Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[fierysword1920]

Can you supply any criticism of Catholic Charismatic Renewal by the Vatican?

I say as a good Catholic that if the Pope or Popes says it is ok, then so be it, but I think it is ok only to a certain degree. This is a movement intended I believe to be personal and not neccesarily interpersonal. Look back at Rick’s site and you will see examples of heresy that sprouted from charismatic movements. They are not all bad, but some are totally evil and that is why a person needs to really investigate this movement and who is behind it.

 

[fierysword1920]

This doesn’t seem to correspond with the tidbits I’ve heard and read. Are you saying that there is no common (not universal, but common) “style” of CCR Mass? That if one looked at 1000 CCR Masses one would not be able to distinguish them from 1000 non-CCR Masses? If that is the case then people have been spreading misinformation.

All mass should be the same and if they are not it heresy. The Catholic church gets its name from the Greek Katholikos, which means universal, so all mass should be the same now as 1800 years ago, if it is not then something is wrong in a lot of ways, witha lot of people.

 

[steve99]

This doesn’t seem to correspond with the tidbits I’ve heard and read. Are you saying that there is no common (not universal, but common) “style” of CCR Mass? That if one looked at 1000 CCR Masses one would not be able to distinguish them from 1000 non-CCR Masses? If that is the case then people have been spreading misinformation.

Depends what you mean by style.The hymns tend to be more lively, people will often raise their hands, but the Mass is the same - liturgically correct & reverent.

If you mean if people went to the average Sunday Mass in many parishes with a lot of grey heads and old ladies saying the rosary at the back, and compared it to some CCR Masses with a range of ages and people singing joyfully then I guess they could tell the difference.

 

[VociMike]

All mass should be the same and if they are not it heresy. The Catholic church gets its name from the Greek Katholikos, which means universal, so all mass should be the same now as 1800 years ago, if it is not then something is wrong in a lot of ways, witha lot of people.

I’m asking about “styles” of Masses. For example, using the Novus Ordo Missal there can be “Mariachi Masses”, “Polka Masses”, Latin Masses with Gregorian Chant, Masses with no music, LifeTeen Masses, etc, etc. I am asking if there is a distinguishable style common to (not universal, but common to) CCR Masses. And if there is, how did that style come about?

 

[VociMike]

Depends what you mean by style.The hymns tend to be more lively, people will often raise their hands, but the Mass is the same - liturgically correct & reverent.

If you mean if people went to the average Sunday Mass in many parishes with a lot of grey heads and old ladies saying the rosary at the back, and compared it to some CCR Masses with a range of ages and people singing joyfully then I guess they could tell the difference.

OK, lively hymns and hands often raised.

What are some examples of “lively” hymns? I ask because I really have no idea what those might be. Is there a typical source for music used in a CCR Mass?

 

[mercygate]

I say as a good Catholic that if the Pope or Popes says it is ok, then so be it, but I think it is ok only to a certain degree. This is a movement intended I believe to be personal and not neccesarily interpersonal. Look back at Rick’s site and you will see examples of heresy that sprouted from charismatic movements. They are not all bad, but some are totally evil and that is why a person needs to really investigate this movement and who is behind it.

Heresy sprouts out of the cracks in the sidewalk. Heresy has sprung from ultra-Katholic movements also – think of that group promoting the notion that Mary is God.

 

[fierysword1920]

Heresy sprouts out of the cracks in the sidewalk. Heresy has sprung from ultra-Katholic movements also – think of that group promoting the notion that Mary is God.

Oh I know, thats for sure. I was speaking just in this particular context is all. The guy from unitypublishing.com says that most people assume that because he is a apologist that he defends the faith from outside forces when in reality he defends it from the evil that tries to undo the Church from within.

 

[monokorobo]

steve99,

Oh, and what is “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”? I thought the Church taught that there is only one Baptism.

ya, i agree, Church taught that there is only one Baptism.
Does The Holy Spirit can be outpouring anytime according to our desire?

And why do Charismatic prayer groups always sing Protestant songs in their praise or worship. Does The Catholic Church have not good song? And i almost find in their prayer groups, they sing very loud, full power, even jumped? Do this symptoms is original from Catholic Church?

Thank you.

 

[fierysword1920]

I agree mike. The Catholic Church is actually supposed to be a very solemn deal. We are there to witness the sacrificial mass of Christ and not jump up and down and sing loudly and wave our hands around. That is not from our Church Fathers. This is why I approach the Charismatic movement with great caution and I believe that it will prove out to be the falsehood I believe that it is.

ya, i agree, Church taught that there is only one Baptism.
Does The Holy Spirit can be outpouring anytime according to our desire?

And why do Charismatic prayer groups always sing Protestant songs in their praise or worship. Does The Catholic Church have not good song? And i almost find in their prayer groups, they sing very loud, full power, even jumped? Do this symptoms is original from Catholic Church?

Thank you.

 

[jam070406]

Pope John Paul II in 1979

“This is my first meeting with you Catholic Charismatics…… I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his [the Holy Spirit] action. The world is in much need of this action of the Holy Spirit and it needs instruments for this action… I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the Church, in this spiritual renewal of the Church.”

In 1998 Pope John Paul II called all the lay movements, including the Charismatic Renewal to come and celebrate the vigil of Pentecost with him in St. Peters. Ijn his speech to them he said
“The institutional and the charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s people. It is to this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.”

Later in the same speech he said
“Today I would like to cry out to all of you gathered in St. Peter’s Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit necer ceases to bestow on us!.

JPII also kissed a Koran, was at a Hindu ceremony, a Jewish service, etc. etc.
Why am I not suprised he would speak highly of this movement.
Is there anything he didn’t embrace in his overzealous ecumenism?
Sorry but I’m still leary of this movement.
babbling in tongues, seeking signs and wonders from the spirit, acting out in emotion, etc. it seems to contradict scripture and tradition.

 

[rtconstant]

Well, I’m not going to make pre-judgements on those who are in CCR. So long as they maintain the Faith and stay obediant then They’re OK with me. I will admit that on a strictly personal level that I’m concerned about the movement. As a former evangelical I personally have never witnessed anything positive coming from the Pentecostal or the Charismatic movement. In fact its probably one of the more dangerous movements within Protestant circles.

Now I’m not saying the CCR is related the protestant version, I’m just saying I’m concerned about it. So long as it remains obediant to the See of Peter it should be guarded from the theological madness that has gripped the evangelical version of this movement.

 

[maggie_ann]

I am a Charismatic Catholic and proud of it! As I have perused these meanderings (I admit I did not read each and every one) several stunning misconceptions leapt out at me! First of all, when you are “slain in the spirit” you don’t “faint”! You still have all of your faculties and are completely aware of what is going on around you. But you receive, by the grace of God, such an overwhelming sense of peace and closeness to God that many people who are open to the Lord and His Holy Spirit at this time appear to be “slain”. I have only been charismatic for a little over 1 year, but I can tell you that it has changed my life! I always felt like something was missing but now I have such an overwhelming love for God and our Catholic Church that I can’t get enough! If I could attend Mass every day, I would. (Can you really believe this is from the evil one?!!) As for tongues, this is another gift of the Holy SPirit that you are in complete control of. I did not receive this gift right away as I will admit I was a little afraid and intimidated, but when I did I was praying to God with my Bible on my lap! A very holy person explained it this way: When our words are inadequate, the Spirit takes over and the praise for our God flows unhindered! Do I know what I am saying? No way! Do I care? No, I am just happy that I can love and worship God at this new level. We have a Charismatic Prayer Group that is led by our parish priest - a very dedicated man of God who got the call late in life. He has taught this parish so much, especially about our beloved Catholic faith, which let’s face it has been badly taught for far too many years. Before we pray in tongues at our prayer group, we always lead into it with praise and worship of God and then those who are led into tongues proceed to that, and those that do not want to worship that way, do not. They just continue praising God in our own tongue! It is true, if all Catholics would be more open to these gifts (which are meant to build up the CHURCH, NOT individuals), I believe there would be no stopping us! EVERYONE would want to be Catholic, after all, we are Christ’s Church and who would want to miss out on receiving Christ in the Holy Eucharist!?! And by the way, do you know that “baptism in the Spirit” is mentioned in each and every Gospel? And that Pope John XXIII at the start of VAtican 2 actually asked God to “Renew Your wonders in this our day, as by a new Pentecost”? Perhaps he had an idea of the storms ahead, which we continue to fight. As Fr. Corapi says there is indeed a battle waging - the forces of evil against the forces of good. “My Mama wears combat boots!” Praise the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mother Mary, please pray for us.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread moved and merged because this is an ongoing thread on this topic.
MF

 

[steve99]

And why do Charismatic prayer groups always sing Protestant songs in their praise or worship. Does The Catholic Church have not good song? And i almost find in their prayer groups, they sing very loud, full power, even jumped? Do this symptoms is original from Catholic Church?

Thank you.

This is the sort of sweeping generalisation that is so prevalent among those who criticize CCR. Yes, there are many songs from protestant sources (perhaps because there aren’t many good catholic songwriters) and what is wrong with that?. But in prayer meetings I have been to there are many songs from Catholic song writers sung too, from older ones such as “Be Thou My Vision” to newer ones by CJM, Emmaeus, Dan Schutte etc.

 

[steve99]

A quote from the unitypublishing site:

The following account of the Mass prayed at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome was printed in the “International Catholic Priests Association” published in England. The report was by its contributor, Simon Keegan.

"Pentecostals’ or ‘Charismatics’ led by the Belgian** Cardinal Leo Suenans**, came for a Eucharistic celebration. In the vast crowd that filled the Basilica, it was not an uncommon thing to see, what one first thought of as ‘white petals’ being scattered among the congregation. Only when I could push my way nearer, did I realize that they were handfuls of consecrated Hosts that the Cardinal’s ‘hench-priests’ were scattering among the crowd, to speed up Communion. They fell on the shoulders of men, on the dyed and coverless heads of women, and as was inevitable, not a few on the ground, and were** trampled upon by the crowd.**

I have spoken to someone who was at that Mass and he says this is a tissue of lies.

 

[steve99]

JPII also kissed a Koran, was at a Hindu ceremony, a Jewish service, etc. etc.
Why am I not suprised he would speak highly of this movement.
Is there anything he didn’t embrace in his overzealous ecumenism?
Sorry but I’m still leary of this movement.
babbling in tongues, seeking signs and wonders from the spirit, acting out in emotion, etc. it seems to contradict scripture and tradition.

Hmm - if the Pope supports CCR - rubbish the Pope. Methinks you would take a different approach if JPII had condemned the CCR.

 

[hope_7]

maggie ann
your testimony is such a blessing to me. I pray to God that there would be many more like you. Thease people on this forum have no idea what it is that they are missing and how much that God wants to do this for them.

 

[mangy_dog]

Father Zlatko Sudac during an interview was asked the following question:

Q: Are you part of the Charismatic Movement?

At the Second Vatican Council, our Church defined the Church as being institutional and charismatic. The problem is that many charismatics live outside the institutional church. We live in a time when our union with our bishops and the pope will be the only guarantee of true and correct actions of both priests and the laity. If God gave me a specific mission, then I don’t have to be concerned about that mission. If God desires it, then He will do it through the Church and the Church’s leaders - He will make it possible that I live my charism for the good of the Church and all peoples. I am just one piece in the mosaic. And it would be better for me not to have been born if I were to draw attention to myself and not to Jesus Christ. Truly this is the only true way to serve God in the next millenium.
God bless Father Sudac
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[fierysword1920]

This is the sort of sweeping generalisation that is so prevalent among those who criticize CCR. Yes, there are many songs from protestant sources (perhaps because there aren’t many good catholic songwriters) and what is wrong with that?. But in prayer meetings I have been to there are many songs from Catholic song writers sung too, from older ones such as “Be Thou My Vision” to newer ones by CJM, Emmaeus, Dan Schutte etc.

I would say for one reason that the Pope ruled earlier this year that other churches are defective and that there is no salvation outside of the church. I also believe that this would include not having to do with things that are a product of other faiths, because using protestant songs instead of Catholic ones seems to me to be illegal because if this was a credible movement the Holy Spirit who is always with the Church would have revealed something to us and since the Hoy Spirit has not, then it leads me to believe that this is not a Catholic deal and should not be in the Church.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

JPII also kissed a Koran, was at a Hindu ceremony, a Jewish service, etc. etc.
Why am I not suprised he would speak highly of this movement.
Is there anything he didn’t embrace in his overzealous ecumenism?
Sorry but I’m still leary of this movement.
babbling in tongues, seeking signs and wonders from the spirit, acting out in emotion, etc. it seems to contradict scripture and tradition.

A pope can make “mistakes” but NEVER from the Chair of Peter (ex cathedra). Kissing the Koran and attendance at Hindu worship could be no more than a diplomatic gesture. Nothing more than that. It may look a bit unseemly for some of us but NONE of us think the pope “endorsed” those religions.