Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[yessisan]

Sorry to be so ignorant about these things, but I am a bit skeptical of things I haven’t really seen or experienced, such as witches and such… to me, the same goes with some of the beliefs of the Charismatics.

3-4 wks ago, I was at a chapel (it wasn’t a Mass or anything like it, it was just an informal meeting) and married couples were blessed with holy oil put on our hands. As soon as this certain couple came up and their hands were touched the wife fainted and fell onto the pews. Her DH caught her and he just looked embarrased and said “Don’t worry, this happens all the time, give her a few secaonds and she’ll wake up”.

In moments like these, how does one know if it’s really a thing done by the Holy Spirit, and how does one know when it’s an emergency or just a fake thing to bring people’s attention? This same woman once, said she believes to have the gift of tonges… I don’t really understand these things.

Can someone explain these things to me? Please?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sorry to be so ignorant about these things, but I am a bit skeptical of things I haven’t really seen or experienced, such as witches and such… to me, the same goes with some of the beliefs of the Charismatics.

3-4 wks ago, I was at a chapel (it wasn’t a Mass or anything like it, it was just an informal meeting) and married couples were blessed with holy oil put on our hands. As soon as this certain couple came up and their hands were touched the wife fainted and fell onto the pews. Her DH caught her and he just looked embarrased and said “Don’t worry, this happens all the time, give her a few secaonds and she’ll wake up”.

In moments like these, how does one know if it’s really a thing done by the Holy Spirit, and how does one know when it’s an emergency or just a fake thing to bring people’s attention? This same woman once, said she believes to have the gift of tonges… I don’t really understand these things.

Can someone explain these things to me? Please?

We don’t know when these things are real or done for attention.

From my experience in the past with Charismatic, there is a little of both.

I in fact, saw a 5yr old girl healed. When she entered the Church, she couldn’t walk, when Fr D’orio anointed her, she was healed. I also had the girl as a confirmation student, 10 years later and I was able to talk to her about it. She was no fake.

On the other hand, I saw a woman at a healing service, staring out into space with her hands raised, as if she was experiencing a vision. Was it real? I don’t know, but it looked like more for show than the real thing. Experiences like this, and people being slain in the spirit, sometimes to the detriment of their health, turned me away from the Charismatic movement.

I think you have to take it with a grain of salt, and ask God to guide you.

The Charismatic movement wasn’t for me, but I can’t say its not for other people.

Jim

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

hi yessisan, I am part of a charismatic catholic young adult ministry and often find myself in your position but I would always give God the benefit of the doubt to seek out those who fake. I went to a healing Mass and honestly felt nothing. I did reflect on this experience and learned the value of truly trusting thy neighbor because the priest would use holy oil, make the sign of the cross on my forehead, and upon that contact was a nonverbal cue to fall back. I had to trust the person behind me to catch me. Everyone’s experience is different, but this was my experience. Regarding the gift of tongues, I honestly faked mine to sort of go along with the crowd but I eventually stopped. Speaking in tongues means speaking in a different dialect that you are not familiar with which the apostles needed to spread the Good News of the Lord. Charismatics state that this is a language between only you and God which even the devil cannot interpret. Also leaders were instructed to lead people into tongues by reciting the alphabet fast or something. Basically repititious garble, but I have stopped that. Definately need an interpreter of tongues. I would take wisdom over tongues any day.

 

[yessisan]

We don’t know when these things are real or done for attention.

From my experience in the past with Charismatic, there is a little of both.

I in fact, saw a 5yr old girl healed. When she entered the Church, she couldn’t walk, when Fr D’orio anointed her, she was healed. I also had the girl as a confirmation student, 10 years later and I was able to talk to her about it. She was no fake.

On the other hand, I saw a woman at a healing service, staring out into space with her hands raised, as if she was experiencing a vision. Was it real? I don’t know, but it looked like more for show than the real thing. Experiences like this, and people being slain in the spirit, sometimes to the detriment of their health, turned me away from the Charismatic movement.

I think you have to take it with a grain of salt, and ask God to guide you.

The Charismatic movement wasn’t for me, but I can’t say its not for other people.

Jim

That’s one thing that can’t be explained scientifically but we believe it… the 5 yr old being healed, if I had seen it, I’d believe it, and my faith would become much stronger (even by reading about it here makes me believe it). That in itslef is a miracle, but yes, like the woman you mentioned, those are the ones I have a hard time believing.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

I in fact, saw a 5yr old girl healed. When she entered the Church, she couldn’t walk, when Fr D’orio anointed her, she was healed. I also had the girl as a confirmation student, 10 years later and I was able to talk to her about it. She was no fake.

This is true Jim, and it is an awesome site to witness healing both physical and spiritual. Amen.

 

[yessisan]

hi yessisan, I am part of a charismatic catholic young adult ministry and often find myself in your position but I would always give God the benefit of the doubt to seek out those who fake. I went to a healing Mass and honestly felt nothing. I did reflect on this experience and learned the value of truly trusting thy neighbor because the priest would use holy oil, make the sign of the cross on my forehead, and upon that contact was a nonverbal cue to fall back. I had to trust the person behind me to catch me. Everyone’s experience is different, but this was my experience. Regarding the gift of tongues, I honestly faked mine to sort of go along with the crowd but I eventually stopped. Speaking in tongues means speaking in a different dialect that you are not familiar with which the apostles needed to spread the Good News of the Lord. Charismatics state that this is a language between only you and God which even the devil cannot interpret. Also leaders were instructed to lead people into tongues by reciting the alphabet fast or something. Basically repititious garble, but I have stopped that. Definately need an interpreter of tongues. I would take wisdom over tongues any day.

Hi Oshiego… thanks for your reply! I often wonder how many fake it and how many are real. But can you explain something to me? The falling backwards… is it an automatic thing that suddenly happens or is it done by the person on purpose trusting the person behind them will catch them? My grandma told me my uncle (her son) went to a healing Mass with charismatics and he did faint and fell back when the priest touched his forehead… I know my uncle, so he wouldn’t lie about this, but how does it work?

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

yess, it has to be an openess and willingness of the participant. I was not obviously open but skeptical… so for me, I fell back just because I saw everyone else fall back and that Father gently pushed me to fall back when I did not move after he anointed me with oil. Like many things, it is an individual experience.

 

[water]

For this, don’t look the outside sign to validate if it is from God or from something else. Look to the heart of the person who receives the gifts - is he getting closer to God?

If he is closer to God, then whatever it is, be at peace that God will take care of those who seek Him.

If you are not comfortable with Cahrismatic, you don’t have to go for it.

It is all coming down to the same purpose - Talk to God and do His Wil.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

It’s indisputable that there have been charismatic gifts given to the Church from earliest times. I don’t think they’re exclusive to any group within the Church. They can come even to great sinners as a means to motivate their repentance. In the past several decades, there has been a concern regarding cross-over with Pentecostal sects. You need to be mindful of these problems: Catholic Reason

 

[Pani_Rose]

I have been part of the Charismatic Renwal for 30 years now. From time to time you will see someone who is faking, you will see someone who is emotionally unstable. However, most of the time you see very sincere people who are within the workings of the Holy Spirit.

I remember an instance where a woman did what you said of the woman above everytime she received Eucharist. She was not part of the CR. The priest along with those of us aware of it, felt that it was not of God. One reason, God is a God of order.

I am sure there are times when people are so overcome by the love of God upon receiving him in the Eucharist that they ‘rest in the Holy Spirit’. But everytime, it really needed to be decerned by those in authority, that if it is was not, then she got the help she needed. If it was authentic, then all praise be given to our Lord for his marvelous works.

With all of that being said, I have seen many people who are so overcome by the love of God upon being annointed that they do rest momentarily. She may have been fasting and in prayer for a great while which would have allowed her a greater awareness of God’s love in the sacramental, bringing about the action you mentioned.

 

[RoyJr]

hi yessisan, I am part of a charismatic catholic young adult ministry and often find myself in your position but I would always give God the benefit of the doubt to seek out those who fake. I went to a healing Mass and honestly felt nothing. I did reflect on this experience and learned the value of truly trusting thy neighbor because the priest would use holy oil, make the sign of the cross on my forehead, and upon that contact was a nonverbal cue to fall back. I had to trust the person behind me to catch me. Everyone’s experience is different, but this was my experience.

Did you fall back on your own or did you truly surrender to the power of The Holy Spirit? “the Holy Spirit will come upon you & the power of the Most High will overshadow you” Lk 1:35

Regarding the gift of tongues, I honestly faked mine to sort of go along with the crowd but I eventually stopped. Speaking in tongues means speaking in a different dialect that you are not familiar with which the apostles needed to spread the Good News of the Lord. Charismatics state that this is a language between only you and God which even the devil cannot interpret.

Whether speaking, praying, or singing in tongues the language that is being uttered is an actual language, either common, past or future tongue of which God knows as He knows all things. "In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will" Rom 8:26-27 The apostles of the early church as well as all members of God’s church needed & need to adhere to God’s holy will as the scripture says. The Holy Spirit speaks through us, prays for us & sings His praises through the “authentic” gift of tongues, not a faked emotoinalism or “garble”.

Also leaders were instructed to lead people into tongues by reciting the alphabet fast or something. Basically repititious garble, but I have stopped that. Definately need an interpreter of tongues.

This is a misinterpretation of 1 Cor 14. Paul spoke of “speaking” in tongues, but there are other “forms” of the gift of tongues as I mentioned above: speaking, praying, singing etc. One does not need an interpreter when praying or singing in tongues, that s the Spirit of God working through the person to either lift up the person to God in prayer or to glorify God in song. It is a personal prayer from the Holy Spirit to God the Father & Son. This needs to be understood & is very important as the false notion of the need for interpretation everytime one uses the gift of tongues has caused many problems among “charismatics” & “nom-charismatics”.

I suggest that anyone that may misunderstand the gifts St. Paul mentions in 1 Cor 12 to read THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT by Fr. John H.Hampsch C.M.F.

I would take wisdom over tongues any day.

Accepting one gift over another? That’s cafeteria catholicism, & may in fact be a sin against the Holy Spirit. Be very careful my friend.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

Googling “charismatic” can bring up some pretty interesting reading:

A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

Errors of Charismatics

The Pentecostalism Controversy

 

[CatholicSamurai]

Wow, everything has been answered so well… let my just add that in the Eastern churches, they define being charismatic as having the presence of the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then all Catholics are charismatic upon the time of confirmation. Don’t forget about the natural seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that come with confirmation.

 

[RoyJr]

Googling “charismatic” can bring up some pretty interesting reading:

A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

Errors of Charismatics

The Pentecostalism Controversy

Hi John,
I was only able to read a few sentences of the first two links & I had to stop because it has been said many, many times before and I find it sad that people that call themselves “catholic” (THE Church founded by Christ Jesus & whose birthday IS the day of Pentecost), would be so quick to dismiss the “charismatic renewal” as some sort of “protestant infilltration” into the Catholic Church. The author of ‘A closer look…’ states "This article proposes that a movement that has swept Protestantism over the past ninety odd years, and has made significant inroads into the Catholic Church throughout the last twenty-five, is deserving of more serious scrutiny by those who have fostered its growth and those responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Catholic Faith."
The “Charismatic Movement” began in the Catholic Church ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST with the 12 Apostles & our mother Mary in the upper room. Anyone who would deny that denies the Word of God. Acts 2. Read it.
This event took place almost 2000 years ago & the Holy Spirit moved the Church out of the upper room (where the Apostles were hiding in fear of the Jewish authorities) & empowered the followers of Jesus to make “bold proclamaitions” about the greatness of God. If only “catholics” today were so “bold”, we would see a drastict change in the world.

Gary Hershman, the author of this “closre look at the charismatic renewal” quotes some “theologians” in this article. Now, I’ve never heard of Mr. Hershman, the theologian he quote or even the catholic culture organization that you took these links from, but I do know what our Catholic church has to say : For the exercise of this apostolate, the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies the people of God through ministry and the sacraments gives the faithful special gifts also (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7), “allotting them to everyone according as He wills” (1 Cor. 12:11) in order that individuals, administering grace to others just as they have received it, may also be “good stewards of the manifold grace of God” (1 Peter 4:10), to build up the whole body in charity (cf. Eph. 4:16). From the acceptance of these charisms, including those which are more elementary, there arise for each believer the right and duty to use them in the Church and in the world for the good of men and the building up of the Church, in the freedom of the Holy Spirit who “breathes where He wills” (John 3:8). This should be done by the laity in communion with their brothers in Christ, especially with their pastors who must make a judgment about the true nature and proper use of these gifts not to extinguish the Spirit but to test all things and hold for what is good (cf. 1 Thess. 5:12,19,21).(4)
DECREE ON THE APOSTOLATE OF THE LAITY
APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965

So, rather than google “charismatic” & be fooled by the first article that tickles my fancy, I would rather rely on the teachings of the Church. I know that there are many anti-Vatican II “catholics” around here, & I pity them, I just hope you are not one of them & will learn to seek the truth in the only source that holds The Truth, Gods’ Church. The One Holy Catholic & Apostalic Church.

As for the errors link, that last sentence of the quotation should be sufficient.

When we speak on the “charismatic movement” or “renewal” in the Church we must understand that it is The Holy Spirit who had this possible. I must agree with Fr. John Corapi who said (as heard on EWTN radio) that IF the Holy Catholic Church had remained charisamtic as it was founded as a Church it never would have needed a renewal, for we would all be working in the charisms of The Holy Spirit.

God Bless.

 

[RoyJr]

Wow, everything has been answered so well… let my just add that in the Eastern churches, they define being charismatic as having the presence of the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then all Catholics are charismatic upon the time of confirmation. Don’t forget about the natural seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that come with confirmation.

All baptized Catholics have been given the Spirit of God to dwell in our hearts. Galatians 4: 6-7 & Romans 8:15-17. The sacrament of Confirmation, as it was “performed” in the early church is not the exactly the same as we have it now. The gifts bestowed on those first converts to Christianity were those gifts mentioned by St. Paul in 1 Corithians 12: faith, wisdom, knowlegde, discerment of spirits, healing, wonderous deeds (miracles), prophecy, tongues, & the interpretation of tongues). The sacrament was changed to impress the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Isaiah 11, which we all should know.

The Church since Vatican II has again allowed the Holy Spirit to freely pour down His charisms, although the sacrament has not changed. This is were the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is needed for all “catholics”, as St. John the Baptist said “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit & with fire” Luke 3:16

Gods’ Kingdom is NOW, the time for a renewed spirit in the Church is NOW.

Only the evil one wants “catholics” to sit on their fat pews & do nothing. Need I remind him/her/it of Matthew 16:18 ***“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” ***

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

… I find it sad that people that call themselves “catholic” (THE Church founded by Christ Jesus & whose birthday IS the day of Pentecost), would be so quick to dismiss the “charismatic renewal” as some sort of “protestant infilltration” into the Catholic Church.

Touchy! That’s the fastest excommunication I’ve had yet (I’ve had many).

OK, here’s my second experiment with google:

I didn’t make any of this up !

 

[St_Gabriel]

I’ve often wondered about the authenticity of these as well. A friend of mine said he went and did faint (he called it slain in the spirit) and said it was very refreshing. My mom said she saw what looked like people speaking in tongues when she went for confession one night and asked the priest who heard her confession what they were doing. He said, he didn’t have a clue!

IMHO if the Holy Spirit is doing something, you can’t resist it anyway.

 

[Pani_Rose]

**Father Cantalamessa, Preacher to the Papal Household: "Baptism in the Spirit is not a human invention; it is a divine invention. It is a renewal of baptism and of the whole of Christian life, of all the sacraments.

For me, it was also a renewal of my religious profession, of my confirmation, and of my priestly ordination. The whole spiritual organism is revived as when wind blows on a flame. Why has the Lord decided to act at this time in such a strong way? We don’t know. It is the grace of a new Pentecost."

Full Interview below:
**
No Need to Fear Charismatic Renewal, Says Papal Household Preacher
Interview With Father Raniero Cantalamessa

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, SEPT. 26, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Baptism in the Spirit makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal a formidable means willed by God to revitalize Christian life, says the preacher of the Papal Household.

Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa made that point Thursday as a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates of Catholic Charismatic Renewal from 73 countries drew to a close.

The delegates had gathered for a spiritual retreat and to reflect on holiness in light of John Paul II’s apostolic letter “Novo Millennio Ineunte.” Father Cantalamessa was the retreat master.

Taking into account Protestant, evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and some members of the Orthodox Church, it is estimated that 600 million Christians have had the charismatic experience.

Given his knowledge of the “charismatic” experience, ZENIT interviewed Father Cantalamessa just before the conclusion of the meeting.

Q: There are those in the Church who think that “baptism in the Spirit” is an invention of the charismatics, and that a name has been given to an experience that is not “catalogued” in the Church. Could you explain, from your own experience, what baptism in the Spirit is?

Father Cantalamessa: Baptism in the Spirit is not a human invention; it is a divine invention. It is a renewal of baptism and of the whole of Christian life, of all the sacraments.

For me, it was also a renewal of my religious profession, of my confirmation, and of my priestly ordination. The whole spiritual organism is revived as when wind blows on a flame. Why has the Lord decided to act at this time in such a strong way? We don’t know. It is the grace of a new Pentecost.

It is not about Charismatic Renewal inventing baptism in the Spirit. In fact, many have received baptism in the Spirit without knowing anything about Charismatic Renewal. It is a grace; it depends on the Holy Spirit. It is a coming of the Holy Spirit which is manifested in repentance of sins, in seeing life in a new way, which reveals Jesus as the living Lord – not as a personage of the past – and the Bible becomes a living word. The fact is, this cannot be explained.

There is a revelation with baptism, because the Lord says that whoever believes will be baptized and saved. We received baptism as children and the Church pronounced our act of faith, but the time comes when we must ratify what happened at baptism. This is an occasion to do so, not as a personal effort, but under the action of the Holy Spirit.

One cannot say that hundreds of millions of people are in error. In his book on the Holy Spirit, Yves Congar, that great theologian who did not belong to Charismatic Renewal, said that, in fact, this experience has changed profoundly the lives of many Christians. And it is a fact. It has changed them and initiated paths of holiness.

Q: How do you carry out your ministry as Papal Household preacher given your experience in Charismatic Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: For me, everything that has happened since 1977 is the fruit of my baptism in the Spirit. I was a university professor. I was dedicated to scientific research in the history of Christian origins. And when I accepted this experience, not without resistance, I then had the call to leave it all and be available for preaching.

My appointment as Papal Household preacher also came after I experienced this “resurrection.” I see it as a great grace. After my religious vocation, Charismatic Renewal has been the most marked grace in my life.

Q: From your point of view, do the members of Charismatic Renewal have a specific vocation in the Church?

Father Cantalamessa: Yes and no. Charismatic Renewal, it must be said and repeated, is not an ecclesial movement. It is a current of grace that is meant to transform the Church – preaching, the liturgy, personal prayer, Christian life.

con’t

 

[Pani_Rose]

So it is not a spirituality as such. The movements have a spirituality and emphasize a particular aspect, for example, charity. First of all, Charismatic Renewal does not have a founder. No one thinks of attributing a founder to Charismatic Renewal because it is something that started in many places in different ways. And it does not have a spirituality; it is Christian life lived in the Spirit.

However, it can be said that as the people who have lived this experience are, socially, a reality – they are people who do certain gestures, pray in a certain way – then a social reality can be identified whose role is simply to be available so that others can have the same experience, and then disappear.

Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens, who was the great protector and supporter of Charismatic Renewal in its beginnings, said that the final destiny of Charismatic Renewal might be to disappear when this current of grace has spread throughout the Church.

Q: As you are about to finish preaching a retreat attended by 1,000 Charismatic delegates from all over the world, what message would you like to give believers who do not know the Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.

However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.

There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.

Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

The following account of the Mass prayed at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome was printed in the “International Catholic Priests Association” published in England. The report was by its contributor, Simon Keegan.

*"Pentecostals’ or ‘Charismatics’ led by the Belgian Cardinal Leo Suenans, came for a Eucharistic celebration. In the vast crowd that filled the Basilica, it was not an uncommon thing to see, what one first thought of as ‘white petals’ being scattered among the congregation. Only when I could push my way nearer, did I realize that they were handfuls of consecrated Hosts that the Cardinal’s ‘hench-priests’ were scattering among the crowd, to speed up Communion. They fell on the shoulders of men, on the dyed and coverless heads of women, and as was inevitable, not a few on the ground, and were trampled upon by the crowd.

I spoke to a lady standing near me, who was gobbling a number of them together (the consecrated Hosts). I asked her where she came from and was she a Catholic? She came from Egypt, she replied, and in fact had no religious persuasion, but her feelings are in favor of Mohamedism, to which her family belonged, but her fiancée was an Anglican, and she found Pentecostalism Quite exciting."*

This, and other exciting news at: Charismatics in the Catholic Church