice listening and teaching. To allow for awkward, even contentious moments of exploration and experimentation. It means regarding your neighbor as a gift and a challenge to your world, but knowing he or she is equally a part of it. It means, as well, protecting the shared vision by defying inappropriate behavior, taking action when violation has occurred and protecting the vulnerability of those striving to reach the common endeavor. Being open and trusting is rarely easy – it is impossible if there are no boundaries. We honor each other by reminding ourselves of our best potential. This includes cautioning, defying, even at times protesting certain behaviors, especially when they – the behaviors – are destructive to the very fragile work of building and deepening covenant. *
 
LisaA said:
Interesting set of courses:

Queer Studies from a Multireligious Perspective
Progressive Educational Theory
SKSM and Institute of Buddhist Studies: Our Co-Sponsored Courses
Readings in Early Buddhist Texts: Middle Length Discourses, Gil Fronsdal
Topics in Buddhist Thought: Buddhism, Meat and Vegetarianism, Lisa Grumbach
History of the Shin Buddhist Tradition: Premodern, Galen Amstutz
Buddhist Japanese I, Yufuko Kurioka

online.sksm.edu/courses14.php

Anything on the Bible 😃 ?

Lisa
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Yes, though not on that particular list. You may not like what they teach, but the fact remains that UUism does indeed have its own seminary, accredited by the Association of Theological Schools.
 
ProudUU said:
Yes, though not on that particular list. You may not like what they teach, but the fact remains that UUism does indeed have its own seminary, accredited by the Association of Theological Schools.
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Thanks for the info. I thought most Unitarian Ministers came from seminaries in other traditions. I think the UU minister I knew was from Union Theological Seminary (?) in New York. One of his classmates was the minister at the Methodist Church I attended before converting to Catholicism.

BTW what IS Unitarianism? It’s not Christian although its roots were in Christianity. Is there a loose affiliation of some kind that would encompass UU and ???

Lisa
 
LisaA said:
BTW what IS Unitarianism? It’s not Christian although its roots were in Christianity.
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Well, Unitarians were originally simply Christians who did not believe in the Trinity. There have been people who have held these beliefs for nearly 2000 years, though Unitarianism as a religion didn’t really form until sometime in the 1500s. It came to America in the early 1800s, if I remember correctly.

Universalists were Christians who believed in universal salvation, and, again, Universalist beliefs have been held by people for thousands of years, but it emerged as an “organized” religion in the late 18th century.

The two traditions merged just over 50 years ago, and, yes it’s true that UUism is not considered a Christian faith. There are most definitely UUs who consider themselves Christian, in that they believe in the divinity of Jesus, but belief in that divinity is not a required belief. I, for one, do not consider myself Christian.
LisaA said:
Is there a loose affiliation of some kind that would encompass UU and ???
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I’m not quite sure what you mean by that second part of your question …
 
ProudUU said:
Well, Unitarians were originally simply Christians who did not believe in the Trinity. There have been people who have held these beliefs for nearly 2000 years, though Unitarianism as a religion didn’t really form until sometime in the 1500s. It came to America in the early 1800s, if I remember correctly.

Universalists were Christians who believed in universal salvation, and, again, Universalist beliefs have been held by people for thousands of years, but it emerged as an “organized” religion in the late 18th century.

The two traditions merged just over 50 years ago, and, yes it’s true that UUism is not considered a Christian faith. There are most definitely UUs who consider themselves Christian, in that they believe in the divinity of Jesus, but belief in that divinity is not a required belief. I, for one, do not consider myself Christian.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by that second part of your question …
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Interesting, universal salvation…what does that mean? Do they believe in an afterlife? Heaven? Hell? The belief that Jesus isn’t divine is definitely not new…isn’t that what the Arian controversy was about? Also Michael Servetus who was burned at the stake by John Calvin…

What I was trying to do was figure out where UU fits. It’s not Christian, it’s not Muslim, it’s not Hindu, it’s not Buddhist. What is it? I don’t think you can call it a deist religion because there is no demand that one believe in God right?

Again this whole line of thinking is trying to figure out what UU is. A religion? A social group? A philosophy of life? I think it began as an offshoot of Christianity although I don’t know a single UU who believes in the Divinity of Christ. Isn’t that the whole point? That Christ is NOT God, therefore no Trinity? If Christ is Divine, you aren’t a “Unitarian” anymore…

Lisa
 
LisaA said:
Interesting, universal salvation…what does that mean? Do they believe in an afterlife? Heaven? Hell? The belief that Jesus isn’t divine is definitely not new…isn’t that what the Arian controversy was about? Also Michael Servetus who was burned at the stake by John Calvin…

What I was trying to do was figure out where UU fits. It’s not Christian, it’s not Muslim, it’s not Hindu, it’s not Buddhist. What is it? I don’t think you can call it a deist religion because there is no demand that one believe in God right?

Again this whole line of thinking is trying to figure out what UU is. A religion? A social group? A philosophy of life? I think it began as an offshoot of Christianity although I don’t know a single UU who believes in the Divinity of Christ. Isn’t that the whole point? That Christ is NOT God, therefore no Trinity? If Christ is Divine, you aren’t a “Unitarian” anymore…

Lisa
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Michael Servetus is often referred to as the only UU martyr!

I think the issue might be your definition of religion. What I’m ascertaining from your posts, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that you feel the need to categorize UUism within the umbrella of a deist religion in order to consider it a religion … Is that correct?

And I know several UUs who believe in the divinity of Jesus. And I know several atheist UUs. Personally, I’m a confirmed agnostic when it comes to a god/de/ss (or maybe it’s plural, I don’t know).
 
ProudUU said:
Michael Servetus is often referred to as the only UU martyr!

I think the issue might be your definition of religion. What I’m ascertaining from your posts, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that you feel the need to categorize UUism within the umbrella of a deist religion in order to consider it a religion … Is that correct?

And I know several UUs who believe in the divinity of Jesus. And I know several atheist UUs. Personally, I’m a confirmed agnostic when it comes to a god/de/ss (or maybe it’s plural, I don’t know).
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I feel no need at all. I was just curious why UU is considered an offshoot of Christianity when they’ve rejected the basic structure of following Jesus, why they meet in what they call a church, why they call their hour on Sunday a service.

Anyway I found in Wikipedia (yeah I know it’s Wikipedia) that UU is considered “other” and is described as

***Unitarian Universalism is a religion characterized by support for a “free and responsible search for truth and meaning”, and has no accepted creed or theology ***

It’s sort of in the catch all of Wiccans, Druids, Scientologists, etc

Lisa
 
Thank you Lisa for your reply.

For the U.U. folks. No Jesus, No hell. No afterlife. No trinity… Oh my I think you must be one of the lost tribes of Israel.
 
It’s considered an offshoot of Christianity because its roots are in Christianity. We meet in a church because it’s our church. And what we have on Sunday mornings is most definitely a service. We have our own traditions, rituals, etc. I guess I don’t see why that seems to be hard to accept?

In the interest of full disclosure, I was not brought up in any faith tradition at all. I came to UUism on my own, in a search for spiritual community and fellowship, and UUism has helped me grow, spiritually, in many ways. But I didn’t come to it as a “lapsed” anything. 🙂
 
ProudUU, It is not hard to accept. As you brought the thread back to its original theme the same old " I’m catholic and correct and you are wrong" response came with it.
 
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