Ask about Islam round 3!

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In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Sayings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) .

Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Pride is the rejection of the truth and looking down at people”.

Do not accuse people of sins, because you do not know if they have already repented and God has already forgiven them.
I don’t. This is what God said:-

Matthew 7:3-5

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
 
Should what is written in Islamic Hadiths be believed? :confused:

Planten says this in another thread: “Our bible (Hadith) is as bad as your bible which was written by some sinful (sinner) persons. So there is no need to believe what is being told from the books of Hadith.”

As far as I can tell Quran needs the hadiths to back it up. How can you not believe the hadiths then? From what I have heard from muslims people who do not rely on hadiths are “not real muslims” anyway.
**My reply to your post #790 and that #791 of Booklover is as follows:

It is not easy for you to understand the problem of Hadith because not many Muslims understand it too. We believe in three things i.e.
  1. Quran is absolute and number One in our guidance to the truth.
  2. The Sunnah, i.e. the practice of the holy prophet Muhammad is number two. We can say that as the Quran was revealed, the prophet practically followed it as if he translated the Quran for all of us by his personal example. Every one (in large numbers) saw the prophet do the things (such as ablution i.e. Wudhu or prayer or fasting or Hajj etc). They learnt all from the practice of the prophet and passed it on to others from generation to generation as unbroken chain till this day.
This Sunnah (The practice ot the prophet how he lived) is number two in the life of all Muslims.
  1. The Hadith i.e. the verbal guidance or instructions from the prophet, whatever he said at different times was heard by a few persons and kept in memory. These words were useful and collected by some scholars and compiled into books of Hadith. These books were written about 200 years after the prophet passed away.
So these narrations (Hadith) are also very useful for the Muslims. But they need to be used with care because many people introduced many false traditions / reports in those books of Hadith. There were false reporters. These collections of Hadith have been sorted out and examined and bad ones chucked out. But still some remain.

Now coming to the few laws about Hadith:

a. Any Hadith should not go against the clear teaching of Quran. It should not be against any verse of Quran. Otherwise we have to reject the Hadith or the verse of the Quran.

b. Similarly, any Hadith should not be against any other well known authentic hadith. Other wise we have to reject a good Hadith or we have to doubt the false one.

c. there re many rules about hadith. All cannot ne told here. Another golden rule is that a Hadith cannot take charge of the Quran. The Hadith is to serve the Quran and Sunnah, not to overtake them in any way. We use the Hadith to undertand the Quran. But if any Hadith cannot be made to agree with the Quran even after much effort, then that Hadith has to be rejected. (**
 
Please permit me to enter this discussion- I don’t wish to intrude. I haven’t had the chance to read many of the previous posts, so if I repeat something, please excuse my actions.
Your comments are not an intrusion. I found them very informative and welcome. They are not repetitive.

I am investigating another aspect but am not quite ready to post it.
 
The basic point is this- Allah’s nature can only be understood of his will. However, Allah’s will is what he wills it. Therefore, not only is allah a god of will, but also he will is subject to what he wills it to be.

This is also why love is not mentioned in the prayer. Allah can be loving, just has he can be merficul or spiteful, but only if he wills.
Now, this explains a lot. As you pointed out “God [of the Bible] is Love … That is the nature of God in as concrete human terms as we can understand.” Whereas Allah “can be merciful or spiteful [or hateful], but only if he wills," God cannot do anything that is contrary to his nature, while Allah’s nature is whatever he wants it to be at a particular moment. It sounds like Allah’s nature is brought around to conform to whatever his will is, contrary to God’s will conforming to his nature. Meanwhile, saying that, “God can do anything, therefore God can hate” is an imperfection in reasoning. [Another example of an imperfection in reason is if I say, “Americans never tell the truth.” If I am an American, can the statement be true?]

God’s will follows his nature; Allah’s nature follows his will. Therefore, Allah and God cannot be the same entity – just as I and others here thought.
 
**Please permit me to enter this discussion- I don’t wish to intrude. **I haven’t had the chance to read many of the previous posts, so if I repeat something, please excuse my actions.
Code:
Hello Samaan and welcome 🙂

This is a free for **all **forum and it’s not a one to one debate/discussion.

You may post at any time you feel. Welcome aboard and we look forward to your posts.

👍

Pam
New York
 
Please permit me to enter this discussion- I don’t wish to intrude. I haven’t had the chance to read many of the previous posts, so if I repeat something, please excuse my actions.
  1. Allah’s will
Allah’s will is an excellent point, and you have found a key problem with Islam. The problem with Allah’s will is that Allah himself is defined in terms of his will.

Let me explain- Allah has 99 names, and when Muslims are asked the question “who is Allah,” they will often give one of these names, such as “merciful” (al-rahman- الرحمان), “loving” (al-wadd, I believe- الود), and so forth.

However, the problem with these names is that they are not nouns. They are adjectives. Even in Arabic, these “names” are referred to as sifat, (صفات), which literally means “adjectives.”

Adjectives, as we know, describe a noun, and that noun must refer to something concrete. Since Allah is beyond names, they describe something greater, and that is the internal nature of Allah.

In Christianity, we know from 1 John 4:8 that “Deus Caritas Est”- God is Love (noun). That is the nature of God in as concrete human terms as we can understand.

What about Allah?

Allah’s nature is never known fully, and when it’s spoken about, it’s always spoken in terms of his will:

إِنَّ رَبَّكَ فَعَّالٌ لِّمَا يُرِيدُ ** إِلاَّ مَا شَاء رَبُّكَ** خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالأَرْضُ
عَطَاء غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذ ** إِلاَّ مَا شَاء رَبُّكَ **وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُواْ فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالأَرْضُ

They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. -Quran11:107-108

** إِلاَّ مَا شَاء اللّهُ** قُل لاَّ أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلاَ ضَرًّا
  • Say: “I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth*.” -Koran 7:188
إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ ** اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء** قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ
  • She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth*: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! -Quran 3:47
I could go on, but perhaps the most poignant of these is:

وَيَفْعَلُ اللّهُ مَا يَشَاء يُثَبِّتُ اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِالْقَوْلِ الثَّابِتِ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ وَيُضِلُّ اللّهُ الظَّالِمِينَ

Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth. -Quran 14:27

The basic point is this- Allah’s nature can only be understood of his will. However, Allah’s will is what he wills it. Therefore, not only is allah a god of will, but also he will is subject to what he wills it to be.

This is also why love is not mentioned in the prayer. Allah can be loving, just has he can be merficul or spiteful, but only if he wills.

(by the way, I’m getting used to using the Arabic text on the board. I noticed the Koranic verses were backwards. I will try to fix this in the future.)
Welcome samaan. Excellent post. Please continue with us in the debate. 🙂
 
1. Quran is absolute and number One in our guidance to the truth.

Yes. This is correct. However, it’s impossible to understand the Koran without the hadith.

*2. The Sunnah, i.e. the practice of the holy prophet Muhammad is number two. We can say that as the Quran was revealed, the prophet practically followed it as if he translated the Quran for all of us by his personal example…
  1. The Hadith i.e. the verbal guidance or instructions from the prophet, whatever he said at different times was heard by a few persons …*
Planten, I might like to add that the sunna and the verbal narrations passed down from Mohammed are both transmitted through the hadith. Even major Muslim historians such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, and Ibn Sa’d base their accounts about Mohammed all upon the Hadiths, and before each paragraph begins the full list of hadith narrators is provided. I can see the distinction you’re making, but the sunna and Mohammed’s sayings are both found in the hadith together, many times side-by-side.
  • So these narrations (Hadith) are also very useful for the Muslims. But they need to be used with care because many people introduced many false traditions / reports in those books of Hadith. There were false reporters. These collections of Hadith have been sorted out and examined and bad ones chucked out. But still some remain.*
What you have said is true. However, many times these “differences” are minor, such as the name of a place or a person. Rarely if ever (I cannot even think of an example right now) are Hadiths so different about the same issue that they cause such a conflict.

As you well know, scholars like Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Dawud, and Imam Tirmidhi, and many others spent years collecting and analysing hadiths, sorting out the good from the Bad. I believe it was Bukhari who spent 20 years sorting out his hadith collections, and in the end he chose less than 5% to use, yet his collection is the largest one. Hadiths, most notably Bukhari’s and Muslims, were classified as sahih (صحيح) meaning “perfect, healthy, or whole,” describing the purity of the traditions and their narrators with regard to their validity and accuracy.

Additionally, Mohammed said the following:

لا تكذبو علي فانه من كذب علي فليلج النار
Don’t lie about me, for whoevr lies about me shall verily enter the fire (of hell)
-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Hadith 106 (see also 107 through 111); My translation, but for a parallel English-Arabic is the M.M. Khan translation by Darussalam Publishers (Riyadh, 1997).

If people who tell a lie against Mohammed or Allah, in Mohammed’s own words, go to hell, then why would a faithful Moslem intentionally forge hadith? If he did, he would become an infidel and go to hell when he died. The “false hadith” statement is a classic Islamic argument trying to discredit certain hadith, particularly those which show Mohammed in a negative or unsavory manner. I have no doubt there may have been some forged hadith, but most Moslems, and especially those who compiled these collections, were good, honest, faithful Moslems who wanted to serve Allah and Mohammed and for this reason they spent much time gather these hadith together, sorting them out, writing them down, and teaching them. They had no interest in teaching lies, or what they though were lies. They wanted to teach their followers truth, and for that reason they wrote down what they knew was truth, whether it presents a favorable or negative image of Islam.

As a response, can you name a “false hadith” and explain why it’s a false hadith, giving not only proof but also proper logical reasoning?
  • a. Any Hadith should not go against the clear teaching of Quran. It should not be against any verse of Quran. Otherwise we have to reject the Hadith or the verse of the Quran.*
This is part of the problem. The Koran is explained by the Hadith. As I’m sure you are well aware, the Koran is inseparable from Mohammed’s life- each verse or bloc of verses is connected to a particular event that happened, and after that event happened Mohammed spoke a part of the Koran. The hadiths are the only means we have to explain the circumstances surrounding each passage of the Koran.

An excellent study about this was done by Theodor Noeldeke, in his Geschichte des Qorans. Another likewise study was conducted by the Shia Imam Abdullah Zanjanji in his (I believe the title is) Tafhim-i-Quran. Both of these studies are in their native German and Persian still, but both reach the same conclusions about the ordering of the verses, and for the same reasons- because through the Hadith narratives, we can easily reconstruct Islamic history.

b. Similarly, any Hadith should not be against any other well known authentic hadith. Other wise we have to reject a good Hadith or we have to doubt the false one.

True again. However, often times the differences are very small.

*…Another golden rule is that a Hadith cannot take charge of the Quran. The Hadith is to serve the Quran and Sunnah, not to overtake them in any way. We use the Hadith to undertand the Quran. But if any Hadith cannot be made to agree with the Quran even after much effort, then that Hadith has to be rejected. *

This was already responded to- the Hadith doesn’t run the Koran- the Hadith explains the Koran. Without the hadith, it’s impossible to have a complete understanding of the Koranic text because, regardless of if you believe in Islam or not, the Koran was written during a particular time in history, and there were circumstances that took place at the time when Mohammed spoke a particular verse. You cannot know the circumstances because the Koran doesn’t give them- it only gives what Mohammed (if you’re a Moslem, Allah), said. You need to use the hadith to ascertain the circumstances in order to have a full understanding of the meaning.
 
Hello Samaan and welcome 🙂

This is a free for **all **forum and it’s not a one to one debate/discussion.

You may post at any time you feel. Welcome aboard and we look forward to your posts.

👍

Pam
New York
Thank you.
 
Now, this explains a lot. As you pointed out “God [of the Bible] is Love … That is the nature of God in as concrete human terms as we can understand.” Whereas Allah “can be merciful or spiteful [or hateful], but only if he wills," God cannot do anything that is contrary to his nature, while Allah’s nature is whatever he wants it to be at a particular moment. It sounds like Allah’s nature is brought around to conform to whatever his will is, contrary to God’s will conforming to his nature. Meanwhile, saying that, “God can do anything, therefore God can hate” is an imperfection in reasoning. [Another example of an imperfection in reason is if I say, “Americans never tell the truth.” If I am an American, can the statement be true?]

God’s will follows his nature; Allah’s nature follows his will. Therefore, Allah and God cannot be the same entity – just as I and others here thought.
You understand very well, and your comments express the heart of the problem- Allah can be whatever he wills because he wills it for the sake of will.

This problem has acute ramifications. What about salvation? If allah wills that you are saved, you are saved. If he wills you are damned later, you’re damned. There’s no guarantee- you’re continually subject to Allah’s choices and the consequences of what he chooses.

I liked the way you phrased it- “God’s nature conforming to his will.”

Your point about Allah and the Biblical God being two different dieties is the exact reason why Islam isn’t an “Abrahamic religion.” It cannot be- the God of Abraham in the Bible is so different from the Islamic Allah in their very natures- the heart of whom they are- that they are two separate gods, in spite of Islam’s claims to Biblical figures and peoples as Moslems or in their religious texts.
 
I have always understood the Catholic position on this matter to be that the Muslims strive to worship the One True God, but due to their distorted theology are doing so incorrectly. Does this necessitate a separate God for the Muslims? I figure the conjecture that we are all worshiping the same God is a natural result of monotheism (because there really isn’t more than one God to be worshiped), not a statement as to the “actual” nature of God, which we cannot know but to the extent shown to us through the received tradition of the faith and the holy scriptures that form an integral part of that tradition. The Muslims do not have either of these things (their scripture predates any “Muslim” tradition, as there was no “Islam” prior to Muhammad), so their concept of who or what God is or isn’t is most suspect. But again, a different God…?

Also, how is all of this talk complicated by the Eastern Christian tradition that is not positivist, which would rather then say that “God is not hate” (cf. “God is love”)? This seems more in keeping with the idea that God does not act against His nature (God is not X, because X is against God’s nature). I like that explanation a lot, but it seems to me to be something different than asserting that there is something wrong with the Muslim concept of God because they do not say “God is love”. To say that God is love might, strictly speaking, be unnecessary (not because it is not true, of course, but because it is limiting in a way that “God is not hate” is not).

This is a wonderful discussion, by the way. Thank you so much for stimulating it, Samaan, and welcome to the forums.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Kindness to a Non-Muslim Neighbor

Tips for Interaction By El-Sayed M. Amin

The neighbor holds a special status in Islam…It makes no difference whether the neighbors are Muslim or non-Muslim. ‘A’ishah, the Mother of the Believers, (may Allah be pleased with her) stated that she once asked the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), “O Messenger of Allah! I have two neighbors. To whom shall I send my gifts?” He said, “To the one whose gate is nearer to you.”

If your neighbors are Muslim and relatives, then they have three rights on you: the right of the neighbor, the right of kin, and the right of the co-religionist. If they are non-Muslim and relatives, then two rights are due to them: that of neighbor and kin. And if they are non-Muslims outside of the family, you owe them the right of the neighbor only.

Referring to this, Allah Almighty says what means, (And serve Allah. Ascribe no thing as partner unto Him. (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and into the neighbor who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbor who is not of kin and the fellow traveler…) (An-Nisaa’4:34)

Enough to say that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated in one of his Hadiths that Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) kept exhorting him to treat neighbors kindly to the extent that the Prophet imagined that a neighbor could inherit from his neighbor.

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154235130889&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout
 
I have always understood the Catholic position on this matter to be that the Muslims strive to worship the One True God, but due to their distorted theology are doing so incorrectly. Does this necessitate a separate God for the Muslims? I figure the conjecture that we are all worshiping the same God is a natural result of monotheism (because there really isn’t more than one God to be worshiped), not a statement as to the “actual” nature of God, which we cannot know but to the extent shown to us through the received tradition of the faith and the holy scriptures that form an integral part of that tradition. The Muslims do not have either of these things (their scripture predates any “Muslim” tradition, as there was no “Islam” prior to Muhammad), so their concept of who or what God is or isn’t is most suspect. But again, a different God…?
Excellent points.

I believe you are speaking in reference to Nostra Aetate, in which Pope John XXIII wrote about Islam the following:

*3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
The point which I have striven to make is that the nature of God, which is shared by Christians and Jews alike, versus the nature of Allah, which is uniquely believed by Moslems, are so radically different that they are in effect two different gods. Although Islam teaches that the Islamic understanding of Allah is the same one possessed by Christianity and Judaism, this is not the case. This is because Islam sees itself as the divinely-appointed replacement to Christianity and Judaism, which in Moslem eyes, are merely perverted forms of Islam.

Also, how is all of this talk complicated by the Eastern Christian tradition that is not positivist, which would rather then say that “God is not hate” (cf. “God is love”)? This seems more in keeping with the idea that God does not act against His nature (God is not X, because X is against God’s nature). I like that explanation a lot, but it seems to me to be something different than asserting that there is something wrong with the Muslim concept of God because they do not say “God is love”. To say that God is love might, strictly speaking, be unnecessary (not because it is not true, of course, but because it is limiting in a way that “God is not hate” is not).

Again, you bring up interesting points. I’m interested in the Eastern Christian positions about this myself from a personal view, so I appreicate this.

It’s true that Moslems don’t say that, as Christians say, “God is Love.” However, the problem with Islam is that when it does speak in positive terms about the nature of Allah as a noun, it’s always in connection with Allah’s will acting as will being Allah’s nature.

Additionally, when attributes are used to describe Allah, they are merely adjectives. Sometimes, these adjectives contradict. For instance, Allah is described as “the Humiliator,”(Al-Mudhill- االمذل) “the Afflicter” (Al-Darr الضر), and “the Abaser” (Al-Khafid- الخافض) while at the same time being called “the Honorer” (Al-Mu’izz- المعز), “The Preventer of Harm” (Al-Mani’- المانع) and “the Exhalter” (Al-Rafi’- الرافع). In this case, we have adjectives that describe the same Allah, yet are in conflict with each other.

This is only one of many such examples. The basic idea is that when the Koran and Hadith collections are carefully studies, Allah is shown to be a God whose actions, which flow forth from his nature and often times are contradictory, can be only understood in terms of his will.

*This is a wonderful discussion, by the way. Thank you so much for stimulating it, Samaan, and welcome to the forums.
*

No, thank you for your generosity.
 
Post by Samaan:
Re: Ask about Islam round 3!

** planten:1. Quran is absolute and number One in our guidance to the truth.**

Samaan: Yes. This is correct. However, it’s impossible to understand the Koran without the hadith.

planten: You are wrong. Quran is not a lame or disabled body (book) who cannot walk without the crutches of the Hadith… Quran is independent. It does not need any support from any where. However, hadith is useful in some matters only.

planten: 2. The Sunnah, i.e. the practice of the holy prophet Muhammad is number two. We can say that as the Quran was revealed, the prophet practically followed it as if he translated the Quran for all of us by his personal example…
  1. The Hadith i.e. the verbal guidance or instructions from the prophet, whatever he said at different times was heard by a few persons …
samaan: Planten, I might like to add that the sunna and the verbal narrations passed down from Mohammed are both transmitted through the hadith. Even major Muslim historians such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, and Ibn Sa’d base their accounts about Mohammed all upon the Hadiths, and before each paragraph begins the full list of hadith narrators is provided. I can see the distinction you’re making, but the sunna and Mohammed’s sayings are both found in the hadith together, many times side-by-side.

planten:No. Sunnah is not transmitted through Hadith. I had told you that Sunnah is the practice of the prophet from day one. That was observed by many people and copied and followed through all times till today. The verbal narrations may have been heard by just a few persons and never transmitted at high speed to the multitude.
The Hadith (verbal narrations) were collected about 200 years after the prophet. They were then compiled and just a few copies made out which could not reach all the Muslim people. There was no press.
The Muslims were praying five times a day and observing fast and performing Hajj for the 200 years without any hadith. Can you understand please?

planten: So these narrations (Hadith) are also very useful for the Muslims. But they need to be used with care because many people introduced many false traditions / reports in those books of Hadith. There were false reporters. These collections of Hadith have been sorted out and examined and bad ones chucked out. But still some remain.

samaan: What you have said is true. However, many times these “differences” are minor, such as the name of a place or a person. Rarely if ever (I cannot even think of an example right now) are Hadiths so different about the same issue that they cause such a conflict.

planten: Thanks for admitting some truth in the matter. The differences are not minor. Every sect of Islam has got their own bubdle of Hadith. If differences were minor then there will not be multiple sects in Islam.

samaan: As you well know, scholars like Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Dawud, and Imam Tirmidhi, and many others spent years collecting and analysing hadiths, sorting out the good from the Bad. I believe it was Bukhari who spent 20 years sorting out his hadith collections, and in the end he chose less than 5% to use, yet his collection is the largest one. Hadiths, most notably Bukhari’s and Muslims, were classified as sahih (صحيح) meaning “perfect, healthy, or whole,” describing the purity of the traditions and their narrators with regard to their validity and accuracy.

planten: Yes, Imam Bukhari did that about 200 years after the passing away of the prophet Muhammad. He did it well. It is known that Imam Bukhari new many (100,000) un-authentic Hadith which he did not use. Just imagine the magnitude of the false Hadith that had been in circulation.

There are many rules about the use of Hadith, more than 20 rules. I wrote only two or three rules of importance. Hadith is to serve the Quran and the Sunnah. Hadith cannot take charge of the Quran and Sunnah. Please do not lose sight of the practice of our holy prophet Muhammad which is additional support in our religion.

Hadith comes at the third place in our system, after the Quran and Sunnah. The people who are fond of Hadith, they like to find some place for Hadith in the system so they try to equate hadith with Sunnah. That is not right. The practice (Sunnah) is separate from the verbal traditions conveyed by people. Even though there should be no difference between the verbal sayings of the prophet and his practice. But still the practice takes precedence over any verbal sayings.

My latest post is in dark red. The earlier one is in purple color.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Allah Is Merciful: Why Punishment?

Salwa - United States: Allah will put some people into Hell fire for eternity on the Day of Judgment. How can I explain to a non-Muslim that my God is Merciful when some people will be condemned forever?

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

According to the Qur’an, Allah is “Forgiver of sins, Accepter of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Powerful…” (Ghafir: 3).

It is wrong to accept only some aspect of Allah and ignore or negate some other aspects. When people believe only in the love of Allah and ignore His justice and power they become careless and do whatever they wish.

When people believe in the justice and power of Allah and ignore His love and compassion they become hermits and monks and run away from the world and its enjoyments. Islam teaches us a balanced life and so it teaches us both aspects of Allah’s Being.

…“O human being, what has deceived you about your Lord Most Beneficent? Him Who created you, fashioned you in due proportion, and made you right; and in whatever form He willed for you, He set you. But no, you do deny the Day of Judgment!

Indeed over you are keeping watch the honorable beings; writing down (your deeds). They know what you do. The Righteous will be in Bliss; and the Wicked will be in the Fire, which they will enter on the Day of Judgment.” (Al-Infitar: 6-15) And Allah says, “We wronged them not, but they it was who did the wrong.” (Az-Zukhruf: 76)”

You can also read:

Islam Teaches Us to be Forgiving and Pardoning

Why Does Allah Allow Suffering and Evil in the World?

Allah Almighty knows best.
 
Excellent points.

I believe you are speaking in reference to Nostra Aetate, in which Pope John XXIII wrote about Islam the following:

*3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. *

*Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. *
(Source: Vatican Online: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html)

The point which I have striven to make is that the nature of God, which is shared by Christians and Jews alike, versus the nature of Allah, which is uniquely believed by Moslems, are so radically different that they are in effect two different gods. Although Islam teaches that the Islamic understanding of Allah is the same one possessed by Christianity and Judaism, this is not the case. This is because Islam sees itself as the divinely-appointed replacement to Christianity and Judaism, which in Moslem eyes, are merely perverted forms of Islam.

Also, how is all of this talk complicated by the Eastern Christian tradition that is not positivist, which would rather then say that “God is not hate” (cf. “God is love”)? This seems more in keeping with the idea that God does not act against His nature (God is not X, because X is against God’s nature). I like that explanation a lot, but it seems to me to be something different than asserting that there is something wrong with the Muslim concept of God because they do not say “God is love”. To say that God is love might, strictly speaking, be unnecessary (not because it is not true, of course, but because it is limiting in a way that “God is not hate” is not).

Again, you bring up interesting points. I’m interested in the Eastern Christian positions about this myself from a personal view, so I appreicate this.

It’s true that Moslems don’t say that, as Christians say, “God is Love.” However, the problem with Islam is that when it does speak in positive terms about the nature of Allah as a noun, it’s always in connection with Allah’s will acting as will being Allah’s nature.

Additionally, when attributes are used to describe Allah, they are merely adjectives. Sometimes, these adjectives contradict. For instance, Allah is described as “the Humiliator,”(Al-Mudhill- االمذل) “the Afflicter” (Al-Darr الضر), and “the Abaser” (Al-Khafid- الخافض) while at the same time being called “the Honorer” (Al-Mu’izz- المعز), “The Preventer of Harm” (Al-Mani’- المانع) and “the Exhalter” (Al-Rafi’- الرافع). In this case, we have adjectives that describe the same Allah, yet are in conflict with each other.

This is only one of many such examples. The basic idea is that when the Koran and Hadith collections are carefully studies, Allah is shown to be a God whose actions, which flow forth from his nature and often times are contradictory, can be only understood in terms of his will.

This is a wonderful discussion, by the way. Thank you so much for stimulating it, Samaan, and welcome to the forums.

No, thank you for your generosity.
Samaan, thanks for very thought provoking posts. They’re excellent! Welcome to the forums!

Vickie
 
Excellent points.



The point which I have striven to make is that the nature of God, which is shared by Christians and Jews alike, versus the nature of Allah, which is uniquely believed by Moslems, are so radically different that they are in effect two different gods. Although Islam teaches that the Islamic understanding of Allah is the same one possessed by Christianity and Judaism, this is not the case. This is because Islam sees itself as the divinely-appointed replacement to Christianity and Judaism, which in Moslem eyes, are merely perverted forms of Islam.
Well put!
Also, how is all of this talk complicated by the Eastern Christian tradition that is not positivist, which would rather then say that “God is not hate” (cf. “God is love”)? This seems more in keeping with the idea that God does not act against His nature (God is not X, because X is against God’s nature). I like that explanation a lot, but it seems to me to be something different than asserting that there is something wrong with the Muslim concept of God because they do not say “God is love”. To say that God is love might, strictly speaking, be unnecessary (not because it is not true, of course, but because it is limiting in a way that “God is not hate” is not).
Again, you bring up interesting points. I’m interested in the Eastern Christian positions about this myself from a personal view, so I appreicate this.
I’m not absolutely certain but do not think the Roman Rite would accept this “God-is-not-hate” idea, not because “God is love” “limits” Him but because it leaves open the interpretation that God is indifferent, which goes completely against Christian belief.
It’s true that Moslems don’t say that, as Christians say, “God is Love.” However, the problem with Islam is that when it does speak in positive terms about the nature of Allah as a noun, it’s always in connection with Allah’s will acting as will being Allah’s nature.
There has been some speculation here that the “angel Gabriel” alleged to have appeared to Mohammed was actually Lucifer who convinced him to start a religion to lead man away from God while appearing to be the “true” one. Your idea that Allah’s will defining his nature supports this, because the Christian teaching is that Lucifer was cast out of Paradise as a result of a contest of wills with God. Lucifer then would necessarily present himself as a god of will. Any thoughts on this?
 
planten: You are wrong. Quran is not a lame or disabled body (book) who cannot walk without the crutches of the Hadith… Quran is independent. It does not need any support from any where. However, hadith is useful in some matters only.

Planten, you say that the Koran can stand without the hadith and doesn’t need “support,”
yet the Koran is impossible to understand without the Hadith because the Koran is not a history book- per the Moslem view, it’s the eternal and uncreated word of Allah. It’s not interested in history- it’s pre-existing the word of Allah. I never said the Koran is lame or disabled- those are your words, not mind.

Even the greatest Quranic commentators such as Al-Tabari, Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Qayyum Al-Jawzi, and more all quote the hadith, often times literally in their commentaries. This is because the Quran cannot be explained on its own because it’s not a history book- the hadith provides the only historical and situational context for the particular passage(s) in question.

If you don’t believe me, I suggest that you go to Al-Tafsir Online, which is operated by the Royal Aal Bayt Islamic Institute of Jordan’s Tafsir Study Center (altafsir.org) You can read the original Arabic Koranic commentaries, and the orthodox Islamic scholars all used the Hadith heavily for each passage because the Koran can only be completely explained in light of its surrounding historical events as are found in the Hadith.

If you disagree, provide textual proof supplimented by logical reasoning.

planten:No. Sunnah is not transmitted through Hadith. I had told you that Sunnah is the practice of the prophet from day one. That was observed by many people and copied and followed through all times till today…COLOR]

Planten, are you a Sunni or a Shia?

I’m asking you this because if you are speaking as a Shia Moslem, I can see why you would attempt to makes such a strong differentiation between the sunna and the hadith, the reason being because in Shiism there is a difference between teachings of the Imams as the sunna, or traidtion of MOhammed, and then the hadith in a separate category.

However, the “conflict” you bring up between the sunna and the hadith is a sectarian dispute within Sunni Islam since the early days. Second, what you have said is the reason why the written Hadith exist. It’s because there were so many people with different claims to traditions and practices, that a written Hadith was finally compiled in order to sort between the differences. Yes, the sunna was learned and memorized by people. That’s why the hadith exists. It’s the written expression of the sunna.

You must show proof and logical reasoning for your views- I would be more than happy to do the same for my assertions.

planten: Thanks for admitting some truth in the matter. The differences are not minor. Every sect of Islam has got their own bubdle of Hadith. If differences were minor then there will not be multiple sects in Islam.

Again, can you provide examples from the Hadith text of such major differences that you claim exist within the hadith about the same issues? I would be more than happy to give Hadith, with proof and logical reasoning to support my assertions.

Second, you say that each sect of Islam has their own “bubble” of Hadith. I can see where there is an exception of Shiism vs. Sunnism, but even they cross-reference, especially in the case of history. The practical application of Islamic law differs between the different Sunni Moslem sects. But even in this case, the differences are not necessarily all that great. To quote the Moslem convert and Shafi scholar Nuh Ha Mim Keller:

The four Sunnni schools of Islamic law, Hanafi, Malikii, Shafi, and Hanbali, are identical in approximately 75 percent of ther legal conclusion, whie the remaining questions, variances within a single family of explainers of the Holy Koran and prophetic sunna, are traceable to methodological differences in understanding or authentication of the primary textual evidence, ediffereing viewpoints sometimes relflected in even a single school (Source: Reliance of the Traveler. Translated Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Amana Publications. 1994. Introduction: page vii)

planten:…It is known that Imam Bukhari new many (100,000) un-authentic Hadith which he did not use…

There are many rules about the use of Hadith, more than 20 rules. I wrote only two or three rules of importance. Hadith is to serve the Quran and the Sunnah…

Hadith comes at the third place in our system, after the Quran and Sunnah. The people who are fond of Hadith, they like to find some place for Hadith in the system so they try to equate hadith with Sunnah…

I’m not interested in how many rules there are for Hadith- I’m interested in what Moslem scholars understood to be accurate after years careful study and verification. You’re missing or selectively avoiding my point, so I say again: Moslem scholars would not have written somethingintentionally if they thought it was false because Mohammed said:

Don’t lie against me, for whoever lies against me will go to the fire (Of hell). (Bukhari Vol I, Book III, Traditions #106, 107-111)

It’s your opinion that it’s wrong to equate the Hadith with the Sunna. It’s an on-going dispute among Moslems even to today- there are many who would disagree with you. The Hadith is NOT “third place,” as you call it, unless you are coming from a Shia perspective. It’s impossible to deny that the Hadith and the Sunna, as ou seem to imply, are completely separated from each other. I challenge you to show otherwise, and I will provide proof to support my assertions if you wish to do so.
 
**samaan, you are making extra ordinarily long posts so that I cannot reply to each of your points.
You know that there is a limit on length of the posts.

You are not trying to understand. you are taking shelter behind some scholars of Islam. We had scholars like your Mathew and Mark and Luke. But they are men like us. I have a right to differ from them. I had told you that some verses of the Quran have been particularly repeated and explained by Quran itself. Only some verses of the Quran have been covered by the Hadith, not all the Quran.

You know very well that there were no Hadith for the 200 years. So how was the system running? I had told you that the difference of opinion entered into Islam only after the arrival of the books of Hadith. There was some usefulness and mostly, it made people differ.

You are telling that Hadith was written after seeing the people do somethings. You are wrong. You are not interested in all the rules about Hadith (about 20 rules). Why is that? Then you should Quit.

My main argument was that Quran is number One. Sunnah is number two. hadith is number three. You have not yet been able to see the importance of the Sunnah, i.e. the practice of the prophet which was observed by multitude of Muslims from day one. Do you know the importance of the eyes?

You are trying to impress me with ears. i.e. Hadith. I am trying to tell you the importance of the eyes. Nothing can be as good as the thing seen with the eyes. Now I tell you a Hadith:

The prophet said, “Lais al khabar u kal Mua’ainah”. meaning: “There is no news better than what is seen (observed).”. In Persian also, it is said, “Shuneedah kay bawad Maanind i deedah.” Meaning: “How can the thing heard be equal to the thing which is seen with the eyes.!”

When the Hadith was not collected until about 180 Hijri, how can you give it importance over the Sunnah?

Keep trying.**
 
**samaan, please remember what I had said: “Hadith is to serve the Quran and Sunnah. Not to take charge of the Quran.”

It means any Hadith which is explicitly against the Quran will be rejected. Rather than rejecting any verse of the Quran, it is better to reject that Hadith which is against the teachings of the Quran.

Also, any Hadith which is against any well known authentic (agreed correct) Hadith is also to be rejected.

Also, we have to see if a Hadith is reported by a single reporter (narrator). That will not be trustworthy, being singular.

Also, there are other tests for the Hadith, such as:
  1. Darayat: The matter, the contents of the Hadith should be good and perfect. i.e. the material of the Hadith should be good and should not be malafide.
  2. Rawayat: The reporters should be good and reliable.
Here also, Darayat is number One. Rawayat comes afterwards. If a Hadith has doubtful or bad matter then it will not be put to any further test.

Please continue your effort to understand all about the Hadith.**
 
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