Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[SteveVH]

Once again, you pull out the usual suspects which are the few outrageous exceptions (rape and incest) to try to justify the reality that the vast majority of abortions in this country are simply birth control “necessary” because of poor decisions made along the way.

As to your claims of women who ‘cant afford’ to be pregnant, that too ignores the reality of adoptive parents ready, willing and able to pay all costs of the pregnancy. It ignores the reality that there are many social services, charitable organizations and community clinics that will cover these costs.

Again there are reasons for abortion, just not any really valid ones. They are invariably based on selfish interests and self justification for poor decisions. Indeed birth control isn’t 100% effective but in reality it’s pretty darned close when used properly.

You should actually do some research into the reasons for abortions. The vast majority of abortions are done of convenience, it’s not the right time, the male partner doesn’t want a child, the pregnant woman doesn’t want the physical issues associated with pregnancy. I believe the Guttmacher Instituted provided a profile of the average abortion client who is not a desperate teen or a single mother or a rape victim, but rather a single woman, mid twenties, with a white collar job and a relationship. She may want kids in the future but hey it’s the wrong time. So “sacrifice” this child for her future opportunities. This is reality and it’s unfortunate that abortion has become so routine that it’s not done with great consideration of all possible options but often as “quick fix” to a “problem.”

The real question is whether the unborn child is a human or not. The child IS alive, at least until the mother determines she no longer wants him or her. He or she has human DNA. What else is the child but a child?

The problem with your side is that you don’t have science on your side. Thus the appeal is to some sort of “rights” question where the real answer is women have abortions, because they are the only ones with the power. Might makes right in these cases.

Getting back to the thread, this is why I find religions such as UU (and Episcopal and Methodist and others) so lacking in credibility. There is simply too much relativism and no real moral foundation. Something is fine if I feel good about it, it’s not about facts, it’s not about building logical conclusions from evidence but just plain emoting.

Lisa

Awesome post!

 

[SteveVH]

well said.

I have a poster that shows baby fish, baby turtles and baby birds…the caption is that “These babies are protected by the government” The fourth picture is an unborn baby and the caption is “This baby is not protected…”

It’s the height of irony that those most vehement about protecting wildlife, even such cold blooded creatures as fish and lizards, are just as loud in promoting the unjust slaughter of babies. Go figure

Yep. Save the whales, slaughter the babies.

 

[LisaA]

Since 1976, 1,226 deaths in the U.S.

A nice graphic on capital punishment deaths world wide:
theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world

OK so an average of 45 per year over 37 years…hardly the magnitude of 300,000 abortions a year. Also consider the guilt or innocence of the parties. Yes there may have been a few criminals who were executed but later found innocent. However 100% of unborn babies are innocent. Again, consider the magnitude.

I have accepted that to be consistent I can no longer justify the death penalty, even though some recent candidates seem particularly deserving! (Gosnell, Ariel Castro, Boston Bomber) but I’m willing to accept God’s judgment on their souls and hope their incarceration will result in repentance and conversion.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

OK so an average of 45 per year over 37 years…hardly the magnitude of 300,000 abortions a year. Also consider the guilt or innocence of the parties. Yes there may have been a few criminals who were executed but later found innocent. However 100% of unborn babies are innocent. Again, consider the magnitude.

I have accepted that to be consistent I can no longer justify the death penalty, even though some recent candidates seem particularly deserving! (Gosnell, Ariel Castro, Boston Bomber) but I’m willing to accept God’s judgment on their souls and hope their incarceration will result in repentance and conversion.

BTW Major Tom, you seem like a thoughtful guy. What about UU attracts you? Not trying to be overly critical but to me it seems like little more than a social group of generally highly educated Liberals who are socially vocal but not particularly charitably inclined? Again not trying to be snarky but could you or any other proud UU tell me about the hospitals and schools and homeless shelters and soup kitchens they have built?

You see this is what attracted me to the Catholic Church. They put their money where their mouth is. Caring for the poor means more to us than voting for politicians who promise more programs with our tax dollars. But for my liberal friends, often it’s little more than lip service and lobbying for someone else to do the heavy lifting.

Lisa

 

[PRmerger]

I think it’s the height of irony that folks who like to tout themselves as “pro-life” also seem to usually (though not always) be:

A) opposed to contraception, which leads to fewer abortions;

Actually, the most common type of contraception, “the Pill”, is an abortion itself. It prevents implantation of the newly formed human life. As do IUDs.

So you may want to amend the above to say that pro-life folks are opposed to condoms, and surgery to mutilate oneself into sterility.

That would be more accurate.

 

[PRmerger]

I think it’s the height of irony that folks who like to tout themselves as “pro-life” also seem to usually (though not always) be:
B) opposed to social programs that help women and children in need;

Not this pro-lifer.

C) in favor of the death penalty;

Not this pro-lifer.

D) pro-war;

Please.

If anything is deserving of an eyeroll, this is. As if any moral person is “pro-war”.

E) pro-guns …

Not this pro-lifer.

 

[PRmerger]

I said, quite simply, that I make no apologies for standing up for the lives that already exist over potential lives.

Let’s start a discussion based on logic and reason here. You believe that the women going into abortion clinics have only “potential lives” in their wombs.

So when do you believe the “potential lives” in the wombs become “actual lives” and unable to be killed? At viability? At birth? When the umbilical cord is severed?

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve seen UU offering specific services for a subset of the congregation. Wiccans solstice celebrations come to mind. Are these open to people not of that subset, perhaps even non-UU visitors?

What about white supremacist celebrations? Would a UU congregation support this?

I wouldn’t think so.

And that’s what I find so inconsistent about the UU paradigm. “We are so tolerant” But not really.

 

[LisaA]

LisaA, my dad’s an alcoholic. When I was twelve I responded, a divorce, when my mother asked what I wanted for Christmas. I was the oldest, when I went away to college I had a chat with a sheriff’s deputy who was my LE Explorer advisor. The response I received is that the system is not able to address verbal abuse.

To me, being pro life today means sentencing a certain number of innocent children to a lifetime of abuse, many time far, far worse than anything I can imagine. Until this situation is remedied I have to vote pro choice in order to protect the quality of life of children not yet abused.

You can either call me full of drivel or you can do something to reduce the incidence of child abuse, your call. Personally, I think that adopting special needs children that have been abused is the greatest pro life act possible. A friend of mine has done this. He is an advisor to a campus bible study group, but otherwise in no way proselytizes. He and his family top my list of people who truly walk the walk.

Apologies if this post is a distraction from the purpose of the thread.

Again I suspect you subscribe to the erroneous assumption that abortion reduces or prevents child abuse. Or you believe that child abuse has been reduced substantially since abortion became legal.

In fact just the opposite has occurred. Although the bumper sticker “Every child a wanted child” sounds good, the reality is that child abuse has increased substantially since Roe. Like most feelings oriented philosophies, it doesn’t work in real life. Were this so, there would have been far more child abuse in the pre-Pill days when children were, as my grandma said, little surprises! But we have found just the opposite. It’s as SteveVH pointed out, contraception access does NOT reduce abortions, but in fact abortions have increased. Abortion has NOT reduced child abuse, it has increased.

You must go back to the root cause, and that is family breakdown. The reasons for child abuse and neglect (the latter is far more likely the reason for terminating parental rights) are like many other societal ills, the result of substance abuse, single parenthood, and a lack of education. Most abused children are in homes where substance abuse is the norm, mom has a series of “boyfriends” who are not necessarily the bio dad of any of the children. Mom doesn’t have an education. She has never been married nor had a man who could be depended upon to protect her and her children. She abuses children out of frustration, ignorance, or more likely due to her drugging/drinking. The boyfriends also abuse the children, they have no tie to them biologically and are not married to the mother. The children represent an irritation, get in the way of their sexual relationship and sap resources.

You might think that access to abortion helps but if you really think about it, what greater abuse exists than the ability to kill the baby before he or she is born? We can’t say we don’t value this baby enough to see him or her born, but any child who made it out of the womb alive will somehow be loved and treasured.

Lisa

PS my dad was also an alcoholic and I also told my mother I wanted them to divorce more than anything else in the world. They were HORRIBLE together.

 

[PRmerger]

. To me, being pro life today means sentencing a certain number of innocent children to a lifetime of abuse, many time far, far worse than anything I can imagine. Until this situation is remedied I have to vote pro choice in order to protect the quality of life of children not yet abused.

You do see that this is an argument that also allows you to kill a 2 yr old toddler in order to prevent him from being abused by a alcoholic father.

Why would you not sanction this?

 

[LisaA]

Haven’t seen something that specific in our congregation. But the solstice is definitely acknowledged. I just finished teaching a year of religious education at our church, and during the December month we presented the basics on solstice celebrations, and how there is great commonality in so many traditions during the Decemeber/June solstices.

Interesting…solstice as representing what? I think of Stonehenge for example. I understand this was a religious shrine of sorts where certain rituals were performed and the solstice appearing in the sky over the one stone.

I think our common heritage was agricultural and thus seasons, the sun, the moon were all considered significant.

Our own Catholic liturgical year is based on particular events (Easter, Christmas) and periods of time set aside such as Lent and Advent.

Just tossing this out as a difference between Christianity and those faith traditions like UU that have a different perspective to view the world.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Earlier in the thread, the subject of capital punishment came up. I do not perceive a consistency of fervor on the part of many pro-lifers when it comes to opposing capital punishment. Some posters duly recited Catholic teaching, even posting this from the cathechism:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

I submit that some states (like Texas) enact the death penalty more as retribution, and in the hopes of prevention of further crime, rather than the criteria stated above (which suggests that the unjust aggressor is extraordinary, a la Hannibal Lecter, and can’t be restrained). If you agree with my assumption, a Catholic should oppose capital punishment, right?

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined…

Earlier I posted a link (Washington Post, now timed out) to an article titled “U.S. reviewing 27 death penalty convictions for FBI forensic testimony errors”, one example of botched investigations that led to death sentences.

I’ve driven by Catholic churches and seen, dozens of times, ‘Pray to End Abortions’ signs. I’ve never seen ‘Pray to end the Death Penalty’ signs. This is anecdotal, I know.

I understand your passion on the subject; mostly, I agree with it. If you’re curious how other folks can be so seemingly inconsistent on a matter of life, know that there are others, like me, who are just as puzzled regarding the lack of consistency on capital punishment.

BTW who is probably the best known opponent to the death penalty? Does the name Sr Helen Prejean ring a bell? Believe she’s a Catholic

Lisa

 

[mek42]

Again I suspect you subscribe to the erroneous assumption that abortion reduces or prevents child abuse. Or you believe that child abuse has been reduced substantially since abortion became legal.

In fact just the opposite has occurred. Although the bumper sticker “Every child a wanted child” sounds good, the reality is that child abuse has increased substantially since Roe. Like most feelings oriented philosophies, it doesn’t work in real life. Were this so, there would have been far more child abuse in the pre-Pill days when children were, as my grandma said, little surprises! But we have found just the opposite. It’s as SteveVH pointed out, contraception access does NOT reduce abortions, but in fact abortions have increased. Abortion has NOT reduced child abuse, it has increased.

You must go back to the root cause, and that is family breakdown. The reasons for child abuse and neglect (the latter is far more likely the reason for terminating parental rights) are like many other societal ills, the result of substance abuse, single parenthood, and a lack of education. Most abused children are in homes where substance abuse is the norm, mom has a series of “boyfriends” who are not necessarily the bio dad of any of the children. Mom doesn’t have an education. She has never been married nor had a man who could be depended upon to protect her and her children. She abuses children out of frustration, ignorance, or more likely due to her drugging/drinking. The boyfriends also abuse the children, they have no tie to them biologically and are not married to the mother. The children represent an irritation, get in the way of their sexual relationship and sap resources.

You might think that access to abortion helps but if you really think about it, what greater abuse exists than the ability to kill the baby before he or she is born? We can’t say we don’t value this baby enough to see him or her born, but any child who made it out of the womb alive will somehow be loved and treasured.

Lisa

PS my dad was also an alcoholic and I also told my mother I wanted them to divorce more than anything else in the world. They were HORRIBLE together.

So why is so little emphasis placed on solving these complex problems and so much emphasis placed on simply making abortion illegal by pro-life folks? If we solved these problems, abortion would become rare again on its own, no?

I wish that we had different upbringings, you and I and all the other children raised by those unfit to do so. I am who I am in spite of my upbringing, I suspect most of us are. Ironically, my parents did not divorce; they are Catholic.

 

[LisaA]

So why is so little emphasis placed on solving these complex problems and so much emphasis placed on simply making abortion illegal by pro-life folks? If we solved these problems, abortion would become rare again on its own, no?

I wish that we had different upbringings, you and I and all the other children raised by those unfit to do so. I am who I am in spite of my upbringing, I suspect most of us are. Ironically, my parents did not divorce; they are Catholic.

Realize that the Church does not have the power of law, power of the gun or power of the purse. The problems of our society are mostly of our own making and spawned by well meaning people who didn’t understand the unintended consequences. For example Daniel Patrick Moyihan’s warning about the destruction of the black family was written decades ago. No one paid attention. In fact none other than Frederick Douglass warned against “helping the Negro” with government largesse.

The Church is certainly not in favor of promoting single motherhood, irresponsible fathers, drug abuse and dropping out of school. These are all pathologies resulting from family breakdown which is precipitated by a breakdown of morals and traditions.

The Church’s role in promoting its consistent life ethic consists of education, charity, support for women and children. The Church strives to make abortion unthinkable and unnecessary.

Contrast this with the government particularly of late with its billions of dollars to Planned Parenthood the country’s largest abortion provider, its promotion of free contraception, its ban on abstinance programs. I believe the government’s actions in supporting sexual libertinism rather than encouraging strong families has a lot to do with the chaos that has ensued.

You know the Bible verse, where your heart is there your treasure is also. The Church’s treasure goes to helping people, building hospitals and shelters, soup kitchens and most important spreading the love of Christ. The government’s “treasure” goes to paying for abortions, ineffective and fraud riddled programs, and paying off cronies, donors and lobbyists.

In other words, don’t blame the Church for the breakdown of the family. It is one of the only entities trying to maintain the cornerstones of a stable and prosperous society.

Lisa

 

[PRmerger]

So why is so little emphasis placed on solving these complex problems and so much emphasis placed on simply making abortion illegal by pro-life folks? If we solved these problems, abortion would become rare again on its own, no?

I am simply astonished that you would say such a thing. So little emphasis on solving these complex problems??

It is the Catholic Church who has been at the forefront of proclaiming the sanctity of the family. Of making sure women and children are respected. Of demanding that society treats every human person with dignity and love.

 

[mek42]

I wasn’t placing blame, just pointing out that maybe the real problems should be addressed, not just symptoms. By merely addressing the symptoms of any problem, you become just like those you criticize.

 

[mek42]

I am simply astonished that you would say such a thing. So little emphasis on solving these complex problems??

It is the Catholic Church who has been at the forefront of proclaiming the sanctity of the family. Of making sure women and children are respected. Of demanding that society treats every human person with dignity and love.

If you were to ask random people off the street what the Church’s position on abortion was vs. what the Church’s position on, say, homelessness, I think you would receive much more confident and concrete answers for the first than the second.

Put another way, ask those random people who they think of when they think anti-abortion vs who they think of when they think of preventing homelessness. I imagine that in the first case, Christianity would be the number one answer without competition, whereas the second answer might well be the government in top place.

This is what I mean, though I doubt we’ll understand each other.

 

[PRmerger]

If you were to ask random people off the street what the Church’s position on abortion was vs. what the Church’s position on, say, homelessness, I think you would receive much more confident and concrete answers for the first than the second.

Put another way, ask those random people who they think of when they think anti-abortion vs who they think of when they think of preventing homelessness. I imagine that in the first case, Christianity would be the number one answer without competition, whereas the second answer might well be the government in top place.

This is what I mean, though I doubt we’ll understand each other.

I understand you perfectly. I just think you’re arguing from an untenable position.

What a random person off the street thinks about the Church has as much acumen as what a random person off the street thinks about why we celebrate the 4th of July here in the US.

 

[LisaA]

If you were to ask random people off the street what the Church’s position on abortion was vs. what the Church’s position on, say, homelessness, I think you would receive much more confident and concrete answers for the first than the second.

Put another way, ask those random people who they think of when they think anti-abortion vs who they think of when they think of preventing homelessness. I imagine that in the first case, Christianity would be the number one answer without competition, whereas the second answer might well be the government in top place.

This is what I mean, though I doubt we’ll understand each other.

But what is your point? It’s quite confusing. First you say why doesn’t the Church do something about societal problems and when given a list of what the Church IS doing, you jump to a “man on the street” interview. While there is probably a lot of differing opinions about aborton rights, I suspect there is little argument that people are “against” homelessness. Can you see the difference? It’s as if you were asking are people for or against beating puppies…well people are generally against cruelty to animals or against people living on the streets. OTOH there are people who are VERY comfortable promoting abortion…I don’t mean just offering a choice but PROMOTING it. Did you watch the DNC last summer? An abortapalooza with Cecile Richards, Sandra Fluke and other Feminist Activists who staunchly promoted abortions and even championed taxpayer support.

As to who does the most about homelessness, you are mistaken if you think it’s the government. Most shelters, treatment facilities (homelessness is mostly a result of substance abuse or untreated mental illness) and soup kitchens are charitable endeavors and not a few of them Catholic sponsored. I doubt if most people believe the government is doing much if anything about homelessness…that’s always been more a charitable than government endeavor.

BTW back to the thread, one of the things I most admire about the Church is the outreach to the poor, the sick, the homeless, and the hungry. The Church has been at the forefront of education building schools centuries ago. As I understand it, there are more Catholic hospitals than any other single entity or religion. Many schools are or were Catholic sponsored. In the past when children needed to be placed, they went to Catholic children’s homes. Troubled youth have also benefitted from the Church’s efforts to house, feed and hopefully counsel them.

One thing I have seen among other faith traditions is the lack of the above. The faithful talk a lot, they may carry signs and protest, they may back legislation, but they don’t build a lot of schools or hospitals or shelters. Honestly to the thread, is there any sort of charitable endeavor that UUs are known for? Please accept this criticism as sincere curiosity but when I was a UU I became frustrated because it seemed to be a bunch of self satisfied smug liberals who talked a lot, claimed the high road because of their philosophies (anti war, feminist, pro gay) but did little or nothing as far as hands and feet in service to our brothers and sisters.

What say you Proud UUs? What are you proud of?

Lisa

 

[Major_Tom]

One thing I have seen among other faith traditions is the lack of the above. The faithful talk a lot, they may carry signs and protest, they may back legislation, but they don’t build a lot of schools or hospitals or shelters. Honestly to the thread, is there any sort of charitable endeavor that UUs are known for? Please accept this criticism as sincere curiosity but when I was a UU I became frustrated because it seemed to be a bunch of self satisfied smug liberals who talked a lot, claimed the high road because of their philosophies (anti war, feminist, pro gay) but did little or nothing as far as hands and feet in service to our brothers and sisters.

What say you Proud UUs? What are you proud of?

Lisa

Good question. And thank you for trying to branch out to another subject.

Two quick things come to mind: -

The religious education that my kids get at our church.

Our social activism (our church acts as a homeless shelter once a year; rummage sales that enable the less well-off to obtain quality goods/clothing; sharing the plate collection with other groups, etc.). Social activism is a significant part of our church. I think some people are drawn to that, preferring to spend there energy on making this world better, instead of spending that energy pondering what happens after this life.

The activism and charity is not unique, I know. I could volunteer at my local Catholic or Methodist Church and do the same things. But to do so with peers, peers that I have something in common with spiritually, is very rewarding. That sounds very simplistic as I type it, but it’s a sincere and profound thing, and I’m proud of it.

One thing I have seen among other faith traditions is the lack of the above. The faithful talk a lot, they may carry signs and protest, they may back legislation, but they don’t build a lot of schools or hospitals or shelters.

We don’t have a network of schools, hospitals, etc. Then again, Catholics outnumber Unitarians about 34 to 1. I do, however, see plenty of Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. hospitals and schools in my community.