Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[Dorothy_Vining]

Hi, johnn -

Confirmation is a SACRAMENT which invites the Holy Spirit into our hearts and souls ALL the days of our lives.

No “meetings” can eclipse the Sacrament. I believe anyone of us who have received the sacrament of Confirmation is a possible prophet or missionary if the Holy Spirit so chooses.

I’ll accept that. But hear this. I know a priest who was assigned to a Catholic school to teach catechism. However, he soon came to realize that those kids --baptized, confirmed, often going to holy communion – needed to be evangelized rather than catechized. No way had these gifts been accepted at any deep level. They would have said they were Catholics but they had not made a deep commitment of any sort. Some of the boys and girls were sleeping together, etc. etc.

How many times have I said:
Do you want to do the will of the Father?
Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

Why has NO ONE written to say they did these things long ago? Even born-Catholics need to do these things at some time in order to be called committed Catholics. The rest are just going through the motions while God is waiting, waiting, waiting for us to give our hearts to him.

“Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful. Kindle in us the fire of your love.”

These can be rote words or a heart-felt prayer.
Try the latter.

 

[TOP]

Signs and Rites of Confirmation CCC:1296 Christ himself declared that he was marked with his Father’s seal. 108 Christians are also marked with a seal: “It is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has commissioned us; he has put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.” 109 This seal of the Holy Spirit marks our total belonging to Christ, our enrollment in his service for ever, as well as the promise of divine protection in the great eschatological trial. 110

“Our TOTAL belonging to Christ”

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

---

Signs and Rites of Confirmation CCC:1296 Christ himself declared that he was marked with his Father’s seal. 108 Christians are also marked with a seal: “It is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has commissioned us; he has put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.” 109 This seal of the Holy Spirit marks our total belonging to Christ, our enrollment in his service for ever, as well as the promise of divine protection in the great eschatological trial. 110

Are you telling me that all these baptized, confirmed and sealed Catholics are heaven-bound in spite of themselves? That they can’t be hell-bent if they want to? Or do they, themselves, actually have to do some choosing along the way?

 

[TOP]

Are you telling me that all these baptized, confirmed and sealed Catholics are heaven-bound in spite of themselves? That they can’t be hell-bent if they want to? Or do they, themselves, actually have to do some choosing along the way?

Why would you assume that from a CCC quote? But you undermine my confirmation because I have not publicly said “I accept Jesus as my Lord and savior” on this forum. Is this a members only club and that is the secret password? I take offense at that and the suggesting that salvation comes from this profession you have come up with that is aptly covered in the profession of faith at every Mass. If these people where to stay in communion with the Church that provides a way of salvation , they would be “heaven-bound”. Is the Church lacking in this area to you? Tim

 

[Mary_ann_R]

So, you’d like to light a fire under us quiet, still Catholics? I’ve come out. I’ve seen. I also took the liberty of studying some relationships among Protestants, Catholics, and other less welcome congregants.

**Today there is a very large number of baptized people who for the most part have not formally renounced their Baptism, but who are entirely indifferent to it… The resistance of this group takes the form of inertia and the slightly hostile attitude of the person who feels that he is one of the family, who claims to know it all and to have tried it all, and who no longer believe it. **

**Pope Paul VI - On Evangelization in the Modern World - #56
** EVANGELII NUNTIANDI

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6evan.htm

Over the ages, our Church has proclaimed and continues to proclaim the personal responsibility of all human beings to choose for themselves the plan of God-or the gifts so lavishly given cannot be experienced. The basic Sacraments of initiation into our faith have been given to all of us, and yet without mature adult understanding and acceptance, we do not experience the full benefit of all that God has provided for us in the facts of these Sacraments. Let us not continue in our ignorance that is so costly to our everyday life of grace in Jesus Christ, but come to Him from whom all blessings flow-Jesus, the Christ, the Anointed of God, our Savior, our Redeemer, and humbly ask Him to immerse us into His Spirit of Holiness.

taken from: CCC website
What is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
by Pat Mullins

ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Mullins/Mullins_002.html

Read also:
#12
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

lumen gentium

B]JP2 - Please produce some Papal documents to back your argument. The Pope gives his blessing and is the highest authority in the Church.

 

[hope_7]

QUOTE=Dorothy Vining;

How many times have I said:
Do you want to do the will of the Father?
Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

Why has NO ONE written to say they did these things long ago? Even born-Catholics need to do these things at some time in order to be called committed Catholics. The rest are just going through the motions while God is waiting, waiting, waiting for us to give our hearts to him.

Hello Dorothy
I just read your message here and thought I would reply.
On August 19 1974 at 3 am I recieved Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. All my sins were forgiven and washed away by His blood. I became a new person at that moment. My whole life changed at that point just like it says in 2nd Corenthians 5:17. For the first time in my life I had peace. The peace that passes all understanding. Like in Philipians 4:7 and Ephesians 2:17 I knew that everything was alright between God and i. I hope that this answers your question.

   A year later I was baptised in the Holy Ghost and I speak in tongues as He gives the utterance. It was the second saturday in September 1975. This was life changing as well. One is never the same after thease things take place within you, and it will show on the outside as well. Thease are very good things, and I believe God wills this for all people who are willing to come to know Him through faith in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son.

   There are alot of things that people have said about being baptised in the Holy Spirit, the speaking with tongues, and His gifts, on this thread. I think it would be wise to look at God,s Holy Word and see what it has to say.  What do you think? Has anyone ever read and studied, and perhaps prayed to recieve thease things that the holy scriptures have talked about on this subject?

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

A year later I was baptised in the Holy Ghost and I speak in tongues as He gives the utterance. It was the second saturday in September 1975. This was life changing as well. One is never the same after thease things take place within you, and it will show on the outside as well. Thease are very good things, and I believe God wills this for all people who are willing to come to know Him through faith in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son.

   There are alot of things that people have said about being baptised in the Holy Spirit, the speaking with tongues, and His gifts, on this thread. I think it would be wise to look at God,s Holy Word and see what it has to say.

“some of the signs of possession include: speaking in tongues,…”

The Real Exorcist
Mary ann R:

Please produce some Papal documents to back your argument. The Pope gives his blessing and is the highest authority in the Church.

Putting the bible and papal encyclicals into the hands of semi-literates has never built up Christ’s Church. Fundamentalists quote this stuff all the time, thinking it proves their point.

Luke 22
31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

You can’t fool all of the people, all of the time.

 

[Mary_ann_R]

“some of the signs of possession include: speaking in tongues,…”

The Real Exorcist

Putting the bible and papal encyclicals into the hands of semi-literates has never built up Christ’s Church. Fundamentalists quote this stuff all the time, thinking it proves their point.

Luke 22
31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

You can’t fool all of the people, all of the time.

Sticks and stones…where’s the Papal documents?

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulTwoToo
“some of the signs of possession include: speaking in tongues,…”

Of course. Satan tries to mimic the good things of God. That does not make tongues bad. I won’t go into the scriptural references for the gift of tongues again. You know them and choose to ignore them.

Satan also does not want us trying to do the will of God. He does not want us to call on Jesus as Lord. He doesn’t want us filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is why is makes me very sad when Catholics balk at saying from the heart “Thy will be done,” “Jesus is my Lord”, and “Come, Holy Spirit, fill me with your fire.”

Please explain to me why this is.

 

[TOP]

Of course. Satan tries to mimic the good things of God. That does not make tongues bad. I won’t go into the scriptural references for the gift of tongues again. You know them and choose to ignore them.

Satan also does not want us trying to do the will of God. He does not want us to call on Jesus as Lord. He doesn’t want us filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is why is makes me very sad when Catholics balk at saying from the heart “Thy will be done,” “Jesus is my Lord”, and “Come, Holy Spirit, fill me with your fire.”

Please explain to me why this is.

You don’t know my heart or what it has said to the Lord. You are fastly turning me off of this charismatic movement. You also don’t know my experience’s with the Spirit or the gifts I am discerning with PROPER direction. You sound elitest and separatist. I balk at YOU. Tim

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

I’m sorry, TOP. My post was addressed to JohnPaul II2, who wants to attribute the gift of tongues to Satan, not to you.

If you did not read the rest of the thread you would not know where I am coming from. Please feel free to comment on anything I said (to JPII2) with what is in your heart.

 

[TOP]

Some Q&A.
THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH

1. What are the sacraments and which are they?

1113-1131

The sacraments, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, are efficacious signs of grace perceptible to the senses . Through them divine life is bestowed upon us. There are seven sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.

1. What is the relationship of the sacraments to Christ?

1114-1116

The mysteries of Christ’s life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church.
“What was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries.” (Saint Leo the Great)

1. What is the link between the sacraments and the Church?

1117-1119

Christ has entrusted the sacraments to his Church. They are the sacraments “of the Church” in a twofold sense: they are “from her” insofar as they are actions of the Church which is the sacrament of Christ’s action; and they are “for her” in as much as they build up the Church.

1. What is the sacramental character?

1121

It is a spiritual “seal” bestowed by the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders. It is a promise and guarantee of divine protection. By virtue of this seal the Christian is configured to Christ, participates in a variety of ways in his priesthood and takes his part in the Church according to different states and functions. He is, therefore, set apart for divine worship and the service of the Church. Because this character is indelible the sacraments that impress it on the soul are received only once in life.

1. What is the relationship between the sacraments and faith?

1122-1126
1133

The sacraments not only presuppose faith but with words and ritual elements they nourish, strengthen, and express it. By celebrating the sacraments, the Church professes the faith that comes from the apostles. This explains the origin of the ancient saying, “lex orandi, lex credendi,” that is, the Church believes as she prays.

1. Why are the sacraments efficacious?

1127-1128
1131

The sacraments are efficacious ex opere operato (“by the very fact that the sacramental action is performed”) because it is Christ who acts in the sacraments and communicates the grace they signify. The efficacy of the sacraments does not depend upon the personal holiness of the minister. However, the fruits of the sacraments do depend on the dispositions of the one who receives them.

1. For what reason are the sacraments necessary for salvation?

1129

For believers in Christ the sacraments, even if they are not all given to each of the faithful, are necessary for salvation because they confer sacramental grace, forgiveness of sins, adoption as children of God, conformation to Christ the Lord and membership in the Church. The Holy Spirit heals and transforms those who receive the sacraments.
231. What is sacramental grace?

1129, 1131
1134, 2003

Sacramental grace is the grace of the Holy Spirit which is given by Christ and is proper to each sacrament. This grace helps the faithful in their journey toward holiness and so assists the Church as well to grow in charity and in her witness to the world.

1. What is the relationship between the sacraments and everlasting life?

1130

In the sacraments the Church already receives a foretaste of eternal life, while “awaiting in blessed hope, the appearing in glory of our great God and saviour Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:13).

 

[TOP]

I’m sorry, TOP. My post was addressed to JohnPaul II2, who wants to attribute the gift of tongues to Satan, not to you.

If you did not read the rest of the thread you would not know where I am coming from. Please feel free to comment on anything I said (to JPII2) with what is in your heart.

I should not have been harsh and I apologise. I see a threat of a splinter group in the movement if not directed properly via pride in receiving gifts. I think obedience to the basics of Catholic faith should take precedence. If is was not for my obedience to the sacraments and my vows to the Lord, I would probably be a JW now, as they struck when I was being bombarded with unknowns and lack of discernment. There is a place in the Church for charism’s. But declaring a movement seems in protest of what is sound and firm. Most people want to be special in some way, if even to themselves. This is a satanic lure and I approach anything that takes away from what Christ has institued with extreme caution, for the building of self. I have not witnessed the good fruits of charismatic’s to be able to discern there place for the building up of the Church yet. But the sacraments are a sound guide for an unruly generation that doesn’t need discourse within it’s own Church. So I stand by watching ready to defend what is proven and sound. Tim

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

This is why is makes me very sad when Catholics balk at saying from the heart “Thy will be done,” “Jesus is my Lord”, and “Come, Holy Spirit, fill me with your fire.”

Jeremias 17
9 The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it? 10 I am the Lord who search the heart and prove the reins: who give to every one according to his way, and according to the fruit of his devices.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

The Holy Spirit as “butler in the sky” is a delusion.

 

[hope_7]

John Two Too
I have read both the books by Gabrial Amorth that you mentioned and one called Hostage to the Devel by Malichi Martan. I thought they were very good. You are right when saying one of the signs of possesion can include speaking in tongues. I know that satan copies many of the things that God does so that he can decieve us. I would be careful attributing the tounges that I am speaking of to the devil. I can understand your caution. The reason that I think scripture is so important is that it guides us and can separate what is false and true. It reveales Jesus to us. It also reveals our heart and where we stand with God if we will just read it and be open to it. One of the things that I do is to pray the scriptures as I am reading them. When a verse stands out to me, like for example when God would tell Abraham to do something. I would notice how quick that abraham obeyed the Lord. I saw this again and again as I read through Genesis. This speaks to me. I am not always as quick to obey. so I bring this to the Lord and pray to be more like Abraham. The scriptures have a way of showing to me my poverty and how much I need Jesus. I also find comfort and hope in them. They also show to me my sin and God,s way of clensing. Reading the scriptures is how I found out about the Holy Spirit. I was reading in Acts and I saw several places where people recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When I saw this I said to the Lord that I wanted this too, and He granted my request. Did you know that where this baptism of the Holy Spirit is first mentioned in Acts, that not only were the apostles there, but there were about 120 men and women there in all. Even the virgin Mary the mother of our Lord was there and it says they all recieved the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Isnt that wonderful that God would let us see thease things in His word. To me His word is most precious. One of the things that I really like during mass is the reading of God,s holy word. It is so powerful .

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

Reading the scriptures is how I found out about the Holy Spirit. I was reading in Acts and I saw several places where people recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I first found out about the Holy Spirit in first grade catechism class, taught by Ursuline teaching nuns. This was expanded upon by our parish priest and Redemptorist seminarians who came for frequent visits. By the time I was confirmed, my faith was sufficiently formed to open me to a powerful sacramental infilling of the Holy Spirit that shows up the Pentecostal and Charismatic “annointings” for the cheap imitations that they are. I lived in a Protestant divinity school for two years and it was obvious to me that the students didn’t have anything like the faith formation that I had as a kid. Sure they could quote scripture, but they clearly lacked any understanding of what it meant. When I finally picked up a Bible, it was a whole Bible, not missing books that were doctrinaly embarassing to Protestant innovators. I read all of it, from beginning to end, in the light of the fully formed faith I had received from my Church. You may be assured that I know exactly what I’m doing when I quote it to you. You may also want to become acquainted with the Magisterium – the teaching authority of the Holy Catholic Church. You see, it gives us a little advantage, as Francis Beckwith and Scott Hann could explain to you.

It is also not my habit to make statements that are merely speculation. Tell me that this man does not understand what he’s saying:

I was part of the charismatic movement for a while when I was a Protestant. I spoke in tongues. In my case I later realized that my “tongues” were from Satan and not from God. I renounced them and have never spoken in “tongues” since.

Although I have not formally been a “member” of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I have been closely associated with it. Both the pastor and deacon who brought me into the Church are part of the Renewal and most of the founding members of the Legion of St. Michael are part of the Renewal. I have also attending Charismatic meetings of the Catholic Renewal. Thus my experience is not mere arm-chair or academition.

On the issues of Tongues, Tongues is the least of the gifts and should not be coveted in any way. Tongues is also the EASIEST gift for Satan to counterfeit. Everyone and their cat speaks in tongues – witches, shamans, witch-doctors, voodoo priests, satanist, occultist, etc.

Anyone speaking in tongues needs to have them tested. And I am sorry, but FEELING good about one’s tongues, or thinking that positive fruits have come from one’s tongues, is NOT test enough.

Read the rest of it here, and spend some time exploring the forum:

charismatic renewal reviewal

[SIGN1]I know the smell of sulphur[/SIGN1]

 

[hope_7]

Dear John
I read the rest of of the article that you recommended. I can see why you would be so against what you see as the charismatic movement in light of the teaching that you have had. I would not try to convince you to join it. One thing that I find hard to understand is what I find not only in the article that you referred me to but also in your own writing. There is almost an anger or hatred of protestants with a total discounting of their faith in God. Why is this?

There have been many in protestant circles that have denounced the penticostal and the charismatic renewal as well. I realise that they have many faults. But there have been many good things that have come because of what God has done through this

I am surprised that so many have denounced being baptised in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and call it a work of the devil ,but at the same time I am not, because they said Jesus had a devil when he was in fact casting out devils. Many times when something cannot be explained or it disrupts our theology we blame satan when in fact it is our own theology that is not correct. I have to choose weather I believe the scriptures or what someone else has said. Many times I have had to change my own thinking because it dosent line up with God,s word.

I would love to meet up with charismatic catholics that really are in love with the Lord that have recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that speak in other tongues as the spirit gives the utterance and that move in the gifts of the spirit. I would also like to meet with those who are true mystics in the church as well.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

There is almost an anger or hatred of protestants with a total discounting of their faith in God. Why is this?

[SIGN]Love the sinner, hate the sin[/SIGN]

Apocalypse 2
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaites, which I also hate.

Hint – Nicolaites was a heretic.

If one loves the Truth, Who is Christ, then what does this say:

Matthew 6
24 No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Ephesians 4
26 Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger. 27 Give not place to the devil.

Does that help your memory?

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

What is wrong with this picture is that some priests are deperately in need of conversion–they aren’t even Christian, much less Catholic. … They really need a little fire in their belly.

Most priests have a different concept of fire than you Charismatics have: Word on Fire

Guess I’m one of those cheerfully obnoxious ones.

 

[hope_7]

Dear John paul two too

It is not about charismatics or catholics as being differant religions or because catholics are right and charismatics are wrong. It is about relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the blessings He has for us and empowering us to be witnesses unto Him. This is about those who know Him, His bride , His body the church. The word chrisma means gifts. I am speaking of the nine gifts of the spirit as listed in1 Corenthians 12.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not water baptism though it can happen then. Neither does the new birth experiance (called by the protestant church being saved) happen because you are baptised in water as an infant or as an adult or confirmed by a priest. If one has never repented of his sins and does not come to the foot of the cross at Jesus feet but tries to go through some other means he or she cannot know or even begin to grasp what the protestants are talking about and I am talking about protestants like penticostal and charismatics and on the matter of salvation like the baptists Billy Graham is one who preaches a fine salvation message. Charles Stanley is a baptist preacher who is very good as well. There are many good penticostal preachers out there as well.
I am sure that there are catholic priests out there too
The unique thing about the charismatic renewal is that God brought to all groups of christians His promise of the Holy Spirit The gifts along with the fruits are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is not about weather one is catholic or protestant it is about God and his bride the church.

I have read some of the pieces that you referred me to and have found that even though thease men are of religous orders they do not even know the scriptures about the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. I find this dissapointing and a shame.
If our christian experiance does not line up with God,s word then we may have something else that is not christian.
I think that you would be better able to understand what we are saying if you would just read about thease things in scripture and just ask God to reaveal to you what the baptism in the Holy Spirit really is and the gifts of the Spirit as well as salvation.

So far you have said that this is of the devil. How can you who adores Mary the mother of God bypass the fact that she was in that room with the apostles, especially the apostle Peter. If you can, take some time to read this prayerfully and in humility before God. Please read Acts 1:4-14 and Acts 2:1-12 There were about 120 people in that room and the scriptures say they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues as the spirit gave utterance. This includes Mary the mother of Jesus and the apostle Peter

Try not to get so hung up on what you see as the penticostal or charismatic movenent or what is being said about it. Read the scriptures for yourself. Be thorough dont say I read this some time ago. Dont even take me at my word.

  Look for yourself and ask God to show you in Jesus name. Ask for Mary to pray  for you as well. I think that you  will be glad that you did. Dont stop there, but search out where this is talked about in other places in God,s word as well. 
    These blessings of God are for you.

Jesus purchased them for you with His own blood because He loves you.