Ask about Islam round 3!

[sedonaman]

Good morning Samaan,

You have a captive audience with me as well. I’ve learned so such from your postings.

Thank you!!

Yes. Maybe now we can move beyond, “It is so!” “It is not!” “It is so!” “It is not!” … “It is not!” “It is so!” “It is not!” “It is so!”

 

[jakasaki]

Yes. Maybe now we can move beyond, “It is so!” “It is not!” “It is so!” “It is not!” … “It is not!” “It is so!” “It is not!” “It is so!”

Good morning SedonaMan - I can’t believe what you wrote because I was thinking of the same thing but more like…

Is too - Is not

Are too - Are not

Be well and have a great weekend. Our new poster is definitely a breath of fresh air and I for one enjoy learning and reading his/hers posts.

 

[pismopal]

Hi

The word Islam is very much mentioned in Quran and it means peace.

Thanks

OK…and the Japanese word " Kamikazi" means “Divine Wind.” The divine wind was certainly not a wind nor was it divine. You muslim apologists use words very carelessly. Please consider actions of adherents…not words on a printed page.

 

[jakasaki]

Hi

The word Islam is very much mentioned in Quran and it means peace.

Thanks

I know I posted this at another thread so here it is from an islamic site…

Surrender

This is understood from a verse in the Holy Quran - Allah says:
“Inna deena indalahil-Islam.” (Certainly, the only acceptable way which Allah will accept is Islam). [Holy Quran 3:19]

This submission requires a fully conscious and willing effort to submit to the one Almighty God.

Submission

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (Muhammad, peace be upon him) as a judge in all disputes between them, and find no resistance against your decisions, and accept (the decisions) with full submission.” [Holy Quran 4:65]

Total submission is required after the surrender and some terms have to be set forth by Allah to be understood by the Muslim. There can be no option in the matter as Allah says in another verse,
“It is not fitting for the believing man nor for the believing woman, that whenever Allah and His Messenger have decided any matter, that they should have any other opinion.”
[Holy Quran 33:36]

**Obedience **

“And obey Allah and His Messenger.”
[Holy Quran 3:132]

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.” [Holy Quran 4:59]

“He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you as a watcher over them.”
[Holy Quran 4:80]

**Sincerity & Purity of Intention **

The heart must be clean and honest. Allah is Pure and He only accepts pure.

“Verily, deeds are rewarded by intention. And everyone will have the reward for that which he has intended.”
[A saying of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him - Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 1 #1]

**Peace **
“Peace” (Salam) is mentioned many times in the Holy Quran and it is certainly the most sought after condition for the life of every human on earth.

“The Peace” (As-Salam) is also one of the attributes which Allah has named Himself by in the Holy Quran:

“He is Allah beside Whom there is none worthy of worship, The King, The Holy, The Peace, The Watcher, The All Mighty, The Compeller, The Supreme. Glory be to Allah! He is above all that they try to associate with Him as partners.” [Holy Quran 59:23]

The above can be accessed from:

islamtomorrow.com/definition.asp#surrender

 

[sedonaman]

OK…and the Japanese word " Kamikazi" means “Divine Wind.” The divine wind was certainly not a wind nor was it divine. You muslim apologists use words very carelessly. …

On the contrary. They choose their words carefully.

The problem most people are unaware of is their concepts are different from Western concepts. Take “peace” for example. To the Western mind it means something like the absence of war, but to a Muslim it means Islamic peace when Islam rules the world. Same with “justice”.

Most non-Muslims don’t realize that Muslim Woman’s starting every post with “Salaam/peace” is an offense against them.

 

[samaan]

On the contrary. They choose their words carefully.

The problem most people are unaware of is their concepts are different from Western concepts. Take “peace” for example. To the Western mind it means something like the absence of war, but to a Muslim it means Islamic peace when Islam rules the world. Same with “justice”.

Most non-Muslims don’t realize that Muslim Woman’s starting every post with “Salaam/peace” is an offense against them.

Hi Sedonaman,

Just to clarify, Islam does not mean peace. It derives from a root-verb meaning peace, but Islam doesn’t mean peace.

In arabic, the entire language is based off what is called a “root-verb” concept (I believe there is a more technical term for this). All words (nouns, adjective, other verbs, etc.) derive from a “core” verb. In arabic, 95% of the time these consist of verbs with three fixed consonants:

salama
kataba

Other consonants may be added and vowels re-arranged, but the “root” consonants stay the same.

In the case of the word Islam, the original root verb is salama, meaning “to be peaceful.” However, the word Islam is a verbial noun derived from what Arabic Grammar Scholars call the fourth form (form IV) of the verb salama, which is Aslama

Each form has different meanings. Form II means “to do something repeatedly” (so salama in form II would change to sallama, and mean “to bring peace or pacify.”
For IV means that the action is being forced upon something or somebody:

As an example, the verb kataba in form IV becomes aktaba, meaning "to make somebody write.

In the same manner, salama becomes in form IV aslama meaning “to force peace, pacify, subjugate, or make submit.”

Islam is the verbial noun, hence meaning “submission”

 

[sedonaman]

Hi Sedonaman,

Just to clarify, Islam does not mean peace. It derives from a root-verb meaning peace, but Islam doesn’t mean peace.

In arabic, the entire language is based off what is called a “root-verb” concept (I believe there is a more technical term for this). All words (nouns, adjective, other verbs, etc.) derive from a “core” verb. In arabic, 95% of the time these consist of verbs with three fixed consonants:

salama
kataba

Other consonants may be added and vowels re-arranged, but the “root” consonants stay the same.

In the case of the word Islam, the original root verb is salama, meaning “to be peaceful.” However, the word Islam is a verbial noun derived from what Arabic Grammar Scholars call the fourth form (form IV) of the verb salama, which is Aslama

Each form has different meanings. Form II means “to do something repeatedly” (so salama in form II would change to sallama, and mean “to bring peace or pacify.”
For IV means that the action is being forced upon something or somebody:

As an example, the verb kataba in form IV becomes aktaba, meaning "to make somebody write.

In the same manner, salama becomes in form IV aslama meaning “to force peace, pacify, subjugate, or make submit.”

Islam is the verbial noun, hence meaning “submission”.

Thank you for your post. Most interesting. In my life, I have studied the following foreign languages: Latin, French, and Korean, but at this time taking on another language would be very daunting.

I was aware that “Islam” does not mean “peace”; my point, of course, being that by “peace” Muslims mean something unacceptable to Christians in particular and Westerners in general.

I think you have made valuable contributions here. Thank you!

 

[planten]

Planten,

Thank you for an honest response. I appreciate it.

In response to your question.

No, I never said that the Hadith of Bukhari says that “Mohammed was visited by the devil.” I never said this because this is not true.

I also said there are many examples in the text which suggest, when proof and logical reasoning is applied to them that “Gabriel” was satan in disguise.
]/quote]

** You are trying to draw wrong conclusions. If Muhammad said that it was an angel (nevermind about his name) then why don’t you believe it? Why do you try to draw wrong conclusions of your own bad wishes? I will prove to you about your mistake. That is why i asked you “Who told you that Jesus is God?” You have tried to avoid that because it was a difficult question. If you give me the answer then you will come to know that your using double standards.**

---

In the Bible, Angels always identify themselves. In the few cases where angels don’t identify themselves directly, the people to whom the angel is speaking know that an angel is talking to them

 

[samaan]

** You are trying to draw wrong conclusions. If Muhammad said that it was an angel (nevermind about his name) then why don’t you believe it?
**

Translation: Mohammed said it was an angel so it must be true.

Let’s apply the same logic to some other scenarios:

David Koresh said he was the Messiah. David Koresh said it so it must be true.
Charles Manson said he was God. Charles Manson said it so it must be true.
The man on infomercial TV said I needed a new steak knife set. The man on the TV said it so it must be true.

Planten, you cannot say something is true because X said it. You need to provide proof, examples, logical reasoning that are supplimented by referenced sources so you can support your beliefs.

The reason I question Mohammed is same reason why I don’t believe what you say, Planten- you persistently refuse to provide proof, logical reasoning, sources, and examples for your statements other than yourself.

Why do you try to draw wrong conclusions of your own bad wishes? I will prove to you about your mistake.

There you go again attacking me. How about trying to answer my question or provide proofs for your assertions backed up by sources?

Oh, that’s right- you cannot provide any sources- your pride prevents you from doing so since you already know that there is no answer to the points I have raised.

After all, what is 14 centuries of Islamic history carefully recorded by orthodox Islamic scholars, even cited in the original arabic and backed up by consistent arguments really mean? It seems you are quite the scholar, Planten- Maybe you should write your own book of Hadith.

That is why i asked you “Who told you that Jesus is God?” You have tried to avoid that because it was a difficult question. If you give me the answer then you will come to know that your using double standards.

Translation: Let’s change the topic in order to hide my intellectual cowardice because I don’t really want to answer the question, I just want to yell at you through the posts.

That’s right- it’s all my fault for maintaining standards of proof, logical reasoning, examples, and referenced sources and calling you to accountability when you refuse to be accountable to your own answers.

We will see about later whether angel identifies himself in the bible…

Perhaps you should try reading my postings and cross-checking my references (which I encourage you to do).

I replied to that before. It is all in some false narrations, written by men. It is nothign from God or from the prophet himself. So you could have left those things (fantacies) alone.

So you’re telling me the hadith is entirely man-made and falsified?

I guess 14 centuries of Islamic history- Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, Majah, Tirmidhi, Nasai, Malik, Hanafi, Hanbal, Shafi, Al-Ghazzali, Al Tabari, Tabarsi, Ibn Qayyum, Ibn Taymiyya, Razi, Suyuti, Jalalayn, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa’d Waqidi, Ibn Asakir, Al-Asqalani, Al-Hindi, Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, Imam Shadhili, … and so forth.

I guess all these people, scholars, historicans, writers, theologicans, all whom lived during the classical Islamic period and wrote all that we know about Islamic history and theology are all wrong.

Who really cares about knowledge or if things actually make sense in what we believe and say, even if they are Moslems?

I can’t help if you refuse to read the hadith or my arguments, Planten. I suggest that you do, because the only person that it makes look poor is you because you cannot use any sort of intellectual means when responding.

**Yes that is good. But remember another good thing that I told you about not blaming anything on the prophet aomething which could be found in Jesus too, something which may be similar found in your beliefs.
**

Did you actually read my posting? I didn’t think so.

samaan, Now I will tell you that the question about “Who told you that Jesus is God?” is very important in the same connection. Either you ask me the reason for that or you give me some reply to my question please because it is a related matter. The best thing is that You tell me the answer to “Who told you that Jesus is God?”

Then we will proceed in this same toipc. I want to know, who told you tht Jesus is God and did you believe that Jesus is God? And why did you believe that Jesus is God. Welcome.

No. I will not answer your questions.

I already told you- if you want to debate Jesus’ divinity, take it to another discussion. We have not spent the last week talking about Jesus divinity. This is about Mohammed

You answer my questions first.

You have no right to insist that I answer your questions when you persistently and consistenly refuse to answer my questions.

I ask you again- Will you answer my questions using proof, logical reasoning, examples, and sources?

Yes or no?

 

[sedonaman]

Planten, anything which I say about Mohammed I say because it’s recorded by orthodox Islamic historians and scholars in orthodox Islamic texts.

The legendary “satanic verses”?

I cannot control what Mohammed did or didn’t do. That’s not for me to do. My job is to simply present the original Islamic text directly, honestly, and humbly. This is what I strive to do.

It’s amazing. Planten, et al, are trying again to fall back on their tactic of accusing those who quote Islamic text of “abusing Mohammed [or Islam]”, only this time it isn’t working.

Planten, you can be assured that as I have done in past postings and I will do in future ones, I will:

-Cite all my sources
-Use feasable examples
-Provide Proof
-Use Logical reasoning.

If you disagree with something I say, bring it to the source and we can discuss the source, but do not criticise me for merely and humbly quoting what Islamic texts have said for more than a thousand years.

Speaking of proof, Here is a theory that lends more credibility that the “angel” appearing to Mohammed was actually Satan who started Islam to lead people away from God, and how.

 

[dzheremi]

It’s amazing. Planten, et al, are trying again to fall back on their tactic of accusing those who quote Islamic text of “abusing Mohammed [or Islam]”, only this time it isn’t working.

Wait…it worked before? This is news to me.

 

[sedonaman]

Translation: Mohammed said it was an angel so it must be true.

Let’s apply the same logic to some other scenarios:

David Koresh said he was the Messiah. David Koresh said it so it must be true.
Charles Manson said he was God. Charles Manson said it so it must be true.
The man on infomercial TV said I needed a new steak knife set. The man on the TV said it so it must be true.

Part of Islamic dualistic logic must be that the same reasoning process can support a double standard: Mohammed said it, so it must be true; the flimflam man said it, so it’s not necessarily true. Since we lack first-hand knowledge of Mohammed and what he said and did, the only proof we have that what he is reported to have said/done represents truth is whether or not the doctrine makes any sense; and dwelling on the divinity of Jesus will not help.

No. I will not answer your questions.

I already told you- if you want to debate Jesus’ divinity, take it to another discussion. We have not spent the last week talking about Jesus divinity. This is about Mohammed

You answer my questions first.

You have no right to insist that I answer your questions when you persistently and consistenly refuse to answer my questions.

It is obvious that planten is confusing beliefs with facts. What I detect in Muslim posters is the notion that if Mohammed didn’t say it or do it, then it is un-Islamic, which raises some rather interesting questions. Mohammed never made a phone call; is it against Islam for a Muslim to use the phone? Why or why not?

 

[sedonaman]

**… But remember another good thing that I told you about not blaming anything on the prophet aomething which could be found in Jesus too, something which may be similar found in your beliefs.
**

This is a tu quoque fallacy; as such it is irrelevant. I stated before that if “A” robbed a bank, you can’t excuse “B” for doing the same thing. What Mohammed did or didn’t do has nothing to do with Jesus. Judged by an objective standard, each one must stand or fall on his own.

 

[samaan]

Part of Islamic dualistic logic must be that the same reasoning process can support a double standard: Mohammed said it, so it must be true; the flimflam man said it, so it’s not necessarily true. Since we lack first-hand knowledge of Mohammed and what he said and did, the only proof we have that what he is reported to have said/done represents truth is whether or not the doctrine makes any sense; and dwelling on the divinity of Jesus will not help.

Planten is using a typical debating tactic than many Moslems employ when they can’t actually answer a question- they just switch to another one and try to avoid the subject.

It’s the reason why Planten won’t answer me- he knows that he cannot respond.

It is obvious that planten is confusing beliefs with facts. What I detect in Muslim posters is the notion that if Mohammed didn’t say it or do it, then it is un-Islamic, which raises some rather interesting questions. Mohammed never made a phone call; is it against Islam for a Muslim to use the phone? Why or why not?

Now you’re thinking Islamic style!

You have made an important point- Islam is an orthopraxic religion- deeds and works net salvation. Additionally, all deeds can be classified into different types, based on merit (or demerits) they incur.

I wonder what St. Paul would have to say if he was in this discussion…

 

[inJESUS]

Do you really think it is fair to ask a muslim (or anyone else) to provide proof that the angel Gabriel as described in the Koran wasn’t Lucifer

yes it is fair if the author of the Quran claimed that his spirit was giving him revelations from God, the same God who revealed to Biblical prophets. Testing spirits is discerning whether their teachings confirm to God’s words or not, and the fruit of these teachings.

Add to it that it is Islamic sources which portray a bewitched man, a man who attempted suicide, a man who was commanded by Jinn ( and who claimed they became Muslims good companions).

Talking about it, i wonder why these jinn became believers in God only after Muhammad’s “preaching”. Wasn’t Muhammad’s message supposed to have been revealed earlier to humanity and he came to restore it back? one wonders what took this “spirits” thousands of years to believe in God, but it could well be Arabic poetry and as Muhammad says, poetry has the effect of magic so by poetic magic, Muhammad turned devils into Muslims…subhanallah.

 

[samaan]

This is a tu quoque fallacy; as such it is irrelevant. I stated before that if “A” robbed a bank, you can’t excuse “B” for doing the same thing. What Mohammed did or didn’t do has nothing to do with Jesus. Judged by an objective standard, each one must stand or fall on his own.

Thank you for the clarification. My point exactly, although more eloquently stated by you.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The Prophetic Ethics:Our Daily Challenge

By Muzammil H. Siddiqi

President of Fiqh Council — North America

[But those will prosper who purify themselves, glorify the name of their Lord, and (lift their hearts) in Prayer. Nay (behold), you prefer the life of this world; but the Hereafter is better and more enduring.

And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelations), the Books of Abraham and Moses.] (Al-A`la 87:14-19)

…It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: My Lord gave me nine (bits of) advice and I give them to you.

He advised me:

• To be sincere whether in private or in public
• To do justice whether in anger or in happiness
• To be moderate whether in riches or in poverty
• To join (in relations) with those who (try) to cut me off
• To give to those who deprive me
• To forgive those who do wrong to me
• That my silence be thoughtful
• That my speech be mindful (of Allah)
• That my vision be to take admonition.

This advice contains the basic ethic of Islam, which is not an ordinary ethic but is divine and prophetic. The ethical principles given here require special effort, training, and sacrifice. It is not easy or simple to live by these principles, but they have lasting values and they bring eternal blessings.

Sources:

Khutbah at Islamic Center of Orange County, Garden Grove, California, USA on 23 Safar 1424/1 November 2003.

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658459187&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah/LSELayout

 

[planten]

Translation: Mohammed said it was an angel so it must be true.

Let’s apply the same logic to some other scenarios:

David Koresh said he was the Messiah. David Koresh said it so it must be true.
Charles Manson said he was God. Charles Manson said it so it must be true.
The man on infomercial TV said I needed a new steak knife set. The man on the TV said it so it must be true.

Planten, you cannot say something is true because X said it. You need to provide proof, examples, logical reasoning that are supplimented by referenced sources so you can support your beliefs.

The reason I question Mohammed is same reason why I don’t believe what you say, Planten- you persistently refuse to provide proof, logical reasoning, sources, and examples for your statements other than yourself.

There you go again attacking me. How about trying to answer my question or provide proofs for your assertions backed up by sources?

Oh, that’s right- you cannot provide any sources- your pride prevents you from doing so since you already know that there is no answer to the points I have raised.

After all, what is 14 centuries of Islamic history carefully recorded by orthodox Islamic scholars, even cited in the original arabic and backed up by consistent arguments really mean? It seems you are quite the scholar, Planten- Maybe you should write your own book of Hadith.
Translation: Let’s change the topic in order to hide my intellectual cowardice because I don’t really want to answer the question, I just want to yell at you through the posts.

That’s right- it’s all my fault for maintaining standards of proof, logical reasoning, examples, and referenced sources and calling you to accountability when you refuse to be accountable to your own answers.

Perhaps you should try reading my postings and cross-checking my references (which I encourage you to do).

So you’re telling me the hadith is entirely man-made and falsified?

I guess 14 centuries of Islamic history- Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, Majah, Tirmidhi, Nasai, Malik, Hanafi, Hanbal, Shafi, Al-Ghazzali, Al Tabari, Tabarsi, Ibn Qayyum, Ibn Taymiyya, Razi, Suyuti, Jalalayn, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa’d Waqidi, Ibn Asakir, Al-Asqalani, Al-Hindi, Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, Imam Shadhili, … and so forth.

I guess all these people, scholars, historicans, writers, theologicans, all whom lived during the classical Islamic period and wrote all that we know about Islamic history and theology are all wrong.

Who really cares about knowledge or if things actually make sense in what we believe and say, even if they are Moslems?

I can’t help if you refuse to read the hadith or my arguments, Planten. I suggest that you do, because the only person that it makes look poor is you because you cannot use any sort of intellectual means when responding.

Did you actually read my posting? I didn’t think so.

No. I will not answer your questions.

I already told you- if you want to debate Jesus’ divinity, take it to another discussion. We have not spent the last week talking about Jesus divinity. This is about Mohammed

You answer my questions first.

You have no right to insist that I answer your questions when you persistently and consistenly refuse to answer my questions.

I ask you again- Will you answer my questions using proof, logical reasoning, examples, and sources?

Yes or no?

**samaan, I have every right to ask your about the very basic simple question. You do not believe in what Muhamamd said. I wanted to know whom do you believe. You have failed completely to answer the difficult question. It will soon be proved that you people have no religion because you have made up things.

Tell me who told you that Jesus is god? You still have time but I am sure you cannot reply to my question till doomsday.**

 

[planten]

**J C, Muslim Woman has presented to you all things in detail. Perhaps now you will also bring out a good list of your good beliefs please. It is no use saying these things were known for ages.

I remind you that Quran calls itself “tadhkirah” i.e. a reminder. the truths that Quran teaches are already known to mankind. They are in the nature of mankind. The truths that Quran is presenting to the world is nothing new (out of the blue sky)… All are the universal truths thatthe world may have forgotten, like worshipping a mere man. etc. was not allowed in any previous religion. Tell me:

1. which religion taught to worship a man or man of God.?
2. Which religion made a man into god?

So the prophet Muhammad brought the real old teachings back to mankind reminding them of the old teachings of all prophets of God.**

 

[dzheremi]

J C, Muslim Woman has presented to you all things in detail. Perhaps now you will also bring out a good list of your good beliefs please. It is no use saying these things were known for ages.

Um…(name removed by moderator) was pointing out that all of those things were already present in Christianity hundreds of years before Islam, and many were also in other religions before Christianity. So what do you want him to do…write the same things over again?

I remind you that Quran calls itself “tadhkirah” i.e. a reminder. the truths that Quran teaches are already known to mankind. They are in the nature of mankind. The truths that Quran is presenting to the world is nothing new (out of the blue sky)… All are the universal truths thatthe world may have forgotten,

No, we did not forget. We lived by our oral and written traditions in 630 AD just as we try to do in 2009 AD. The year changes, but the faith, God-willing, does not. If everything the Qur’an brought that was good (like in the list Muslim Woman presented), but none of it was new (as you have admitted), then it is has contributed nothing good to mankind. I don’t think you want to look down that road, my friend, but maybe you are willing to do so, if you can admit at least that the Qur’an is not anything new.

1. which religion taught to worship a man or man of God?

I’m going to say “Islam” because there is no religion that I know of that so eagerly “respects” its prophet(s) that it places them alongside God in the way that Islam does with Muhammad. Say whatever you will about Christianity, but you will not find “God and Elijah say” or “God and John the Baptist decree” in the Bible in the way that you find Muhammad paired with Allah in the Qur’an.

1. Which religion made a man into god?

Mormonism.

So the prophet Muhammad brought the real old teachings back to mankind reminding them of the old teachings of all prophets of God

Is that so? I must have missed the parts in the Bible where it was declared a-ok to marry your son-in-law’s wife because he isn’t reallyyyy your son, or to kill someone who writes a bad poem about you, or to look at a child with lust, or stone women to death (keep in mind Jesus’ words for the crowd who would stone the woman: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”). I must have missed all of those things, yes…

I do wish Muhammad had preserved one teaching of Jesus. If he did and there is something comparable to it in the Qur’an, I would certainly like to know about it. The verse is Matthew 26:52 “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.”

It seems that generation after generation of Muslims, who claim that their faith preserves the true teachings of God, have decided that this must be one of those “abrogations” (oh, no…that’s not the right word…LIES) in the Bible, inserted by the evil Christians who…gosh…I am so mad, I can barely finish… who wanted people to **live in peace **with one another!