Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[nmgauss]

What about sickly babies that are already born? Do you believe that it’s humane and the right thing to do to euthanize them to put help them out of their suffering?

It is done to horses, dogs, and cats. Why is there a saying that a person “rests in peace” after dying? Also, why is a good person “in a better place” after dying? If one’s existence is miserable 24/7, why not facilitate their death? Dr. Kevorkian did it for terminally ill people, and many people thought he was a hero.

When I went in the hospital for surgery on my abdomen, I was in pain with sciatica until the anesthetic took effect after which I felt nothing. When the anesthetic wore off and I awoke, my sciatic pain returned. If being alive means constant pain, why strive to be alive? Since I had hopes that the pain might subside, I persisted. Otherwise, I might have wished to be put out of my misery.

 

[PRmerger]

What about sickly babies that are already born? Do you believe that it’s humane and the right thing to do to euthanize them to put help them out of their suffering?

It is done to horses, dogs, and cats. Why is there a saying that a person “rests in peace” after dying? Also, why is a good person “in a better place” after dying? If one’s existence is miserable 24/7, why not facilitate their death? Dr. Kevorkian did it for terminally ill people, and many people thought he was a hero.

That is the **most diabolical **position I have ever read on the CAFs. Infanticide.

 

[LisaA]

It is done to horses, dogs, and cats. Why is there a saying that a person “rests in peace” after dying? Also, why is a good person “in a better place” after dying? If one’s existence is miserable 24/7, why not facilitate their death? Dr. Kevorkian did it for terminally ill people, and many people thought he was a hero.

When I went in the hospital for surgery on my abdomen, I was in pain with sciatica until the anesthetic took effect after which I felt nothing. When the anesthetic wore off and I awoke, my sciatic pain returned. If being alive means constant pain, why strive to be alive? Since I had hopes that the pain might subside, I persisted. Otherwise, I might have wished to be put out of my misery.

Once again you suggest second guessing others’ lives. What you might choose for yourself is one thing, but to suggest you know whether someone’s life is worth living or not seems to be frightenly arrogant. Your profile says non-denominational so I don’t know if you have any belief system or not but even the most liberal of denominations do not advocate outsiders determing whether a ‘mercy killing’ is appropriate or not. There we many legitimate concerns about the Obamacare death panels and make no mistake they did exist. Even Lefty of lefties Howard Dean said this should not be a part of our healthcare system.

Aside from that there are many ways to mitigate acute or chronic pain and no one should be in the position of hoping for or speeding up their death (or for a loved one) due to pain—emotional as well as physical.

I suspect we all know situations where someone was not expected to survive or if they did survive would be horribly compromised and yet eventually they recovered or if they did not recover were able to adapt to whatever remaining challenges they faced. Again the Catholic consistent life ethic is conception until natural death. This does not mean overly heroic steps to perpetuate life when there is a natural process of dying but it does mean providing appropriate treatment and support and letting God decide (or if you don’t believe in God letting nature rather than someone else decide when it’s time go leave this earth)

BTW your suggestion of screening for birth defects is happening currently. I understand 90% of babies who are thought to have Down’s Syndrome or other chromosome disorders such as Rick Santorum’s daughter Bella (Trisomy 18 I think) are aborted. Not only is this sad because these children do have happy and fulfilling lives as well as blessing those around them, but sometimes the diagnosis is incorrect and a healthy baby is aborted just to avoid the possibility. Pope Francis said we live in a throwaway society. This is nothing to brag about.

Lisa

 

[nmgauss]

That is the **most diabolical **position I have ever read on the CAFs. Infanticide.

Why is it accepted for one’s pets but not for one’s miserable child? Many pet owners treat their pets as children and often spend thousands of dollars keeping them alive.

Threatened infanticide is described in several places in the Bible as punishment. It is not meant to be diabolical. When a king orders sacrifice of the first born, it is accepted as within the powers of the king. People are supposed to shape up and stop doing what has been commanded. If they ignore the king, the taking of the first born is an option.

How about the bombing of France in WWII? Thousands of children were killed. Did anybody call the bombers diabolical? In Afghanistan, children are killed everyday. Is this diabolical?

 

[Tomdstone]

How about the bombing of France in WWII? Thousands of children were killed. Did anybody call the bombers diabolical? In Afghanistan, children are killed everyday. Is this diabolical?

IMHO, the bombing of Dresden, the dropping of A-bombs on Japan, and perhaps other incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan, were war crimes and unjustified crimes against innocent civilians.

 

[cmodrmac]

I apologize for the more strident tone of some of the members-Churches with sacraments such as RC -ECUSA -Orthodox -Old catholics have a wonderful mechanism of dealing with shame and guilt -the sacrament of reconciliation - it has other names-

how to Unitarians deal with such issues-

 

[mek42]

I apologize for the more strident tone of some of the members-Churches with sacraments such as RC -ECUSA -Orthodox -Old catholics have a wonderful mechanism of dealing with shame and guilt -the sacrament of reconciliation - it has other names-

how to Unitarians deal with such issues-

Very good question. Looking forward to hearing g the ensuing discussion.

 

[PRmerger]

Why is it accepted for one’s pets but not for one’s miserable child? Many pet owners treat their pets as children and often spend thousands of dollars keeping them alive.

I don’t think the paradigm should be: if it’s acceptable for one’s pets then it ought to be acceptable for our children.

For that opens up lots of practices that you wouldn’t want to impose upon your baby. We keep pets in cages. We give our pets to complete strangers to keep while we are on vacation. We give our pets disgusting food that we would never eat. And make them drink water from a bowl on the floor.



We make dogs defecate on the lawn in front of everyone, and don’t wipe them clean.

No. I don’t think, “If it’s good enough for one’s pets it’s good enough for our children” is a very moral paradigm to espouse.

 

[PRmerger]

Threatened infanticide is described in several places in the Bible as punishment. It is not meant to be diabolical. When a king orders sacrifice of the first born, it is accepted as within the powers of the king. People are supposed to shape up and stop doing what has been commanded. If they ignore the king, the taking of the first born is an option.

It is described in the Bible as a heinous activity. It is, in fact, thwarted by the actions of an Egyptian princess.

How about the bombing of France in WWII? Thousands of children were killed. Did anybody call the bombers diabolical? In Afghanistan, children are killed everyday. Is this diabolical?

Absolutely it is.

 

[LisaA]

Why is it accepted for one’s pets but not for one’s miserable child? Many pet owners treat their pets as children and often spend thousands of dollars keeping them alive.

Threatened infanticide is described in several places in the Bible as punishment. It is not meant to be diabolical. When a king orders sacrifice of the first born, it is accepted as within the powers of the king. People are supposed to shape up and stop doing what has been commanded. If they ignore the king, the taking of the first born is an option.

How about the bombing of France in WWII? Thousands of children were killed. Did anybody call the bombers diabolical? In Afghanistan, children are killed everyday. Is this diabolical?

Often those looking to justify their theories claim that this is “in the Bible” without noting that many of these stories are from the Hebrew Bible, rather than the New Testament. Further most of the atrocities (from our modern perspective) were also acts that Yahweh did not condone either! It’s the convenient pick and choose without any context so don’t waste anyone’s time with such comments as in your second paragraph.

As to equating pets and people, PRMerger does an outstanding job of pointing out some important differences. As an absolute and total animal nut, I have spent large sums of money and more than a little emotional currency on my pets. However in no way do I equate them with my fellow human beings. I do have the literal power of life and death over animals and have made the excruciating decision with respect to an animal that was not going to recover from a painful illness. I would never think of making the same decision for a fellow human. There IS a difference between men and animals. Even a secular biologist knows that much.

But let’s get back to the thread, do you think UUs have this kind of attitude toward fellow humans whose lives are “not worthy” of continued medical or financial support? I don’t think so other than with respect to the issue we’ve discussed and that is killing unborn children. I hope and believe that UUs do not think “mercy killing” is appropriate but mabye someone from that faith can weigh in. Or, rather than suggesting “mercy killing” how does the UU faith consider assisted suicide? Is this ever appropriate? Would you help a loved one who has expressed a desire to die? What would the UU do?

Lisa

 

[PRmerger]

Often those looking to justify their theories claim that this is “in the Bible” without noting that many of these stories are from the Hebrew Bible, rather than the New Testament.

Indeed–the fact that something is “in the Bible” ought not be mistaken for “this means that God commanded it.”

Cain slew Abel. This is “in the Bible”. But no moral person would ever say: “This means that God commands that brothers kill each other!”.

The fact that there is infanticide in the Bible does not mean that God sees this as good. In fact, the Bible is quite clear that infanticide is an abomination. It is “evil in” the eyes of God.

“‘The people of Judah** have done evil in my eyes,** declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.–Jeremiah 7

 

[LisaA]

***Indeed–the fact that something is “in the Bible” ought not be mistaken for “this means that God commanded it.”***Cain slew Abel. This is “in the Bible”. But no moral person would ever say: “This means that God commands that brothers kill each other!”.

The fact that there is infanticide in the Bible does not mean that God sees this as good. In fact, the Bible is quite clear that infanticide is an abomination. It is “evil in” the eyes of God.

]

GREAT POINT! I will have to remember the quote for future unfounded attacks based on Biblical passages. In fact if you look at the Bible as a whole, it’s filled with stories of MAN ignoring God’s commandments and doing as they wish----with disasterous results. The BIble is filled with God’s wishes for His creation, that they love each other, that they care for widows and orphans. Those religions that did promote child sacrifices were regularly called evil and depraved by God who sent His people to stop this hideous practice.

Whether or not you believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, it remains a book of great wisdom and teaching.

Lisa

 

[ffg]

It is very important to me with this site to understand better the information that was glazed over in my youth, and to see understanding from those who question that information.

I see fruitful understanding when others feel comfortable to share about themselves a little deeper than only a screen name.

We’ve seen this twice in the last few pages of this thread. There is a lot of information and the world is a place where this type of communication is being pushed out of communities under the guise ‘freedom from’.

Where real freedom will come with knowing and understanding the information, not running from it.

Thank you to the non-Catholic contributors of this thread, all can see it’s been a winner.

Take care,

 

[CHRISTINE77]

When I went in the hospital for surgery on my abdomen, I was in pain with sciatica until the anesthetic took effect after which I felt nothing. When the anesthetic wore off and I awoke, my sciatic pain returned. If being alive means constant pain, why strive to be alive? Since I had hopes that the pain might subside, I persisted. Otherwise, I might have wished to be put out of my misery.

You might but I doubt it.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I apologize for the more strident tone of some of the members-Churches with sacraments such as RC -ECUSA -Orthodox -Old catholics have a wonderful mechanism of dealing with shame and guilt -the sacrament of reconciliation - it has other names-

how to Unitarians deal with such issues-

I think they just don’t acknowledge sin.

 

[Alizarin]

I don’t think the paradigm should be: if it’s acceptable for one’s pets then it ought to be acceptable for our children.

For that opens up lots of practices that you wouldn’t want to impose upon your baby. We keep pets in cages. We give our pets to complete strangers to keep while we are on vacation.

And we give our kids over to daycare workers and teachers we don’t exactly know intimately.

We give our pets disgusting food that we would never eat.

Remember school cafeteria food?

And make them drink water from a bowl on the floor.

Outdoors in the summer we’d drink from the hose.

We make dogs defecate on the lawn in front of everyone…

We make our middle schoolers shower with each other after gym class while a middle aged PE teacher in jogging pants and a mustache from 1978 stares at them to make sure they’re not skipping it. That’s pretty bleepin’ weird when ya think about it.

Just sayin’…

 

[PRmerger]

And we give our kids over to daycare workers and teachers we don’t exactly know intimately.

Remember school cafeteria food?

Outdoors in the summer we’d drink from the hose.

We make our middle schoolers shower with each other after gym class while a middle aged PE teacher in jogging pants and a mustache from 1978 stares at them to make sure they’re not skipping it. That’s pretty bleepin’ weird when ya think about it.

Just sayin’…

Just sayin’…what,exactly?

 

[Boulder257]

And we give our kids over to daycare workers and teachers we don’t exactly know intimately.

Remember school cafeteria food?

Outdoors in the summer we’d drink from the hose.

We make our middle schoolers shower with each other after gym class while a middle aged PE teacher in jogging pants and a mustache from 1978 stares at them to make sure they’re not skipping it. That’s pretty bleepin’ weird when ya think about it.

Just sayin’…

Surely you are not comparing the two and arguing for treating our kids like our pets. Please tell me you are not actually advocating that stance.

 

[LisaA]

And we give our kids over to daycare workers and teachers we don’t exactly know intimately.

Remember school cafeteria food?

Outdoors in the summer we’d drink from the hose.

We make our middle schoolers shower with each other after gym class while a middle aged PE teacher in jogging pants and a mustache from 1978 stares at them to make sure they’re not skipping it. That’s pretty bleepin’ weird when ya think about it.

Just sayin’…

How silly. Not even close to equating the two. As to school cafeteria food, I loved Sloppy Joes and fish sticks. We never got them at home. These days school cafeterias are almost commercial restaurants with their variety. This is hardly the same as Alpo or keeping pets in cages.

What does this have to do with the thread? You believe UU’s think children should be treated like animals?

Lisa

 

[Major_Tom]

It is very important to me with this site to understand better the information that was glazed over in my youth, and to see understanding from those who question that information.

I see fruitful understanding when others feel comfortable to share about themselves a little deeper than only a screen name.

We’ve seen this twice in the last few pages of this thread. There is a lot of information and the world is a place where this type of communication is being pushed out of communities under the guise ‘freedom from’.

Where real freedom will come with knowing and understanding the information, not running from it.

Thank you to the non-Catholic contributors of this thread, all can see it’s been a winner.

Take care,

well said.