Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[johnstown_johnn]

Johnstownjohn You are right about what st paul has said,
but you misunderstand what I say. I do not deserve the favors that God has shown to me .Yet because of His son He has made me worthy. I am His son, His bride but it is through no merit of my own.

   I do not need to make a choice between the Mass or the charismatic movement because my salvation is not based on this but is based on faith in Christ Jesus and his blood alone. 

  If I never went to another charismatic meeting or to Mass ever again It would not change the work of grace that God has done in me when He saved me. I would still go to be with Him when I die.

That is a Protestant mindset, my friend. The Mass on Sundays and holydays are an OBLIGATION. The Eucharist IS the requirement for everlasting life.

Jesus said, that whoever eats My Body and drinks My Blood will live forever…he who does not will have no life in him.

I urge you to read the Catechism. If you are a Protestant, then, I can’t help you. If you are a Catholic you are treading in dangerous waters. For a Catholic to renounce the Mass as a requisite for salvation is…heresy.

 

[mercygate]

Johnstownjohn You are right about what st paul has said,
but you misunderstand what I say. I do not deserve the favors that God has shown to me .Yet because of His son He has made me worthy. I am His son, His bride but it is through no merit of my own.

I do not need to make a choice between the Mass or the charismatic movement because my salvation is not based on this but is based on faith in Christ Jesus and his blood alone.

If I never went to another charismatic meeting or to Mass ever again It would not change the work of grace that God has done in me when He saved me. I would still go to be with Him when I die.

Oops. Apologies. I did not see your profile before I posted my earlier post: you are NOT Catholic. Catholic charismatics hodl to Catholic doctrine and teaching – as I summarized in my earlier post.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The charismatic parish in my area is the most orthodox parish I know of. Sure, the hand waving and the music might not be traditional, but their theology is orthodox and they aren’t afraid to speak the truth.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The charismatic parish in my area is the most orthodox parish I know of. Sure, the hand waving and the music might not be traditional, but their theology is orthodox and they aren’t afraid to speak the truth.

I guess we’ve come to the point in time where, “orthodox is in the eye of the beholder.”

I believe a separation is taking place beyond our earthly vision.

 

[maggie_ann]

As a Catholic Charismatic I feel I need to jump in here. To me Mass is not an OBLIGATION (I dislike this terminology) it is a PRIVILEGE and an HONOR! I attend as often as posible - not just because I HAVE to - but because I WANT to because of my love for our Lord Jesus Christ and his Church. I did not always feel this way. Before I was Charismatic, unfortunately Mass to me was an OBLIGATION. I was one of those cafeteria Catholics who decided what I would believe or not and what I would observe or not. Since becoming Charismatic I can say I hold all truths of Christ’s Church in the highest esteem and follow all of them as best as possible, without blatantly disobeying any of them. It was through the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God, that this happened to me. And happen it did, in the blink of an eye. One minute I was lukewarm, searching, always searching for something more. Thinking I had to figure everything out to believe it. The next minute I was on fire with the love of CHrist and wanting to know all that I could about His Church, His Bible, His Life … Now I know what FAITH is. It is a gift of the heart, not the head. Jesus wants us all to be one in Faith, in His One True Church. I hope that Hope7 has not been turned off by our meanderings and that you continue to read and study about Christ’s true Church. (Make sure you seek out reliable sources as many so-called experts are unorthodox. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to start - Catholicism for Dummies is also a great book.) It takes a lot of guts for you to continue on in this site as a Protestant, and I applaud you for that. There is room for all believers in Christ’s Church - charismatic or not. Just don’t sell the charismatics short, because they have much more to contribute than some are willing to admit.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Attending Mass on Sundays and holydays of obligation is just that: an O)BLIGATION.

Third Commandment: To keep holy the Sabbath day…that means attending Mass. Also, Confession and Holy Communion duiring the Eastertime is obligatory.

If these are not seen as obligations by some Catholics but rather “optional” then I fear those souls are on the road to schism.

This is a false notion and if that is a byproduct of charismatic perception then all I can say is I beg you to get out of that group.

 

[mercygate]

Attending Mass on Sundays and holydays of obligation is just that: an O)BLIGATION.

Third Commandment: To keep holy the Sabbath day…that means attending Mass. Also, Confession and Holy Communion duiring the Eastertime is obligatory.

If these are not seen as obligations by some Catholics but rather “optional” then I fear those souls are on the road to schism.

This is a false notion and if that is a byproduct of charismatic perception then all I can say is I beg you to get out of that group.

None of the Catholics on this thread has claimed that it is acceptable to miss Mass on Sundays and HDOs. The only claimant of that was a non-Catholic of the OSAS persuasion.

 

[maggie_ann]

thank you mercygate. Johnstown appears to have misunderstood.

 

[Mary_ann_R]

As a Catholic Charismatic I feel I need to jump in here. **To me Mass is not an OBLIGATION (I dislike this terminology) it is a PRIVILEGE and an HONOR! I **

attend as often as posible - not just because I HAVE to - but because I WANT to because of my love for our Lord Jesus Christ and his Church. I did not always feel this way. Before I was Charismatic, unfortunately Mass to me was an OBLIGATION. I was one of those cafeteria Catholics who decided what I would believe or not and what I would observe or not. Since becoming Charismatic I can say I hold all truths of Christ’s Church in the highest esteem and follow all of them as best as possible, without blatantly disobeying any of them. It was through the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God, that this happened to me. And happen it did, in the blink of an eye. One minute I was lukewarm, searching, always searching for something more. Thinking I had to figure everything out to believe it. The next minute I was on fire with the love of CHrist and wanting to know all that I could about His Church, His Bible, His Life … ** Now I know what FAITH is. It is a gift of the heart, not the head. Jesus wants us all to be one in Faith, in His One True Church. **
Maggie - I was the same way. It wasn’t until I surrendered to the Holy Spirit that I truly fell in love with Jesus. **It is a gift of the ****heart!! **Thank you for your post!

 

[hope_7]

I realise that my answer is not what was expected and is probably not understood.

Well you asked me to choose.

 If I base my salvation on weather I attend mass or not. Then to me I have downgraded the mass. To partake of His body and blood is  very holy to me but to partake of this and to do it in essence to be saved downgrades this and the whole mass to me and to my Lord Jesus. This speaks of the work of Christ Jesus within me. He lives within me. When I attend Mass  when it gets to where everyone partakes of His body and blood. because I am not catholic I am not allowed to. AT this place it is like driveing a sword through my heart because I am excluded from this.

I have attended the penticostal churches and the charismatic churches a good part of my life. I know that a person can be saved and go to heaven and not be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but they are missing out on so much. It saddens me to see so many oppose this because in essance they are opposing themselves. I wish all could be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

My salvation rests on Christ Jesus alone. Ephesians 2:8-13 Romans 10:9-10 may help you to see what I am saying.Faith is baised on God,s word not on what I can do. To believe on Jesus is a casting of oneself upon Him compleately and depending on what He did on the cross. I could never make it on my own no matter what I could do. I could go and be baptised or take communion or confess my sins to a priest and join the church and it still wouldnt be enough I must first have met Jesus and then thease holy things are what they were ment to be, and have their fullest of meaning.

To take His body and blood in mass in order to be saved downgrades it to me to a work that I can bost of. I feel that it would be a terrible insult to God. I would be reling on what I can do instead of what He did for me on the cross when He suffered horribly for my sin, shedding His precious blood for me.

 But to do this because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour is an expression of what has taken place within me and witnesses of His grace within me. It takes on far more meaning then it could have before.  I do because I am .  I no longer do to be.

     What was outward has become inward.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

As a Catholic Charismatic I feel I need to jump in here. To me Mass is not an OBLIGATION (I dislike this terminology) it is a PRIVILEGE and an HONOR! I attend as often as posible - not just because I HAVE to - but because I WANT to because of my love for our Lord Jesus Christ and his Church. I did not always feel this way. Before I was Charismatic, unfortunately Mass to me was an OBLIGATION. I was one of those cafeteria Catholics who decided what I would believe or not and what I would observe or not. Since becoming Charismatic I can say I hold all truths of Christ’s Church in the highest esteem and follow all of them as best as possible, without blatantly disobeying any of them. It was through the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God, that this happened to me. And happen it did, in the blink of an eye. One minute I was lukewarm, searching, always searching for something more. Thinking I had to figure everything out to believe it. The next minute I was on fire with the love of CHrist and wanting to know all that I could about His Church, His Bible, His Life … Now I know what FAITH is. It is a gift of the heart, not the head. Jesus wants us all to be one in Faith, in His One True Church. I hope that Hope7 has not been turned off by our meanderings and that you continue to read and study about Christ’s true Church. (Make sure you seek out reliable sources as many so-called experts are unorthodox. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to start - Catholicism for Dummies is also a great book.) It takes a lot of guts for you to continue on in this site as a Protestant, and I applaud you for that. There is room for all believers in Christ’s Church - charismatic or not. Just don’t sell the charismatics short, because they have much more to contribute than some are willing to admit.

Getting very close to “spiritual false pride.”

 

[maggie_ann]

Because I love Jesus???

 

[mercygate]

I realise that my answer is not what was expected and is probably not understood.

Well you asked me to choose.

If I base my salvation on weather I attend mass or not. Then to me I have downgraded the mass. To partake of His body and blood is very holy to me but to partake of this and to do it in essence to be saved downgrades this and the whole mass to me and to my Lord Jesus. This speaks of the work of Christ Jesus within me. He lives within me. When I attend Mass when it gets to where everyone partakes of His body and blood. because I am not catholic I am not allowed to. AT this place it is like driveing a sword through my heart because I am excluded from this.

If you feel a sword being driven through your heart because you respect the Blessed Sacrament enough not to receive it under the discipline of the Church, then the Holy Spirit has given you a very great grace.

I have attended the penticostal churches and the charismatic churches a good part of my life. I know that a person can be saved and go to heaven and not be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but they are missing out on so much. It saddens me to see so many oppose this because in essance they are opposing themselves. I wish all could be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

My salvation rests on Christ Jesus alone. Ephesians 2:8-13 Romans 10:9-10 may help you to see what I am saying.Faith is baised on God,s word not on what I can do. To believe on Jesus is a casting of oneself upon Him compleately and depending on what He did on the cross. I could never make it on my own no matter what I could do. I could go and be baptised or take communion or confess my sins to a priest and join the church and it still wouldnt be enough I must first have met Jesus and then thease holy things are what they were ment to be, and have their fullest of meaning.

Absolutely! It is the Holy Spirit who works the sacramental grace in us when we do these things, which Christ gave us for our sanctification.

To take His body and blood in mass in order to be saved downgrades it to me to a work that I can bost of. I feel that it would be a terrible insult to God. I would be reling on what I can do instead of what He did for me on the cross when He suffered horribly for my sin, shedding His precious blood for me.

Catholics do not believe we are insulting God by doing as Christ Commanded us to do: "Take and eat . . . "

But to do this because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour is an expression of what has taken place within me and witnesses of His grace within me. It takes on far more meaning then it could have before. I do because I am . I no longer do to be.

What was outward has become inward.

Yes! And then again, goes outward to manifest Christ to the world through our lives of love.

You, my friend, are not far from the Kingdom!

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Because I love Jesus???

Not at all. But charismatic attachments DOES NOT make you MORE of one of His…that is where “spiritual false pride” COULD enter.

We who see the Mass as obligatory follow a Church decree and definition. It does NOT mean that when we attend Mass as an “obligation” we are not as reverent as those who do not agree with the term “obligation.” The Church in its wisdom had called it “obligation” for sound reasons.

Jesus said, “…not everone who says, “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven…but it is those who keep the will of My Father.”

If the word “obligation” takes away from your personal definition of the Mass then, what should it be? Should it be an “OPTION?” Should it be “free will?” BTW, as an “obligation” it is STILL free will.

I get the sense that this charismatic movement puts Jesus and the Holy Spirit in some kind of quasi “competition.” They are ONE…they cannot be separated…ONE in being with the Father.

If I were to never make my Easter duty by receiving Communion during the Eastertime I commit a sin of omission (there is such a thing as “sins of omission,” BTW. If gone unconfessed and should I die with that stain remaining on my soul…Hell is most likely my destination.

If I NEVER go to a charismatic event…my involvement with the Holy Spirit is not decreased because I received Him in the sacrament of Confirmation. The Holy Spirit abides in all of us who received that sacrament. I do not lose my immortal soul by REJECTING the charismatic movement. The Holy Spirit does not withhold from me His Divine blessings because I do NOT believe He is present in those movements. Quite the contrary.

There is NO Greater Presence of the Holy Spirit than the sacrament Confirmation. A sacrament eclipses ALL other forms “presence.”

The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Christ on the Cross…He commanded us to do this (obliged us) in His memory and Holy Communion is “The Bread of Life.” Jesus said, “…he who eats my flesh and drinks My blood , although he die, will live forever.”

There is no “pole vaulting” over these words of salvation.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

We who see the Mass as obligatory follow a Church decree and definition. It does NOT mean that when we attend Mass as an “obligation” we are not as reverent as those who do not agree with the term “obligation.” The Church in its wisdom had called it “obligation” for sound reasons.

Of course it is an obligation, no one was disputing that.

Someone was just making the point that if you go to church only because you feel obliged, there is something wrong. We should be mature enough to get beyond that, to where we WANT to go to church. And I’m not for a second suggesting that you don’t want to go to church. I’m just trying to help clear up what I think is a misunderstanding.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Of course it is an obligation, no one was disputing that.

Someone was just making the point that if you go to church only because you feel obliged, there is something wrong. We should be mature enough to get beyond that, to where we WANT to go to church. And I’m not for a second suggesting that you don’t want to go to church. I’m just trying to help clear up what I think is a misunderstanding.

Attending Mass because it is obligatory is STILL in keeping with the commandment. It still gains graces even if it is “obligatory.”

This idea of “…Mass/obligation” takes away from my zeal…" To me that is a “holier-than-thou” judgment. No one is imbued with that insight…a soul is known to God alone.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong in attending Mass because of "obligation. " It is NO different than a “perfect” or “Imperfect” Act of Contrition. They both petition God for His forgiveness. He is NOT displeased with one or the other.

In life, we all have spiritual recessions…no one is imune to those moments in the spirit. If our zeal for a segment of time is diminished through fatigue or some spiritual letdown and misses the obligatory Mass because of the spiritual lessening…it is STILL a Mortal Sin. Even in our “downtimes” of our spiritual awareness it is the OBLIGATION that commits us to continue on the path. This is one of the reasons OBLIGATION is is part of our human consistancy. The “obligation” is for our very souls.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

In life, we all have spiritual recessions…no one is imune to those moments in the spirit. If our zeal for a segment of time is diminished through fatigue or some spiritual letdown and misses the obligatory Mass because of the spiritual lessening…it is STILL a Mortal Sin. Even in our “downtimes” of our spiritual awareness it is the OBLIGATION that commits us to continue on the path. This is one of the reasons OBLIGATION is is part of our human consistancy.

I agree 100%.
I sometimes don’t want to go to Sunday mass too, and go just because it’s an obligation. Very true.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I agree 100%.
I sometimes don’t want to go to Sunday mass too, and go just because it’s an obligation. Very true.

So we begin to see the point that the Church requires attendance as an obligation. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and He imbues the Church with wisdom beyond our human capabilities.

God knows our human frailties because His Son walked among us.

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

There is NO Greater Presence of the Holy Spirit than the sacrament Confirmation.

I wonder how you can state this categorically. Two examples to consider. First, a quote from Fr. Cantalamessa, preacher to JPII:

Father Cantalamessa: For me, everything that has happened since 1977 is the fruit of my baptism in the Spirit. I was a university professor. I was dedicated to scientific research in the history of Christian origins. And when I accepted this experience, not without resistance, I then had the call to leave it all and be available for preaching.

Secondly, consider Mother Teresa: She was confirmed, professed as a nun at Loreto, but received a “call within a call” on a train ride when she got instructions to leave the convent and start picking up people in the street. We all know the rest of the story.

Could it hurt to pray: “Jesus, if you want to give me more of anything, I’m open to it.”

Innumerable people, confirmed Catholics, report receiving MORE when they are baptized in the Spirit. Would you deny that the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost received MORE? Jesus actually told them to wait and pray and tarry so they would receive power to serve.

 

[mercygate]

I wonder how you can state this categorically. Two examples to consider. First, a quote from Fr. Cantalamessa, preacher to JPII:

Secondly, consider Mother Teresa: She was confirmed, professed as a nun at Loreto, but received a “call within a call” on a train ride when she got instructions to leave the convent and start picking up people in the street. We all know the rest of the story.

Could it hurt to pray: “Jesus, if you want to give me more of anything, I’m open to it.”

Innumerable people, confirmed Catholics, report receiving MORE when they are baptized in the Spirit. Would you deny that the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost received MORE? Jesus actually told them to wait and pray and tarry so they would receive power to serve.

Your statement/experience here and Johnstown’s statement that there is NO greater presence of the Holy Spirit than in Confirmaton are not contradictory.

Our disposition has a lot to do with how “much” we live of our Confirmation. And as we all know, the Holy Spirit comes to us at many times in many ways for His own purposes. Your prayer, “I’m open to it,” can very well be understood as being “open” to what is already there. We often keep the Holy Spirit locked up like a dove in a cage.