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Peter_J
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I wasn’t going to say anything before, but now I feel that I must because this latest ^^ comment is over-the-top (in my humble opinion).
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
You’re entitled to your opinion. The original question was, who is most delighted with the divisions in Christianity. Since the Since the Catholic Church hasn’t separated from anyone, MY opinion is, all aiders and abettors are culpable. That has always and will always be my opinion.
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Peter_J
Guest
Thanks, I had figured that out for myself.
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GKC
Guest
Yes, some interpret it that way.I’ll give you my very simple, and very dogmatic (I am a Catholic after all
) take on it: Rome seeks to make reasonable accommodation for Anglicans who want, of their own accord, to join the Roman Communion; but many have interpreted it as an attempt to get Anglicans to join the Roman Communion.
The actualization of the Ordinariness, with the issuing of** Anglicanorum Coetibus **was much less occasioned by the years of discussions between the Traditional Anglican Communion, especially as led by Hepworth, or his representations, than it was by the 2009 visit of a couple of Church of England bishops to Rome, seeking a refuge for themselves and those lie them in the CoE, at the point in which the inevitability of females being raised to the episcopacy in the CoE was unmistakeable. That tipped the scales.
Unlike some Anglicans that I have heard express themselves on the subject, I have absolutely no problem with the Ordinariate. I am an observer.
GKC
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Peter_J
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I also think the Ordinariates have suffered from the occasional guilt-by-association, so to speak. I mean the scenario where someone hears a statement he/she disagrees with, from someone who’s really gung-ho about the Ordinariates, and then the hearer instinctively takes a disliking to the Ordinariates.
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GKC
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commenter
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The Ordinariates are bigger than they look. The number of priests already entered, or in the process of entering, is enormous in proportion to the number of laity, the only figures mentioned so far.
It will likely expand in the US. As the TEC moves farther toward %#@>{& each year, a new group of people will say “that does it, now they’ve gone TOO far”. Some will seek the Ordinariate.
ACNA on paper has extensive geographic coverage. But it’s a coalition, of very distinct parts, united for now under one powerful and spiritual Archbishop. Unfortunately there’s only one Duncan, and some major differences hard, maybe insurmountable, to accommodate.
The Continuum Churches have maintained doctrinal and practical orthodoxy, and I don’t minimize that achievement. They can (inside their churches) reflect prolife and traditional values on Holy Orders and Matrimony, just as Ordinariate parishes can. But the Ordinariate can when needed unite with a larger body to lift up the prolife and evangelistic message, both to individuals and into the public square, locally and nationally, in an increasingly hostile environment. I’m not sure how, or to what extent, the Continuum churches can do that.
To stretch Lewis’ Mere Christianity, the Continuum can indeed provide warm rooms off the main hall, where truth can be lived out by those who already have it. But the Ordinariate can share expenses and manpower with the Church in their city to provide the means to lift up the Cross and the standard of Life where it can be seen, and thus facilitate some coming into the large hall in the first place.
It will likely expand in the US. As the TEC moves farther toward %#@>{& each year, a new group of people will say “that does it, now they’ve gone TOO far”. Some will seek the Ordinariate.
ACNA on paper has extensive geographic coverage. But it’s a coalition, of very distinct parts, united for now under one powerful and spiritual Archbishop. Unfortunately there’s only one Duncan, and some major differences hard, maybe insurmountable, to accommodate.
The Continuum Churches have maintained doctrinal and practical orthodoxy, and I don’t minimize that achievement. They can (inside their churches) reflect prolife and traditional values on Holy Orders and Matrimony, just as Ordinariate parishes can. But the Ordinariate can when needed unite with a larger body to lift up the prolife and evangelistic message, both to individuals and into the public square, locally and nationally, in an increasingly hostile environment. I’m not sure how, or to what extent, the Continuum churches can do that.
To stretch Lewis’ Mere Christianity, the Continuum can indeed provide warm rooms off the main hall, where truth can be lived out by those who already have it. But the Ordinariate can share expenses and manpower with the Church in their city to provide the means to lift up the Cross and the standard of Life where it can be seen, and thus facilitate some coming into the large hall in the first place.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Can you clarify exactly what %#@>{& is? I am so interested in learning exactly where my Church is going towards.
And thank you for making your post “less annoying”
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DharmaBum
Guest
I can’t wrap my head around the process one goes through to think its acceptable to call an entire province of the Anglican Communion $&"@& (or whatever the exact symbols used). It’s not civil discourse on this type of thread, but has happened repeatedly.
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GKC
Guest
Let me know how fast the laity are following, into the Ordinariate, if that becomes known to you (seriously). That is, let me know when it actually looks as big as it is. For myself, experience suggests that the disaffected Episcopalian is something like the unicorn.
But I am certainly prepared to wait and see what happens, in time. As I was 4 years ago, when I was right in my supposition about what would happen with TAC and the ACA, with respect to the Ordinariate.
GKC
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Just a comment and then a question.
I don’t know the figures but my hunch is that the percentage of clergy is much higher than laity leaving the Anglican Church for Rome. Same among Lutherans. I read recently that Richard John Newhaus entered the Roman Catholic Church when the ELCA authorized gay priests.
My question is liturgical. Can anyone explain the ‘Exhortation’ and Decalogue at the start of the Holy Eucharist in the Book of Common Prayer? Is there historic precedence? Also the Confession of Sins between the Prayer of the Church and Offering/ Proper Prefaces.
I don’t know the figures but my hunch is that the percentage of clergy is much higher than laity leaving the Anglican Church for Rome. Same among Lutherans. I read recently that Richard John Newhaus entered the Roman Catholic Church when the ELCA authorized gay priests.
My question is liturgical. Can anyone explain the ‘Exhortation’ and Decalogue at the start of the Holy Eucharist in the Book of Common Prayer? Is there historic precedence? Also the Confession of Sins between the Prayer of the Church and Offering/ Proper Prefaces.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I guess it is acceptable behavior
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DharmaBum
Guest
Telling, at least.
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GKC
Guest
As I wrote (and deleted, so you don’t know it) from my last post, it is almost certain that a high percentage of clergy over laity are going to depart in cases like this. Clergy seem to have some sort of special sensitivity to the doctrinal issues.
AFAIK, the recitation of the Decalogue (monthly at least), or the Summary of the Law, was introduced in the 1552 BCP. The Confession and Absolution dates from the 1549. So, basically, the precedence is from the origin of the distinct Anglican liturgy. I am not enough of a liturgist to say further.
GKC
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aidanbradypop
Guest
In the Anglican Use?
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GKC
Guest
I certainly have my opinions of the gracious Katherine, and her coterie. As also the trend/innovations visible in the fabirc of TEC. But I don’t often express them, pointedly.
But I still have them.
GKC
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GKC
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GKC
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Certainly, opinions are ubiquitous, as with other human attributes. My opinion, say, of the gracious Katherine is uncharitable, but I can imagine it working into a discussion.Likewise the Papacy. In fact, the latter occasionally has.
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Novocastrian
Guest
I might be wrong (don’t have documents with me at the moment), but I think the position of the Confession and Absolution actually predates the Prayer Book by a year or two. The original liturgical reform simply inserted a vernacular rite for preparation before communion, and then reception of the Sacrament, into the Latin Mass immediately after the priest’s communion. I think the current order is a relic of that embryonic stage of the reform.
We’ll have to check to see if I’m remembering that correctly though!
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