Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[PRmerger]

Good question. And thank you for trying to branch out to another subject.

Two quick things come to mind: -

The religious education that my kids get at our church.

I am confused by this statement. What religious education are they getting? How long does it take to teach a child that we are obligated to feed the poor?

Is there some other sort of religious education that you believe they are getting at your church besides working at a homeless shelter?

(I am not dismissing the benefit your children get from being taught that we give everyone respect, including the homeless…)

 

[mek42]

I was not arguing. I was asking why so much emphasis on the easy treatment of symptoms than the difficult fixing of the underlying problems. Then, in response to a post claiming no such distribution of emphasis, I asked about what is seen to be done. If fixing these problems really is more important to the Church than simply making abortion illegal, then the Church is doing a poor job of getting the word out about this.

I am not denigrating the laudable social justice activities of the Church. I am saying that these most noble activities may as well be invisible when compared to efforts to restrict abortion.

Further, personally, I lean toward the side of quality of life more important than simple existence, though I do recognize that those who are not broken by hardship often go on to greatness. I do agree that most abortions are a result of careless sex, often by young people with inadequate education. Someone mentioned left wing drivel. There is drivel on the right as well, particularly about adoption as an option. The US adoption system is messed up. Overhaul this first so there can be legitimate discussion of adoption as an alternative.

 

[LisaA]

Good question. And thank you for trying to branch out to another subject.

Two quick things come to mind: -

The religious education that my kids get at our church.

Our social activism (our church acts as a homeless shelter once a year; rummage sales that enable the less well-off to obtain quality goods/clothing; sharing the plate collection with other groups, etc.). Social activism is a significant part of our church. I*** think some people are drawn to that, preferring to spend there energy on making this world better, instead of spending that energy pondering what happens after this life.***
The activism and charity is not unique, I know. I could volunteer at my local Catholic or Methodist Church and do the same things. But to do so with peers, peers that I have something in common with spiritually, is very rewarding. That sounds very simplistic as I type it, but it’s a sincere and profound thing, and I’m proud of it…

Note bolded above…excuse me but what on earth are you talking about? How much energy is spent pondering the afterlife vis a vis in active service and by whom? There is really no peer to Christians in the world of service to humanity. All over the world you will see faith based organizations of many denominations, but particularly Catholic and Evangelical Christians, helping the poor, the sick, the uneducted. If Christians are “pondering the afterlife” it’s not interfering much with their efforts…honestly I thought that was a really nasty remark. What was your point? To demean Christian charity because you don’t agree with their theology? Or are you among the mistaken masses who think Christians are “working their way to heaven?” Sincere question Tom, I really thought that remark was uncalled for.

We don’t have a network of schools, hospitals, etc. Then again, Catholics outnumber Unitarians about 34 to 1. I do, however, see plenty of Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. hospitals and schools in my community.

Again, you point to the effort by Christians. I am not saying that these organizations are exclusively Catholic although Catholics have always been known to found schools and hospitals. In fact the hospital where I work was founded by a group of Nuns who suffered incredible hardship to cross the country and build a hospital from the ground up. Pictures of these amazing Sisters in full habit, riding sidesaddle, operating shovels and tools, give you an idea of their determination.

Thus my point, some of the more liberal faith traditions do a lot more talking than acting it seems to me. Further we are happy to collaborate on efforts such as a local family shelter, a hot meal program, migrant outreach, and teen center. We don’t spend time talking about spirituality nor does it matter that our hot meal program is at a Congregational church and staffed by volunteers from seven different churches and parishes.

Obviously I don’t begrudge or demean your rummage sale but to me, whether or not I share the spiritual tradition of my fellow volunteers is totally irrelevant.

Lisa

 

[ProudUU]

What say you Proud UUs? What are you proud of?

Lisa

I’m proud of the Unitarian Universalist Service Committee, and the UU College of Social Justice.

I’m proud of the Standing on the Side of Love Campaign.

I’m proud that my church acts as an actual shelter (along with other area churches) during the winter months and directly provides food, bug spray, water, sunblock, tents, and other necessities for the summer months when the shelters close down (this is specific to my county).

I’m proud of our inclusive religious education program.

I’m proud of our ministers and other leaders, along with many of our congregants, who risk their freedom to stand for marginalized people, often being arrested in their civil disobedience.

Just for starters …

 

[LisaA]

I was not arguing. I was asking why so much emphasis on the easy treatment of symptoms than the difficult fixing of the underlying problems. Then, in response to a post claiming no such distribution of emphasis, I asked about what is seen to be done. If fixing these problems really is more important to the Church than simply making abortion illegal, then the Church is doing a poor job of getting the word out about this.

I am not denigrating the laudable social justice activities of the Church. I am saying that these most noble activities may as well be invisible when compared to efforts to restrict abortion.

Further, personally, I lean toward the side of quality of life more important than simple existence, though I do recognize that those who are not broken by hardship often go on to greatness. I do agree that most abortions are a result of careless sex, often by young people with inadequate education. Someone mentioned left wing drivel. There is drivel on the right as well, particularly about adoption as an option. The US adoption system is messed up. Overhaul this first so there can be legitimate discussion of adoption as an alternative.

Again you toss out a canard to support a confusing and I think irrelevant issue. Catholic Social Teaching is based on the primary focus of protecting the life and dignity of every human person, from conception to natural death. Thus if you think Catholics are spending “too much time” on abortion, understand both the seriousness and magnitude of the problem. Abortion kills a million Americans every three years. Abortion is a brutal and cruel means of killing a totally innocent human being. Do you question why this is such an issue?

As to the underlying problems in society, did you not read my post? What POWER does the Church have to change society? It’s not as if the Church has not spoken out, particularly of late, with regard to the attempt to destroy traditional marriage. It’s not as if the Church hasn’t spoken out about child neglect and domestic abuse. It’s not as if the Church has not spoken out against casual sex, promiscuity, and even in our own case the abuse of minors. Further not only does the Church speak but also provides literally billions of dollars to help all over the world.

What more do you want the Church to do? We have no power to enact laws, levy taxes, distribute taxpayer funds to our liking, or force people into better behavior. We can only encourage and support efforts to support traditional values that result in a more stable and prosperous society.

We speak. We act. We offer the love of Christ. What else do you think is expected?

As to “the adoption system is broken” that is a statement without any evidence. What’s ‘broken’ is that babies who would be happily adopted into loving stable two parent homes are being aborted before they have a chance. Any woman who wishes to maintain a preganancy will be innundated with support and opportunities for her child. To say otherwise is simply erroneous.

Lisa

 

[SteveVH]

I was not arguing. I was asking why so much emphasis on the easy treatment of symptoms than the difficult fixing of the underlying problems. Then, in response to a post claiming no such distribution of emphasis, I asked about what is seen to be done. If fixing these problems really is more important to the Church than simply making abortion illegal, then the Church is doing a poor job of getting the word out about this.

The Catholic Church has been feeding the poor, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless for 2000 years. It was the first to come up with a health care system; to treat the sick, rather than leave them on the corner to die. And it has always gone to the poorest of the poor to bring them life and dignity. This has been a well known fact for centuries but the Church is more interested in doing works of mercy than advertising its accomplishments. But why would you believe feeding a hungry person is more important than saving the life of a defenseless child? We must do both and so we do both.

I am not denigrating the laudable social justice activities of the Church. I am saying that these most noble activities may as well be invisible when compared to efforts to restrict abortion.

I don’t know how it is invisible, especially in this day and age. It certainly isn’t invisible to the millions that the Church has helped. The Church is also portrayed as being anti-homosexual, yet if one will research the statistics, the Catholic Church takes care of more AIDS patients than any other organization on earth, including the government. In short, the Church is at the forefront of feeding the poor, caring for the sick, bringing dignity to the dying and protecting the right of a person to live. No other person or organization even comes close.

Further, personally, I lean toward the side of quality of life more important than simple existence, though I do recognize that those who are not broken by hardship often go on to greatness.

No one, and I mean no one can predict whether or not an unborn child will be subject to a hard life. But even those with a hard life choose that hard life over death. My adopted sister was born to a 15 year old unwed mother who lived in a run down trailer. What chance of happiness did she have? Her mother, thank God, gave her up for adaption and my family’s life and her life were changed forever. She is married with two wonderful children of her own and is a fantastic teacher, helping young people every day of her life. If you were the judge, she would never have taken her first breath. This is the most bogus argument for abortion I have ever heard.

I do agree that most abortions are a result of careless sex, often by young people with inadequate education. Someone mentioned left wing drivel. There is drivel on the right as well, particularly about adoption as an option. The US adoption system is messed up. Overhaul this first so there can be legitimate discussion of adoption as an alternative.

Okay, I see your point. “Hey guys, our adoption system is messed up so lets just kill them in the womb until we get it worked out.” Great solution. This is not a widget factory. We are talking about human beings. Your entire viewpoint seems to be that we should not bring children into the world until we have made it a perfect place and can assure everyone that there will be no hardship in their lives.

The truth is that there is a very long line of people who are waiting for a child and there are many other organizations that take care of adoptions (the Catholic Church, for one). We do not have to depend upon our inefficient, bumbling government bureaucracies.

 

[tomarin]

Unitarian Universalism is a diverse movement, so I can’t speak for everyone in it. But I will do my best to answer any questions you may have about Unitarian Universalism (as I see it).

Two questions – 1. who do you believe Jesus was? and 2. what is a typical worship service like?

 

[SteveVH]

I wasn’t placing blame, just pointing out that maybe the real problems should be addressed, not just symptoms. By merely addressing the symptoms of any problem, you become just like those you criticize.

Do you mean symptoms like dying from hunger or thirst or disease due to government policies designed to keep their populations in poverty in order to retain control? And if we go in and give food to the hungry and water to the thirsty and health care to the sick we are becoming like the government who keeps them in poverty? Your statement makes no sense.

 

[Major_Tom]

I am confused by this statement. What religious education are they getting? How long does it take to teach a child that we are obligated to feed the poor?

Is there some other sort of religious education that you believe they are getting at your church besides working at a homeless shelter?

(I am not dismissing the benefit your children get from being taught that we give everyone respect, including the homeless…)

Quick overview on curriculum. As with any curriculum, it introduces and expands on the core principles, previously posted.

Lower grades might study moral teachings like the Golden Rule; ecology (Wangari Maathai, a Kenyan woman who advanced the planting of trees and female empowerment); common foundations of the major faith traditions (Abraham); and basic tenets (God’s covenant with Noah).

Sixth/seventh grade curriculum is on neighboring faiths. We study the basic tenets of the major faith groups (Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam), with field trips and guest speakers.

Eight graders have half a year studying on sexuality and adolescence. Then a trip to Boston to visit some Unitarian churches as part of a Unitarian heritage unit. Finally, they write their own credo, or statement of faith, and share it with the congregation at the end of the year.

 

[rinnie]

My guess is that some religious or ethical “truths” are more flexible than mathematical truths. One way to see this is to take a look at the acceptance of the mathematical truth that 1+1 = 2. This is universally accepted across all cultures and religions and all time spans. However, some Catholics accept Limbo, while others do not. So when you consider the “truth” about Limbo, you are up in the air and don’t have any way to decide yes or no. This is quite different from the situation of mathematical truth. Once it has been proven, it is universally accepted. For another example, take the case of the Pythagorean theorem in two dimensional Euclidean space. No one denies it. No one doubts it as being true.

Not really there are just some questions that the Holy Spirit has not revealed to the Church so Popes and Bishops can give their own personal opinions about them.

Unfortunately when they give their personal opinions about things people like to force that as Church doctrine. But it never was.

Its usually those who do not understand the teaching of our faith. Or refuse to accept the truth.

 

[rinnie]

Well, Unitarians were originally simply Christians who did not believe in the Trinity. There have been people who have held these beliefs for nearly 2000 years, though Unitarianism as a religion didn’t really form until sometime in the 1500s. It came to America in the early 1800s, if I remember correctly.

Universalists were Christians who believed in universal salvation, and, again, Universalist beliefs have been held by people for thousands of years, but it emerged as an “organized” religion in the late 18th century.

The two traditions merged just over 50 years ago, and, yes it’s true that UUism is not considered a Christian faith. There are most definitely UUs who consider themselves Christian, in that they believe in the divinity of Jesus, but belief in that divinity is not a required belief. I, for one, do not consider myself Christian.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by that second part of your question …

If they reject Christ in the Trinity who do they believed died for our sins so we could be saved?

 

[Major_Tom]

Note bolded above…excuse me but what on earth are you talking about? How much energy is spent pondering the afterlife vis a vis in active service and by whom? There is really no peer to Christians in the world of service to humanity. All over the world you will see faith based organizations of many denominations, but particularly Catholic and Evangelical Christians, helping the poor, the sick, the uneducted. If Christians are “pondering the afterlife” it’s not interfering much with their efforts…honestly I thought that was a really nasty remark. What was your point? To demean Christian charity because you don’t agree with their theology? Or are you among the mistaken masses who think Christians are “working their way to heaven?” Sincere question Tom, I really thought that remark was uncalled for.

Lisa

No slight was intended, Lisa. None at all. My point: everyone has a particular issue that they identify with, more than others. That’s where they invest their energy. Bible study, canon law… moral theology, activity in soup kitchen… you might not be personally interested in Marian visitations, whereas they may have turned someone else’s life around. There are huge posts elsewhere here on salvation by faith/by action. Personally, that topic doesn’t generate a lot of mental action on my part.

Just sharing one facet of UU identity. Some people, who lean toward the agnostic side, are attracted to that aspect. Not intended to be a “we’re more compassionate than you” competition comment. I was brought up Catholic, and understand how much time and energy is spent on outreach and action. Cool…?

 

[cheese_sdc]

What about white supremacist celebrations? Would a UU congregation support this?

I wouldn’t think so.

And that’s what I find so inconsistent about the UU paradigm. “We are so tolerant” But not really.

I really wish we’d delete the term “tolerate” from our vocabulary. I’m not tolerate of certain views, and I don’t think anyone should be “tolerant” of them either.

KKK, child molestation, etc.

See, the UU doesn’t care about what you believe, they care about how you behave. So a white supremacist probably won’t be comfortable in a UU congregation. He (or she) could come to every service they want, but if they bring their racist bovine fecal matter, then we’d have issues. Big issues.

 

[ProudUU]

Two questions – 1. who do you believe Jesus was? and 2. what is a typical worship service like?

1. I, personally, believe that Jesus was a great man who had much to teach. I only believe that he was the son of the god/de/ss in the sense that we all are sons/daughters/other of the god/de/ss (or possibly gods/goddes/goddesses). Other UUs may have a different interpretation or belief, though.
2. UU services tend to vary quite a bit from congregation to congregation, but I think it’s safe to say that just about all would include the lighting of the chalice, the singing of hymns, an offering, a sermon/sharing, and then of course the extinguishing of the chalice.

 

[Major_Tom]

If they reject Christ in the Trinity who do they believed died for our sins so we could be saved?

I’m not convniced that Jesus is divine. He could be. I think of it as a mystery. It’s possible that God also incarnated in some other form. I don’t think that it’s been fully revealed. Does that mean that I reject Christ? Yes, I reject it the way the Church defines it. What is our state in the afterlife…? I don’t know. But I don’t believe it will be dictated on whether or not I accept and live the cathechism.

 

[tomarin]

1. I, personally, believe that Jesus was a great man who had much to teach. I only believe that he was the son of the god/de/ss in the sense that we all are sons/daughters/other of the god/de/ss (or possibly gods/goddes/goddesses). Other UUs may have a different interpretation or belief, though.

It would not be strange for a UU to believe that Jesus while divine, was not equal to the divinity of God the Father, correct?

1. UU services tend to vary quite a bit from congregation to congregation, but I think it’s safe to say that just about all would include the lighting of the chalice, the singing of hymns, an offering, a sermon/sharing, and then of course the extinguishing of the chalice.

How long do they last, on average? Do you read from the Bible, or any sacred text?

 

[Major_Tom]

It would not be strange for a UU to believe that Jesus while divine, was not equal to the divinity of God the Father, correct?

Hope you don’t mind I share a thought, too. No, I don’t think that it would be strange, if I understand your question correctly.

How long do they last, on average? Do you read from the Bible, or any sacred text?

About the same length as a conventional Christian service. There’s a main sermon, with short introductory readings, usually with sung responses. Themes very, as they do with most denominations. Readings can come from the Bible, the Torah, secular writers, Buddhist writers, HIndu… there really isn’t a particular text or body of texts that is given consideration over and above the others. In that sense, there is not a “sacred” text.

 

[tomarin]

Hope you don’t mind I share a thought, too.

Not at all. If you don’t mind me asking, how did you get involved with this denomination/religion? Were your parents members of it?

Re my question, I guess what I meant was, it appears that some UU’s do believe that Jesus was divine, but the common thread in the diversity of beliefs about Jesus is that his place in the order of things is second to that of God the Father, whether that means he was “merely” a man or something greater.

About the same length as a conventional Christian service. There’s a main sermon, with short introductory readings, usually with sung responses. Themes very, as they do with most denominations. Readings can come from the Bible, the Torah, secular writers, Buddhist writers, HIndu… there really isn’t a particular text or body of texts that is given consideration over and above the others. In that sense, there is not a “sacred” text.

 

[LisaA]

No slight was intended, Lisa. None at all. My point: everyone has a particular issue that they identify with, more than others. That’s where they invest their energy. Bible study, canon law… moral theology, activity in soup kitchen… you might not be personally interested in Marian visitations, whereas they may have turned someone else’s life around. There are huge posts elsewhere here on salvation by faith/by action. Personally, that topic doesn’t generate a lot of mental action on my part.

Just sharing one facet of UU identity. Some people, who lean toward the agnostic side, are attracted to that aspect. Not intended to be a “we’re more compassionate than you” competition comment. I was brought up Catholic, and understand how much time and energy is spent on outreach and action. Cool…?

Thanks. I didn’t think you meant “mine is better than yours…” but wanted to disabuse you of the often seen claim that Christians are focused on the afterlife and thus are “working their way up the ladder…” rather than responding out of love and Christian charity.

One thing I learned in a four year Spiritual Direction course (at an Episcopal Cathedral before I was Catholic) was that there are three main paths of spirituality…study and learning, meditation/prayer, or action. I think the Indian terms were Bahkti (meditative) Gnana (study) and Karma (action). Different churches and different elements within churches have a primary focus with all three elements to some extent represented.

In my own life I’m very much of the faith in action bent, second study and learning, third meditative/prayer. But as you said, in the Church there are many who are focused upon prayer and certainly study and learning are also essential elements and tradition.

Again not to say “mine’s better” but that the outreach and action was what drew me away from UU’dom first into Methodism until I realized their untenable position on life issues (kill the innocent, save the guilty) and fled for my true Home in the Catholic Church. I attended several UU congregations both with my mother and with friends. I just didn’t find much spiritual food…as the services are described no major focus but bits and pieces from different traditions and more important, no real faith in action other than the occasional fundraiser or protest.

I found that I belonged in the Catholic Church and the term “Coming Home” truly resonated with me. As Fr Arrupe said “Fall in love and stay in love…”

Lisa

 

[Tomdstone]

It would not be strange for a UU to believe that Jesus while divine, was not equal to the divinity of God the Father, correct?

Did Jesus say The Father is greater than I?