Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[SteveVH]

What is the difference between contraception and aborting a one-day old fetus? Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed. For an already overburdened planet, I think this would be beneficial not only to the current population but to the future population. I can’t understand the difference between facilitating a fertilized egg to miscarry and never having the egg fertilized.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What is the difference between contraception and aborting a one-day old fetus? Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed. For an already overburdened planet, I think this would be beneficial not only to the current population but to the future population. I can’t understand the difference between facilitating a fertilized egg to miscarry and never having the egg fertilized.

Life is the difference.

 

[SteveVH]

What is the difference between contraception and aborting a one-day old fetus? Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed. For an already overburdened planet, I think this would be beneficial not only to the current population but to the future population. I can’t understand the difference between facilitating a fertilized egg to miscarry and never having the egg fertilized.

They are both an evil that prevents life. The difference, however, in non-abortifacient contraception is that the egg has not been fertilized and therefore no human person exists. Once conception actually occurs there exists an entirely unique being, separate form the mother or the father; a human life. The fact that it is in the first stages of development is the only difference between that fetus and you.

As for your myth that we have an overburdened planet, if you really wanted to do something, why don’t you just sacrifice your own life rather than taking the life of a completely defenseless, innocent human being who never agreed to that arrangement?

The reality is that you have to do neither. We do not have an overburdened planet. We have governments who keep their populations in poverty as a means of control. We can feed the entire planet just from our country alone. And we attempt to feed many, but the grain and other goods sit on docks and rots, or is taken to feed the those in whatever military régime that happens to be in control. “Want to eat? Then join us or starve.”

Your statement that “Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed” is absolutely disgusting. Families that loose a child also have one less mouth to feed and they mourn that fact for the rest of their lives. How they long to feed that mouth. And every one of these little ones that you would kill in order to have one less mouth to feed are no different.

 

[nmgauss]

They are both an evil that prevents life. The difference, however, in non-abortifacient contraception is that the egg has not been fertilized and therefore no human person exists. Once conception actually occurs there exists an entirely unique being, separate form the mother or the father; a human life. The fact that it is in the first stages of development is the only difference between that fetus and you.

As for your myth that we have an overburdened planet, if you really wanted to do something, why don’t you just sacrifice your own life rather than taking the life of a completely defenseless, innocent human being who never agreed to that arrangement?

The reality is that you have to do neither. We do not have an overburdened planet. We have governments who keep their populations in poverty as a means of control. We can feed the entire planet just from our country alone. And we attempt to feed many, but the grain and other goods sit on docks and rots, or is taken to feed the those in whatever military régime that happens to be in control. “Want to eat? Then join us or starve.”

Your statement that “Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed” is absolutely disgusting. Families that loose a child also have one less mouth to feed and they mourn that fact for the rest of their lives. How they long to feed that mouth. And every one of these little ones that you would kill in order to have one less mouth to feed are no different.

It makes little difference to me whether I was born or not. I think I would have enjoyed being only a potential human instead of an actual one. My life has been fraught with misery and depression, and I would not have suffered if I had never been born. That is why the Buddhist view appeals to me.

The quality of life for all of humanity matters more than whether one more human has been put into this world. Look at all the miserable people in Asia and Africa. What purpose do they have but to add to the misery of their communities.

In addition, what is the difference between a haploid reproductive cell and a diploid cell? They are all living entities. Life does not get created at conception. It already existed in a haploid form.

 

[nmgauss]

Your statement that “Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed” is absolutely disgusting. Families that loose a child also have one less mouth to feed and they mourn that fact for the rest of their lives. How they long to feed that mouth. And every one of these little ones that you would kill in order to have one less mouth to feed are no different.

Do you think that Nadya Suleiman, “Octomom”, wants all those mouths to feed? Do you think that her 14 kids enjoy being part of a family with no father?

What about all those test tube embryos that are flushed down the drain?

 

[SteveVH]

It makes little difference to me whether I was born or not. I think I would have enjoyed being only a potential human instead of an actual one. My life has been fraught with misery and depression, and I would not have suffered if I had never been born. That is why the Buddhist view appeals to me.

That is why Christ came. To deliver us; to be with us in our suffering on earth and bring us peace in the midst of it, and then to deliver us from all suffering and misery. Seek Christ and your life will change.

The quality of life for all of humanity matters more than whether one more human has been put into this world. Look at all the miserable people in Asia and Africa. What purpose do they have but to add to the misery of their communities.

Their purpose is to spend eternity with God. And if quality of life is more important than life itself then why do all of these truly miserable people desire to keep living? Throw a poor man into the middle of a lake and he will swim to shore.

In addition, what is the difference between a haploid reproductive cell and a diploid cell? They are all living entities. Life does not get created at conception. It already existed in a haploid form.

They are cells, and if left alone do not become a fetus, infant, toddler, teen, adult… Something altogether happens when an woman’s egg is fertilized by a sperm cell. If not killed, it will be born and breathe air and eat food and love and laugh and cry. Big difference.

 

[PRmerger]

In addition, what is the difference between a haploid reproductive cell and a diploid cell? They are all living entities. Life does not get created at conception. It already existed in a haploid form.

A human life is created when an immortal soul is infused into the body. This human life is made in the image and likeness of God, and therefore is inherently worthy of dignity and respect.

 

[SteveVH]

A human life is created when an immortal soul is infused into the body. This human life is made in the image and likeness of God, and therefore is inherently worthy of dignity and respect.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

Yes, it really is as simple and profound as that. Thank you.

 

[SteveVH]

It makes little difference to me whether I was born or not. I think I would have enjoyed being only a potential human instead of an actual one. My life has been fraught with misery and depression, and I would not have suffered if I had never been born. That is why the Buddhist view appeals to me.

Just wanted to say, nmgauss, that I am sorry that your life has been filled with misery and depression. We all go through a lot of things, some more so than others. It sounds like you could use some peace in your life. I want you to know that you will be in my prayers this evening at Mass and I will be praying for that intention.

God bless.

 

[LisaA]

Do you think that Nadya Suleiman, “Octomom”, wants all those mouths to feed? Do you think that her 14 kids enjoy being part of a family with no father?

What about all those test tube embryos that are flushed down the drain?

That the adults are irresponsible doesn’t mean the children are any less precious in the sight of God and their fellow man. As to the embryos that are destroyed in yet another selfish endeavor, they were unique individuals that may have brought great joy or great accomplishments to the world. We should not have the absolute power of life and death over other innocent human beings. It’s also very sad that technology has outstripped our ability to be responsible.

Your nihilist attitude makes me sad, you must not have much joy in your life and I imagine someone as educated and articulate (although sadly mistaken on some essential elements in life) has much to give. You will find that you will be so much happier if you focus on giving of the gifts you have received.

You have the power to help other people have the better life that you want to see. Use it.
See how much better you feel when you make a difference.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Back to more direct questions on this thread. Although a U when I was younger and still with friends in the same faith tradition, I wasn’t really aware of the “Universalist” side of this philosophy. As I read the description of when UU’s came together, the Universalists promoted universal salvation when other religions were preaching fire and brimstone. they are sort of like the opposite of Calvinists right?

I don’t believe the Universalists were as well established or well known as Unitarians but one thing I wondered when reading the website on “What UU’s Believe” is that the idea of universal “salvation” would necessarily mean some sort of afterlife right? IOW what is your salvation from if not from the pits of h**l?

Just curious.

Lisa

 

[Darryl_B]

What is the difference between contraception and aborting a one-day old fetus? Both have the consequence that there are fewer mouths to feed. For an already overburdened planet, I think this would be beneficial not only to the current population but to the future population. I can’t understand the difference between facilitating a fertilized egg to miscarry and never having the egg fertilized.

That is what I would class as class preference. Who decides who’s child lives or dies and who’s child is the mouth to feed for the future good of humanity. You? I mean that is really what you are saying. Get these mouths of burden off this planet so we can feed these mouths of importance? We can snub out this life so that all the things they would have had can be given to this more important person instead? Really? I have heard that all before in eugenics, that precursored Darwin.

 

[LisaA]

That is what I would class as class preference. Who decides who’s child lives or dies and who’s child is the mouth to feed for the future good of humanity. You? I mean that is really what you are saying. Get these mouths of burden off this planet so we can feed these mouths of importance? We can snub out this life so that all the things they would have had can be given to this more important person instead? Really? I have heard that all before in eugenics, that precursored Darwin.

And from Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood. She was not the kindly figure wanting to release women from the “chains” of motherhood as is claimed by PP but in fact was a disgusting elitist wanting to rid the world of “human weeds,” in other words, minorities and those of certain ethnic groups.

What I appreciate about Christianity that I think is missing in certain other faiths, is that we are all to be considered of equal worth in the sight of God. I admit sometimes being challenged by those whom I find particularly difficult to appreciate, but as I Christian I can’t categorize people like produce at the supermarket. Which is worth keeping and which must be tossed out.

Lisa

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And from Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood. She was not the kindly figure wanting to release women from the “chains” of motherhood as is claimed by PP but in fact was a disgusting elitist wanting to rid the world of “human weeds,” in other words, minorities and those of certain ethnic groups.

What I appreciate about Christianity that I think is missing in certain other faiths, is that we are all to be considered of equal worth in the sight of God. I admit sometimes being challenged by those whom I find particularly difficult to appreciate, but as I Christian I can’t categorize people like produce at the supermarket. Which is worth keeping and which must be tossed out.

Lisa

Many of the greatest people in the history of humanity have come from poor backgrounds, Brahams and Beethovan to name a few. Poor people are not worthless!!

 

[LisaA]

Many of the greatest people in the history of humanity have come from poor backgrounds, Brahams and Beethovan to name a few. Poor people are not worthless!!

Indeed…we should never substitute our judgment regarding who lives or dies for that of God. This is why I so regret all of the abortions. Knowing of several incredible people who would not have graced our world had their mothers not fought against the pressure to abort, I wonder at the many souls in heaven who were never allowed to share their gifts and graces. We are the loser in this continued genocide.

Again any religion that promotes “choosing” among who is “worthy” to live or die needs to do some SERIOUS soul searching. Speaking as a former embryo I hope some of my future brothers and sisters will have the same opportunities as I.

Lisa

 

[nmgauss]

Indeed…we should never substitute our judgment regarding who lives or dies for that of God. This is why I so regret all of the abortions. Knowing of several incredible people who would not have graced our world had their mothers not fought against the pressure to abort, I wonder at the many souls in heaven who were never allowed to share their gifts and graces. We are the loser in this continued genocide.

Again any religion that promotes “choosing” among who is “worthy” to live or die needs to do some SERIOUS soul searching. Speaking as a former embryo I hope some of my future brothers and sisters will have the same opportunities as I.

Lisa

What do you advocate when more and more sick babies who, as mature individuals, require support from the rest of us? This places a greater burden on our population. More and more resources are diverted from productive enterprises so that indigent people don’t die. This is a drag on the economy as a whole.

The principle is similar in the upcoming government-run health insurance program. Poor people are not required to pay, but are still entitled to benefits. This means higher premiums for people who are required to pay. Instead of using the money to invest in job-producing productive enterprises, it must be diverted to supporting the bottom economic level, which has a higher fertility rate than the rest of us. This amounts to poor people having large numbers of poor children, which then as adults add to the already large number of paupers.

 

[LisaA]

What do you advocate when more and more sick babies who, as mature individuals, require support from the rest of us? This places a greater burden on our population. More and more resources are diverted from productive enterprises so that indigent people don’t die. This is a drag on the economy as a whole.

The principle is similar in the upcoming government-run health insurance program. Poor people are not required to pay, but are still entitled to benefits. This means higher premiums for people who are required to pay. Instead of using the money to invest in job-producing productive enterprises, it must be diverted to supporting the bottom economic level, which has a higher fertility rate than the rest of us. This amounts to poor people having large numbers of poor children, which then as adults add to the already large number of paupers.

Look I could launch into a “why the government has ruined the family” speech which I firmly believe. But it’s way off topic. That being said, I am all for using Catholic social teaching as a guide for both government and charitable efforts. The combination of solidarity and subsidiarity will in my opinion and clearly in practice, work to avoid more and more government dependency.

As to the thread, where I find fault with what is deemed “the Religious Left,” is that they tend to push government solutions. You can look back on this thread and one UU railed against pro life people for “voting against food stamps” as if that program has been a howling success. Further it’s MUCH easier to spend someone else’s money in the form of government programs, than to get off your butt and do something about the problem. It seems that you have the same approach, let the government do something about these slackers…and believe me there ARE slackers using our tax dollars (did you see the profile of the surfer dude on food stamps?) But the reality is that when we export our duty to our fellow citizens to the government, we not only lose touch with what is actually happening and our ability to prevent problems, but billions of dollars is wasted.

What I would love to see in all communities, whether religious or secular or whatever, is that we work in our community to solve problems, to address issues and to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick…” This incredible concept of subsidiarity could be the miracle we need to turn around those on a road to misery and despair.

Lisa

 

[PRmerger]

What do you advocate when more and more sick babies who, as mature individuals, require support from the rest of us?

Just to be clear, nmgauss: you are certainly NOT advocating infanticide here, right?

Because it sounds as if you are saying that sick babies require support from the rest of us and therefore…what?

 

[nmgauss]

Just to be clear, nmgauss: you are certainly NOT advocating infanticide here, right?

Because it sounds as if you are saying that sick babies require support from the rest of us and therefore…what?

If there was a campaign to minimize the birth of sick babies, this would help. Screening for birth defects and serious metabolic problems would exert pressure on prospective parents to discourage them from having babies.

The idea of helping the poor that is promulgated by liberals has little in the way of obligations of the poor toward the helpers. I have heard people say that Democrats like people to depend on them so that they have more power in the ballot box. If there was a sense of JFK’s admonition about asking what you can do for your country, I think the donators would be more satisfied that their money is doing good.

In past years when my father delivered milk to grocery stores, he was teased by a group of welfare recipients that he was a sucker for working. They gloated that they were able to pull money out of the government and they did not have to lift a finger. Leeches they were.

 

[PRmerger]

If there was a campaign to minimize the birth of sick babies, this would help.

What about sickly babies that are already born? Do you believe that it’s humane and the right thing to do to euthanize them to put help them out of their suffering?