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morning_star777
Guest
I heard that except religious(islamic songs) songs,all kinds of songs are forbidden.BTW,do you think that romantic songs are provocative?Your clerics think so
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morning_star777
Guest
My brother,I heard some lecture of jakir Nayek.This man(Jakir nayek) is ready to accept Brahma as God but he is not ready to accept the 4 heads of Brahma
.Really brother,Jakir nayek is seducing people with his weird logic.BTW,jakir nayek is playing football in an empty field and he loves it
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sedonaman
Guest
Could you explain how those two statements can both be true?
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morning_star777
Guest
Planten,believe me, Last night Jeebril came to me and told that Allah has changed his mind(like allah’s previous scriptures are altered),and choose me as another prophet.Planten Allah can do everything,correct?And if Allah’s word can be changed by men so why Allah can not change his own word?
PS.jibreel told me that I am the prophet,why not believe that?
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morning_star777
Guest
You are wrong,Actually Muslims are always hostile to catholics and other non Muslims.In this worlt Muslims are killing people,raping western girl in the name of your great islam.but what can I say?As a blind person you will never see the faults and the satanic activities of your own nation.before blaming others,blame your own people.Can you show me any Muslim who loves A Jewish or other non muslims?Muslims are always hostile like beasts in reality,but you impute it to others.1st ask your brothers stop killing people then try to do something good for people.but 1st clean your own house please.
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sedonaman
Guest
…“Let’s examine the ethical basis of our civilization. All of our politics and ethics are based upon a unitary ethic that is best formulated in the Golden Rule:
Treat others as you would be treated.
“The basis of this rule is the recognition that at one level, we are all the same. We are not all equal. Any game of sports will show that we do not have equal abilities. But everyone wants to be treated as a human being. In particular, we all want to be equal under the law and be treated as social equals. On the basis of the Golden Rule – the equality of human beings – we have created democracy, ended slavery, and treat women and men as political equals. So the Golden Rule is a unitary ethic. All people are to be treated the same. All religions have some version of the Golden Rule except Islam.
“… The term “human being” has no meaning inside of Islam. There is no such thing as humanity, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever.
“… Political Islam’s most famous duality is the division of the world into believers, dar al Islam, and unbelievers, dar al harb. The largest part of the Trilogy relates to treatment of the unbelievers, kafirs. Even Hell is political. There are 146 references to Hell in the Koran. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings – murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime. Hence, Islamic Hell is a political prison for those who speak against Islam.”
According to our friend planten, post #69 in “A brief history of political Islam,” Islam is not a political religion. Islam has its own politics, but there is no politics in Islam. How’s that for an example of Islamic duality?
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morning_star777
Guest
I also heard this weird fatwa some times.Actually some says that it is the position of sex,(man on the top of woman).So some Muslim clerics says that it is a type of mental Jina(fornication).Although I am not sure that,is it supported by any pure hadith or any verse of koran.Is this true? And what would be the reasoning for this?
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Jay53
Guest
So wouldn’t that be - men shouldn’t sleep on their stomachs and women shouldn’t sleep on their backs?
I just don’t understand the reasoning for this directive. Personally I always go to sleep on my stomach - the only time I don’t/didn’t was when I was pregnant and my belly was too big. IMO, it is just a very strange directive supposedly from God - I honestly don’t think God cares which side we sleep on.
I just wondered what the reasoning would be for this - that someone “may” think of sex is a bit of a stretch as to forbid sleeping that way at all. And what happens if you unconsciously turn that way in your sleep?
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morning_star777
Guest
So wouldn’t that be - men shouldn’t sleep on their stomachs and women shouldn’t sleep on their backs?
.Why are you confused sister?Muhammed said that wine is forbidden but camel’s urine is good for health.What can you expect from such a man,( the islamic prophet) who thought that urine is good for health?
I also do not think that God cares such silly things.Actually Muslims’ claims make God a jokerIMO, it is just a very strange directive supposedly from God - I honestly don’t think God cares which side we sleep on.
.BTW,you know that islam is not from God but it is from such a man who want to erase God’s name from this world.
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chrisse
Guest
Reply Part 1
The Islamic concept differs here. It is true that those who enslave themselves to allah have a degree of free will, and “what is written for them in the womb” and “what is written for them at maturity” may indeed differ due to their free will. However, the difference in Islam and Christianity lies in the distinction of those who enslave themselves to allah, and those who do not believe.
The non-believers have had their eyes closed to allah by allah by allah. Therefore, he has removed any free will from non-believers himself.
You are missing the point entirely. YHWH has not absolutely predestined anyone to eternal damnation. By anyone, that includes BOTH those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour within the Catholic concept. So, in Christianity, because you are a muslim, and have not accepted Christ as Lord, this does not automatically mean you are predestined by YHWH to eternal damnation.
The Islamic concept differs here. It is true that those who enslave themselves to allah have a degree of free will, and “what is written for them in the womb” and “what is written for them at maturity” may indeed differ due to their free will. However, the difference in Islam and Christianity lies in the distinction of those who enslave themselves to allah, and those who do not believe.
The non-believers have had their eyes closed to allah by allah by allah. Therefore, he has removed any free will from non-believers himself.
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chrisse
Guest
Reply Part 2
So we do have verses which indicate free will, but note they are defined by “believers”, non-believers don’t get a look in, not even if they live righteous and good lives despite their “disbelief”:
So we do have verses which indicate free will, but note they are defined by “believers”, non-believers don’t get a look in, not even if they live righteous and good lives despite their “disbelief”:
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chrisse
Guest
Reply Part 3
As can be seen from the quotes from the qur’an below, those of us who are “unbelievers” are in such a state because allah has predestined us to be “unbelievers”.
As can be seen from the quotes from the qur’an below, those of us who are “unbelievers” are in such a state because allah has predestined us to be “unbelievers”.
The problem for islamic apologists is that the qur’an is seen as the literal dictated words of Allah, and the sayings and traditions of mohammet as the expression of the literal predetermined code of good conduct that allah requires for allah’s “salvation”. So, there’s not a lot of room for philosophical thought in Islam outside of the literal words. And, of course, those literal words MUST be in Arabic, and we all know the translations are softened from their real meaning.
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The_Fool
Guest
Firstly, Although your words may be true, your post has no relation to what you quoted. She was not discussing how Muslims treat Catholics, but how Catholics treat Muslims, from her experience at least. Secondly, I doubt generalizations are appreciated by anyone as they lump individuals together, even if there are deviants in said group. I do not believe that Muslims (implied all) are always hostile to non-Muslims, although some probably are. Are there Muslims killing people, yes, but not just non-Muslims. I read in the paper today of a bomber who attacked a mosque in Pakistan during Friday prayers. And what is this thing with the West, it should be a shame that any girl is raped, not just “Western” girls, and no doubt there are Muslims who agree with that sentiment. As for a Muslim who loves a non-Muslim, a name in San Jose named Ibrahim Baballah claims to be born from such a union, and I assume there was love in the marriage from which he was born. Not all Muslims are always hostile, and I have difficulty figure out what you mean toward the end. So you rebuke Muslims, but I think you would be offended if they were to rebuke you with those same words in turn. Yes, there are people in our house responsible for the deaths of some Muslims, no matter how direct, and every avoidable death is a mark against us. Uh… and are you asking her to clean her house (figuratively) before she asks others not to kill people and do good?
If I have made any mistakes regarding your train of thought, I would greatly appreciate any correction.
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The_Fool
Guest
I apologize for the second post, but chrisse brought up something I was curious about. I have heard that the sayings and traditions of Mohammad are very important (perhaps an understatement), however I was curious about what is not said in the Qur’an. For instance, what cultural practices are generally considered part of an expression of Islam, but are not directly stated in the Qur’an and thus not universal? I know there are a number of cultural practices that are not mentioned, and I guess I’m just curious about those specific practices. Hmm, did that make any sense? For instance, the procession of a patron saint might be considered, within a limited geographic location, as a part of Catholicism, but it’s not really a universal thing, and thus more of a cultural practice with a religious meaning. I suppose I’m looking for the different expressions of Islam based on different cultures. Someone redirect me if it has been mentioned elsewhere, please.
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Hypatia
Guest
As I already pointed out, that is exactly what Thomas says as well. I suggest you go back and read them again. The elect and reprobate are predestined by God based solely upon God, and thus independently of any merit (or demerit) on the part of human beings. It is not hard to find the same position in Augustine; you pick up any text where he is writing against Pelagius and you will find the exact same thing. In fact, as already mentioned, this is the dominant Christian position (at least in the “West”), and without it you have no real idea of God.
One might also point out basic texts like those found in Paul: Eph 1, where Paul says that humanity was chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world. I Cor 4,7: Where Paul reminds his readers that they have NOTHING that they did not receive (this is a particular favorite of Augustine, btw);
and perhaps most famously, Rom 9,11-13:
Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) [Rebecca] was told, ‘The elder shall serve the younger’. As it is written: ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated’.
Paul is of course just quoting the prophet Malachi (pbuh) there: see Mal. 1,2-3. And of course the whole thing references the story in the book of Genesis.
One might also think of stories like the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, and so on.
The bad news for you here, of course, is that predestination is part of your own tradition. But it of course part of your tradition because you can’t really believe in God without it. To deny it is to deny that the individual comes from and is embraced by the One in all that it is.
Moreover, none of this in any way is a denial of human freedom. Human freedom has its source and basis in Allah (swt) and is realized in return to Allah (swt).
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Hypatia
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Hypatia
Guest
You know, this may be an accurate representation of a segment of Islam, but do not try and pretend that we all think this way because it is convenient for you. The cultural dominance of the Athari aqidah is in many ways a recent affair. While it certainly took a hold upon Sunni Islam in the 10th century AD (and a decline in ijtihad and philosophy follows), one also finds, following this same period, the ascendancy of Persian Islam and its spread throughout the Middle East and into the Indian subcontinent. Both ijtiahd and philosophy flourished in the Persian milieu. One would also note the widespread influence of Sufi Islam throughout most of the Islamic world which, again, has a much more interesting and complex understanding of revelation than is indicated by you (and not surprisingly, those who are Athari are often anti-Sufi).
The real rise of what you are complaining about really only takes place with the birth of Islamic modernism, following the “reforms” of Wahab in the 18th c.AD (Wahab dies in 1796). The rise and spread of modernism coincides with the decline of Persian culture in the wake of European colonialism and a shift in the center of gravity in the Islamic world back to Arabia. But, even more than that it is really only in the 20th century with the rise of the house of Saud in wealth and power, and its ties to Islamic modernism, that this anti-traditionalist movement, with its rather narrow understanding of revelation and the Islamic tradition, has been exported (with lots of money flowing out of Saudi).
It is of course, best to read the Qur’an in Arabic, as it is the original language it was written in. Moreover Arabic is a very polyvalent language so that there is a lot of slippage in any translation. Arabic is a crucial language to the Islamic tradition as whole for historical reasons (and here Persian and to a degree Urdu most also be mentioned), much as Greek or Latin is to Christianity. But Islam does raise Arabic to a second person in God, or absolutize Arabian culture, or even a specific moment of Arabian culture (say, the period of the Salaf). All of this is resisted by major parts of Islam.
Finally, wahy, which is the word commonly used with respect to the revelations to the Prophet (pbuh) may be open to a number of meanings, but none of them include ‘dictation’. Inspiration and guidance are not dictation.
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chrisse
Guest
Dictation is my word to define the concept of revelation in islam as compared to the concept in Christianity. Bottom line - the qur’an is as per the words spoken to mohammet by what he called “jibriel” who apparently spoke the words as per a “book” that allah has with him. Mohammet was told to read/recite at his first “revelation”.
It appears that Hypatia is part of a group who is starting up an islamic sect which differs from traditional islam as it has been practised for 1400 years and is representated as such in the current fiqh (islamic jurisprudence). Or Hypatia is a westerner who has adopted what he/she has been told. Historical facts are there, and I do not bother with the current liberal tendency to present “historical narrative” in place of historical fact. Nor do I bother with these minor groups as they are themselves powerless against the tactics of the stronger group of traditional adherents of Islam. And the western “reverts” are walking around with eyes wide shut.
It appears that Hypatia is part of a group who is starting up an islamic sect which differs from traditional islam as it has been practised for 1400 years and is representated as such in the current fiqh (islamic jurisprudence). Or Hypatia is a westerner who has adopted what he/she has been told. Historical facts are there, and I do not bother with the current liberal tendency to present “historical narrative” in place of historical fact. Nor do I bother with these minor groups as they are themselves powerless against the tactics of the stronger group of traditional adherents of Islam. And the western “reverts” are walking around with eyes wide shut.
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Hypatia
Guest
You can’t even be bothered getting the historical facts right about your own tradition, as we have already seen in your poor understanding of the role of the idea of predestination within important Christian texts and thinkers from Paul to Thomas Aquinas, so it not surprising I suppose that you prefer to ignore the history of Islam as well in preference to what you call the facts.
Dictation is not a good translation of wahy, period…nor is it an accurate description of the revelatory experiences of the Prophet (pbuh) or his struggle to find words for the experiences (a secretary does not struggle with dictation).
And what 1400 years of Islam has produced is the almost universal existence of Sufism in a variety a forms throughout most of the Islamic world and across Sunni and Shi’a lines doing all sorts of things that the one group who you would like to identify as Muslim consider heretical (which is why the modernists in Pakistan for instance attack Sufi shrines, etc.). And it produced a thriving tradition of Persian philosophy, in particular the Ishraqi school which remains fairly vibrant, and Persian and Urdu poetry, etc., etc.
And btw, when most Muslims talk about modernists (i.e., the group that are NOT traditionalists) in Islam, they are not talking about me and it certainly not the Sufis. They are talking about the Salafi, the very group you try to identify with the true Islam.
As my response to the question about Islam and politics already ought to have revealed, I am not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination (perish the thought). I am just someone who has a better sense of the history and tradition of Islam (and arguably Christianity) than you have shown so far.
Finally, I am puzzled, since you say that you do not deal with minor groups and only the strong who actually have power and influence why it is that you wish to reduce Islam to the Salafi. The only country where they are arguably in control is Saudi Arabia, and even there there is tension and constant power struggle with and within the royal family and the urban elite (who are for the most part not sympathetic at all to the religious police in the kingdom…a wkend in Jeddah will clear that up for you). No other country in the Arabic speaking world is run by a government sympathetic to the Salafi. Or to move over to the Shi’a and Iran. You certainly have a kind of theocracy there, but one that certainly does not understand revelation the way you just defined it, nor do they think Islam has to be lived in Arabic (they in fact would scoff at the idea and are the bitter enemies of the Salafi), etc. etc. And not only have we ignored Turkey, but we haven’t dealt with the largest population of Muslims which is in Asia. They have their own modernist issues, but again within a minority of the populations. The major representatives of Islam in places like Malayasia are often more politically liberal than I am when it comes to things like the separation of politics and religion. The fact is that even in the current climate you are not describing the groups who are actually in power nor the people they represent, even if it is true that modernism has been ascendant and destructive in the 20th and 21st c. (so far).
So let’s be honest. You have singled out a group that has grown in influence due to its access to money, has been associated with anti-government violence both in “the West” and “the East”, but has little actual political power outside Saudi Arabia, makes everyone’s life miserable…and decided to call it Islam. [and just to be clear…I am actually being unfair to the Salafi here, because most of them are not involved in anti-state violence, though most of them would be supportive of the types of interpretation of fiqh that you mention.]
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Salaam/peace
Also , Shabe Barat is very popular here ; that is also not mentioned in Quran .
link: Celebrating the 15th Night of Sha`ban
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546098
Salaam/peace
ummm celebrating Prophet’s birthday could be an example . In my country ( Bangladesh) , some groups bring out processions , hold banners , give slogans etc. These are not found in Quran or Hadith.
Also , Shabe Barat is very popular here ; that is also not mentioned in Quran .
link: Celebrating the 15th Night of Sha`ban
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546098
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