Ask an Anglican/Episcopalian

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I might be wrong (don’t have documents with me at the moment), but I think the position of the Confession and Absolution actually predates the Prayer Book by a year or two. The original liturgical reform simply inserted a vernacular rite for preparation before communion, and then reception of the Sacrament, into the Latin Mass immediately after the priest’s communion. I think the current order is a relic of that embryonic stage of the reform.

We’ll have to check to see if I’m remembering that correctly though!
If you can locate and convey the info, I stand able to learn something.

Learning things is always good.

GKC

Added:, Inspired, I looked at the Oxford AMERICAN PRAYER BOOK COMMENTARY. it says, of the Decalogue, that Cranmer might have had a number of reasons for replacing the 9-fold* Kyrie* with the Commandments: that it represented one of the 3 things Christians needed constantly before them (along with the Creed and the Pater Noster) and that he had before him some Lutheran liturgical examples, using the Decalogue. Which might be behind EvangelCatholics question.

GKC
 
To say the Contiuum, or to say Continuing Anglicans, is to speak of the same people. Two names for one group.

ACNA is not in that group, under either name. It aspires to be in the Anglican Communion, and is, in fact, in communion with some African jurisdictions thereof. ACNA is not a member of the Continuing Anglicans/Continuum. Which latter terms are the same thing.

But if I had time, I could relate a little history of the Continuum/Continuing Anglicans, that might confuse you further.

But no time.

GKC
Thanks for the clarification. I was checking it up online but I think there could be some fudging unless I am reading the wrong places.
 
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Communion_1548.htm

The Proclamation at the beginning is such a brilliant example of the prose of the Supremacy. Elegant, humanistic, menacing, moralising. Constant repetition of the idea of quietness. Presumably the direct ancestor of the Preface to the Prayer Book.
I thank you. And this saves me from adding what I found on the subject in the OXFORD COMMENTARY that I am about to mention in the edited post, above.

GKC
 
The Ordinariates are bigger than they look. The number of priests already entered, or in the process of entering, is enormous in proportion to the number of laity, the only figures mentioned so far.

It will likely expand in the US. As the TEC moves farther toward %#@>{& each year, a new group of people will say “that does it, now they’ve gone TOO far”. Some will seek the Ordinariate.

ACNA on paper has extensive geographic coverage. But it’s a coalition, of very distinct parts, united for now under one powerful and spiritual Archbishop. Unfortunately there’s only one Duncan, and some major differences hard, maybe insurmountable, to accommodate.

The Continuum Churches have maintained doctrinal and practical orthodoxy, and I don’t minimize that achievement. They can (inside their churches) reflect prolife and traditional values on Holy Orders and Matrimony, just as Ordinariate parishes can. But the Ordinariate can when needed unite with a larger body to lift up the prolife and evangelistic message, both to individuals and into the public square, locally and nationally, in an increasingly hostile environment. I’m not sure how, or to what extent, the Continuum churches can do that.

To stretch Lewis’ Mere Christianity, the Continuum can indeed provide warm rooms off the main hall, where truth can be lived out by those who already have it. But the Ordinariate can share expenses and manpower with the Church in their city to provide the means to lift up the Cross and the standard of Life where it can be seen, and thus facilitate some coming into the large hall in the first place.
Ok, ok, so my comment in paragraph 2 was over-the-top abrasive, even by my standards. Apology offered. Furthermore, I broke a reasonable rule of this thread, specifically designed as a place where Anglicanish folk will answer questions from others who know little, where uninformed cradle papists can be properly instructed, as long as they leave behind their slingshots, rack, sophistry, and other inquisitorial machines. Since I broke the rules of even basic courtesy in paragraph 2, you have every right to ignore what I wrote in my last 2 paragraphs. (I really have enjoyed this thread).

Commenter
 
Ok, ok, so my comment in paragraph 2 was over-the-top abrasive, even by my standards. Apology offered. Furthermore, I broke a reasonable rule of this thread, specifically designed as a place where Anglicanish folk will answer questions from others who know little, where uninformed cradle papists can be properly instructed, as long as they leave behind their slingshots, rack, sophistry, and other inquisitorial machines. Since I broke the rules of even basic courtesy in paragraph 2, you have every right to ignore what I wrote in my last 2 paragraphs. (I really have enjoyed this thread).

Commenter
Thank you for being so gracious. We all get abrasive here! 🙂
 
Just a comment and then a question.

I don’t know the figures but my hunch is that the percentage of clergy is much higher than laity leaving the Anglican Church for Rome. Same among Lutherans. I read recently that Richard John Newhaus entered the Roman Catholic Church when the ELCA authorized gay priests.
Walsingham: 57 priests for 1000 members as of last Easter. Not a bad ratio: I know of many dioceses who will give their left hand for that kind of ratio.

Lutherans? Is there already a Lutheran Ordinariate? I thought it was just an offer by Vatican. Personally, I think a Lutheran Ordinriate makes more sense as their liturgy is sufficiently different.

Most of the Walsingham people already celebrate mass using the Catholic Order of Mass which was almost identical to the Catholic parish down the road. So, having an Ordinariate for them is probably needed as a comfort thing. Which means the Ordinariate should really be a temporary set up until these people are comfortable enough to join with the rest of the Latin Catholic parish where they are.

Otherwise (this is probably harsh), they should leave their bags unpacked since we already have it on good empirical evidence that those who leave their mother communion have a greater than average change of continuing their fissiparous ways (I like this word that GKC taught us).
 
Oh dear, I’m going to have a preliminary bash at this while GKC catches up on his housework, or whatever it is he’s doing. It will be rather un-nuanced, and probably blatantly incorrect, but anyway GKC can put me right when he has time.

In the 70s a number of congregations in North America separated from the Episcopal Church, largely over questions of liturgy and also and especially the ordination of women. They claimed to be “continuing” traditional Anglicanism. That’s GKC’s mob.

Twenty or so years later there was a further load of separations, this time largely to do with social teaching, including attitudes to homosexuality. That lot included the congregations that came together as ACNA.

More have followed, here and there. PB Schori is even now reaching for the fire-lighters.

I shall now move down to the air raid shelter in anticipation of GKC’s reaction to my ignorance.
Understood, so now there is a third wave.
 
Ok, ok, so my comment in paragraph 2 was over-the-top abrasive, even by my standards. Apology offered. Furthermore, I broke a reasonable rule of this thread, specifically designed as a place where Anglicanish folk will answer questions from others who know little, where uninformed cradle papists can be properly instructed, as long as they leave behind their slingshots, rack, sophistry, and other inquisitorial machines. Since I broke the rules of even basic courtesy in paragraph 2, you have every right to ignore what I wrote in my last 2 paragraphs. (I really have enjoyed this thread).

Commenter
I don’t find your comments over the top, particularly. And not merely because my own opinion of TEC is what it is. I just don’t react to such things.If I did, posting as any sort of Anglican on RC boards would be an exercise in taking offense. Sometimes.

GKC
 
Walsingham: 57 priests for 1000 members as of last Easter. Not a bad ratio: I know of many dioceses who will give their left hand for that kind of ratio.

Lutherans? Is there already a Lutheran Ordinariate? I thought it was just an offer by Vatican. Personally, I think a Lutheran Ordinriate makes more sense as their liturgy is sufficiently different.

Most of the Walsingham people already celebrate mass using the Catholic Order of Mass which was almost identical to the Catholic parish down the road. So, having an Ordinariate for them is probably needed as a comfort thing. Which means the Ordinariate should really be a temporary set up until these people are comfortable enough to join with the rest of the Latin Catholic parish where they are.

Otherwise (this is probably harsh), they should leave their bags unpacked since we already have it on good empirical evidence that those who leave their mother communion have a greater than average change of continuing their fissiparous ways (I like this word that GKC taught us).
I like knowing the word. But living its essence is a little trying.

GKC
 
Walsingham: 57 priests for 1000 members as of last Easter.
Yikes!
Lutherans? Is there already a Lutheran Ordinariate? I thought it was just an offer by Vatican. Personally, I think a Lutheran Ordinriate makes more sense as their liturgy is sufficiently different.
ZENIT: Is a solution similar to the Anglicanorum coetibus for Anglicans possible for Evangelical Christians?

Cardinal Koch: Anglicanorum coetibus was not an initiative of Rome, but came from the Anglican Church. The Holy Father then sought a solution and, in my opinion, found a very broad solution, in which the Anglicans’ ecclesial and liturgical traditions were taken into ample consideration. If similar desires are expressed by the Lutherans, then we will have to reflect on them. However, the initiative is up to the Lutherans.
 
I don’t find your comments over the top, particularly. And not merely because my own opinion of TEC is what it is. I just don’t react to such things.If I did, posting as any sort of Anglican on RC boards would be an exercise in taking offense. Sometimes.

GKC
I’ll bet that discourse on web discussion forums would be a lot different if every protestant poster spent a little time on a Catholic forum, and vice versa. (Likewise with respect to the Orthodox.)
 
I’ll bet that discourse on web discussion forums would be a lot different if every protestant poster spent a little time on a Catholic forum, and vice versa. (Likewise with respect to the Orthodox.)
Could be.

Me, I’m a Catholic, in the Anglican tradition, posting on a couple of RC boards. My original impetus, back around 12 years ago, was to explain some basic Anglicanisms to a bunch of nice but befuddled RCs. Contarini was the first poster to reply to me.

GKC
 
Yikes!

ZENIT: Is a solution similar to the Anglicanorum coetibus for Anglicans possible for Evangelical Christians?

Cardinal Koch: Anglicanorum coetibus was not an initiative of Rome, but came from the Anglican Church. The Holy Father then sought a solution and, in my opinion, found a very broad solution, in which the Anglicans’ ecclesial and liturgical traditions were taken into ample consideration. If similar desires are expressed by the Lutherans, then we will have to reflect on them. However, the initiative is up to the Lutherans.
Some here may remember the poster who was a bishop in the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. Who predicted, a couple of years ago, that a Lutheran ordinariate analog was in the works (IIRC). He is now, I believe, a RC layman.

GKC
 
I’ll bet that discourse on web discussion forums would be a lot different if every protestant poster spent a little time on a Catholic forum, and vice versa. (Likewise with respect to the Orthodox.)
Tread with care. Have you tried the similar-looking Christian Forum? Our posters are divine gentlement next to theirs. Here is an extract from their rules. It scares me that they need to have these rules and define who is a Christian. After a few posts I stopped as all I got were people who wanted to debate and not learn & understand.

I couldn’t get onto the Orthodox discussion group. I suspect their server and my laptop are not in communion.
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Some here may remember the poster who was a bishop in the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. Who predicted, a couple of years ago, that a Lutheran ordinariate analog was in the works (IIRC). He is now, I believe, a RC layman.

GKC
I wonder if the Anglicans/ Episcopalians who officially dialogue with Roman Catholics are like their counterparts in Lutheranism? Ecumenical work seems to be almost entirely the prerogative of the most “liberal” [for lack of a better word] churches in the Lutheran communion. The most catholic in worship and ecclesiastical polity are generally the most humanistic Lutherans .
 
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