Ask an atheist a few questions.

[MH84]

No, I was raised to be Catholic. I was Catholic until about two years ago, when I rejected the faith on the grounds that a loving, caring, fatherly person ought to be in close contact with his children.

Exalt, how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus is not the Son of God? I mean its one thing to say that you don’t feel you have a relationship with God, its another to turn around and say that the Gospels are false. Do you no longer believe the Gospels are true?

 

[MH84]

Exalt, Im not sure if you are male or female.

But I also want to ask, even though you say you are homosexual, don’t you still think that homosexual acts are unnatural?

We all have temptations, but we still need to acknowledge that giving in to them may be wrong. For example, if I had the desire to pull all my hair out, I would be alarmed because of the damage it would do to myself. So whether or not I want to doesnt alter the fact that doing it would be wrong.

 

[BlaineTog]

That assumes I believe in God… But yes, one of the reasons I don’t believe in God is because I don’t find the Church’s rejection of homosexuality to be reasonable. And yes, I think a part of that is because I do want to have a relationship with another man and don’t see anything wrong with it.

What part of Catholic sexual theology do you find invalid, or on what grounds do you consider some/all of its premises unsound (in a specific sense; obviously if you don’t believe in the soul or God then the whole thing won’t mean anything to you, but since you we don’t want to get circular here, which premise do you disagree with for third-party reasons)?

Catholicism said God was like that today, but I found that God was just as likely to answer a prayer as my cat.

Actually, he’s probably more likely to answer your cat’s prayers in the affirmative since you cat is far less likely to wish for something he shouldn’t want or have.

 

[Exalt]

From your explanation, it seems that you have based your athiesm on lack of proof that god loves you and hears your prayers. Because of the lack of answered prayers and feelings of love, you have not simply chosen to reject serving god, you have rejected the idea that there is a god at all. This brings up more questions.

You’re basically right. I think it rules out a personal, loving God. And that rules out Christianity, many forms of Hinduism, Judaism and Islam, at least. I suppose I could look into Buddhism maybe.

Why have you come to the conclusion, that if there is a god, that he must be a loving, caring, fatherly kind of god? Why do you believe a god must hear and answer your prayers? Isn’t it possible that a divine creator might be an indifferent god?

I suppose it is possible that a divine creator made the universe, and he might be indifferent. But why should I care? What meaning would there be if I suddenly started believing in an indifferent creator-god?

It seems strange that you would reject the idea of a divine being simply because he doesn’t fit the stereo-typical Christian idea of God.

Sorry, I have more questions.

If you had a spiritual-like experience, where you felt the presence of God, and from this experience you came to believe that God is loving, caring, fatherly god, do you think that you would accept the faith?

To preface my answers, I *have *had those experiences before. In teen retreat-type experiences. With lots of emotional music and plays and that type of stuff. People can feel all sorts of things given certian conditions, but that doesn’t mean it’s from God. They probably could have made me think those feelings came from something else, but in reality, they probably just came from me.

The human imagination is an extremely powerful thing.

 

[Exalt]

Exalt, how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus is not the Son of God?

I don’t really know how to answer that. It wasn’t how I became Christian to begin with. I believed the apologetics about it *after *I believed that Jesus was God. So I looked for reasons to believe it.

I suppose it’s like me asking you “How did you come to the conclusion that Mohammed was *not *God’s final prophet?” You probably havn’t thought about it, but it’s something that would take *alot *of evidence.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I mean its one thing to say that you don’t feel you have a relationship with God, its another to turn around and say that the Gospels are false. Do you no longer believe the Gospels are true?

I don’t think they’re true. I don’t really know *what *to think about them. But two thousand year old writings arn’t really enough to convince me that a loving, personal, fatherly God sent his only son to be tortured and die so that he could forgive people. So I guess I don’t believe they’re true.

 

[Exalt]

Exalt, Im not sure if you are male or female.

I am male.

But I also want to ask, even though you say you are homosexual, don’t you still think that homosexual acts are unnatural?

Let me preface my response by saying that “natural” and “unnatural” have many different meanings to many different people. I’ll try to address the many different reasons.

Well, I don’t think they’re repulsive, obviously, which is how some people use the term “unnatural”.

I don’t think it’s against God’s plan, because I don’t believe in God. “Against God’s plan for sexuality” is another way people use the term “unnatural”

I do, however, think it’s not obviously in line with strict laws of natural selection. Reproduction is facilitated by sexual attraction to the opposite sex. And homosexuals generally don’t choose to engage in relations with the opposite sex, and thus don’t continue their genetic line. In that very strict sense, you might say I think they are “unnatural.” (However, I do think that homosexuality *in other animals *does serve an evolutionary purpose - social bonding. Like in dolphins. But those dolphins also engage in sexual relations with the opposite sex, and have special organs to better facilitate homosexual sexual contact.)

And finally, I do feel homosexuality, at least within me, is “natural.” I mean that it *feels *natural. It doesn’t feel like a mental abberation or problem, like depression or anxiety or mania - or a substance abuse problem. It doesn’t feel wrong. In that sense, I don’t think homosexuality feels “unnatural.”

We all have temptations, but we still need to acknowledge that giving in to them may be wrong. For example, if I had the desire to pull all my hair out, I would be alarmed because of the damage it would do to myself. So whether or not I want to doesnt alter the fact that doing it would be wrong.

I agree.

 

[Exalt]

What part of Catholic sexual theology do you find invalid, or on what grounds do you consider some/all of its premises unsound (in a specific sense; obviously if you don’t believe in the soul or God then the whole thing won’t mean anything to you, but since you we don’t want to get circular here, which premise do you disagree with for third-party reasons)?

I’m kind of confused by this question. I suppose Catholic theology is very much grounded on the ideas of God, which I don’t believe in. So there’s a disagreement there. I don’t like the Church’s teaching on contraception. I think it’s quite reckless to continually say no to birth control given the massive population we have already - and the massive one we’re looking at if we continue to reproduce.

Actually, he’s probably more likely to answer your cat’s prayers in the affirmative since you cat is far less likely to wish for something he shouldn’t want or have.

I mean, if I prayed to my cat, my cat is more likely to answer than if I were to pray to God.

 

[justinthemartyr]

You state

" if I were to pray to my cat, my cat is more likely to answer my prayer than God"

This statement makes no sense if you do not believe in God and therefore have not prayed, truly prayed to God.

Someone once said that

“the only scoffers at prayer, are the one’s who have not tried it enough”

Without actually giving prayer a chance and praying and looking for the actual result of that prayer, you have no frame of reference.

What you are saying is that if you were trapped in a forest with a tree fallen on your leg and you cannot get out, and no one is within many many miles of you, that you would be more likely to ask your cat, who is at home and totally unaware of your present circumstances, to help you, and that your cat would somehow pick up the phone and call for help for you. This is truly impossible. First off, a cat, even if you were in your home with it, could not help you, not in any way, except the possibility that you might kill your cat and eat it for nourishment until help arrived. this fact is because God gave us reign over animals.

Secondly, your cat cannot understand your needs. Yes, your cat may be somewhat kind at times and even seem loving, but it is only the insticts of that cat which make it so. Animals only work on instinct, not intillect as we have, where we can choose whom we love. you could give that cat to ANYONE and it would behave in the same manner when treated similarly as you treat it. Humans are far different from this since they can choose whom they love, and this love is entirely different from the “love” you deem that your cat has. If your cat loved you in the same way as a human can, you would try to marry your cat and not need a man for anything. It is intuitive to want to be with another human being because a cat cannot fulfil the needs of a human in the truest sense. You will most likely find that no man(or woman) can truly fill all your innermost needs, that will prove itself over time. this is where God comes into the picture.
I like to call it the “option reduction process”. After you have found everything on this earth wanting, (money, sex, men, women, cats, cars, nature) you will still have this most inexhaustible desire for something deeper and your innermost being will long for it. Nothing else will quench this thirst for something more, something real, and not just human in nature, something far beyond that, which you cannot explain.

This was my experience. Everything else in the options was temporal at best, only God gave me enduring love, the kind of love that if I had to be in an 8x8 cell by myself the rest of my life, it would be okay.

peace to you, Justin

 

[Bubble]

You’re basically right. I think it rules out a personal, loving God. And that rules out Christianity, many forms of Hinduism, Judaism and Islam, at least. I suppose I could look into Buddhism maybe.

I suppose it is possible that a divine creator made the universe, and he might be indifferent. But why should I care? What meaning would there be if I suddenly started believing in an indifferent creator-god?

To preface my answers, I *have *had those experiences before. In teen retreat-type experiences. With lots of emotional music and plays and that type of stuff. People can feel all sorts of things given certian conditions, but that doesn’t mean it’s from God. They probably could have made me think those feelings came from something else, but in reality, they probably just came from me.

The human imagination is an extremely powerful thing.

You said, I suppose it is possible that a divine creator made the universe, and he might be indifferent. But why should I care? What meaning would there be if I suddenly started believing in an indifferent creator-god?

Perhaps you don’t care, but the reason why you have rejected the idea of god matters very much in such a discussion.

Reason may play a part of that, but clearly emotionalism is the catalyst behind your inability to believe. You don’t “feel” the love. You now doubt the “feelings” of love you once experienced. You once thought you knew god because of an “emotional” response to music and/or other factors. Now, you reject him out of an emotional response–because you no longer “feel” anything.

Look back, did you begin to lose that loving feeling around the same time you began to explore your homo-sexuality?

 

[teadough]

Correct.

But not all atheists believe that there is no God and the belief that there is no God is also not a lifestyle.

No, Atheist have re-defined the definition of "belief"and “faith” and now play that same card at the beginning of any sort of discussion.

If a person actually lacked the belief in something they would have absolutely no reason to even try and defend a particular stance on any given subject. That same person would not even talk about “it”. There would be no reason for someone to even bring “it” up much less defend how they feel/believe towards “it” because,supposedly, “it” does not exist.

 

[BlaineTog]

I’m kind of confused by this question. I suppose Catholic theology is very much grounded on the ideas of God, which I don’t believe in. So there’s a disagreement there. I don’t like the Church’s teaching on contraception. I think it’s quite reckless to continually say no to birth control given the massive population we have already - and the massive one we’re looking at if we continue to reproduce.

When you talk like this, though, it makes me think you just haven’t looked in to why Catholics don’t believe in contraception and homosexuality. Disagreeing on the practical level is pretty irrelevant, frankly, when we’re talking about whether something is wrong or not. Practically speaking, the injunction not to murder can be pretty irritating at times (and certainly doesn’t help with population control), yet it is wrong.

I mean, if I prayed to my cat, my cat is more likely to answer than if I were to pray to God.

All prayers get answered. However, not all prayers get answered “Yes.” Given how foolish humans are, I suspect most prayers get answered “No,” since we pray for stupid things that we shouldn’t have or want.

 

[Skavau]

teadough:

No, Atheist have re-defined the definition of "belief"and “faith” and now play that same card at the beginning of any sort of discussion.

One word: nonsense.

teadough:

If a person actually lacked the belief in something they would have absolutely no reason to even try and defend a particular stance on any given subject.

False. I lack belief in God and yet I feel compelled to defend my standpoint.

 

[Valke2]

I disagree. If a person doesn’t believe in God, and they see all these people believing in something that they know doesn’t exist. They might feel like discussing the topic.

If my neighborhs all started talking to imaginary rabbits, I might feel compelled to discuss the subject with them.

 

[Righteousone]

I disagree. If a person doesn’t believe in God, and they see all these people believing in something that they know doesn’t exist. They might feel like discussing the topic.

If my neighborhs all started talking to imaginary rabbits, I might feel compelled to discuss the subject with them.

Really? Do you mean Imaginary rabbis…

 

[Aleii]

You state

" if I were to pray to my cat, my cat is more likely to answer my prayer than God"

This statement makes no sense if you do not believe in God and therefore have not prayed, truly prayed to God.

Someone once said that

“the only scoffers at prayer, are the one’s who have not tried it enough”

Without actually giving prayer a chance and praying and looking for the actual result of that prayer, you have no frame of reference.

There are many instances of faithfully religious eventually becoming atheist/agnostic. Its frustrating when people assume that no atheist has given prayer a “hearty chance”. Some have gone to lengths that far exceed that of the average religious.

 

[Exalt]

You state

" if I were to pray to my cat, my cat is more likely to answer my prayer than God"

This statement makes no sense if you do not believe in God and therefore have not prayed, truly prayed to God.

I was a pretty hardcore Catholic for the first 19 years or so of my life. I prayed exactly like I was supposed to. (I’m 21 now, by the way)

I like to call it the “option reduction process”. After you have found everything on this earth wanting, (money, sex, men, women, cats, cars, nature) you will still have this most inexhaustible desire for something deeper and your innermost being will long for it. Nothing else will quench this thirst for something more, something real, and not just human in nature, something far beyond that, which you cannot explain.

Maybe that turns out to be true - but there’s no reason to think that just because you want something more that that-which-you-want-more actually exists.

 

[Exalt]

You said, I suppose it is possible that a divine creator made the universe, and he might be indifferent. But why should I care? What meaning would there be if I suddenly started believing in an indifferent creator-god?

Perhaps you don’t care, but the reason why you have rejected the idea of god matters very much in such a discussion.

Reason may play a part of that, but clearly emotionalism is the catalyst behind your inability to believe. You don’t “feel” the love. You now doubt the “feelings” of love you once experienced. You once thought you knew god because of an “emotional” response to music and/or other factors. Now, you reject him out of an emotional response–because you no longer “feel” anything.

Look back, did you begin to lose that loving feeling around the same time you began to explore your homo-sexuality?

I certianly recognize the emotional part of why I became an atheist, but it is certianly a mistake to think that it was the *entire *reason. I also think it is a misunderstanding to think that if I were to “feel” God again, that I would become a theist again. My problems with the idea of a fatherly, personal God are a bit different than you seem to think.

If God were a fatherly, personal God, he would communicate in ways that gave little doubt as to his existence. A good father doesn’t hide himself from his kids and only give little scraps of love every now and then. It’s been two thousand years since the supposed Son of God came and visited some people - and also been 18 or 19 *centuries *since his first couple of generations disciples said he would return. It’s been 1400 years since the supposed final Prophet communicated God’s will personally. It’s been over 3000 years since that firey bush starting talking to Moses - and God gave those “chosen people” the worst treatment of all those who claim him as father.

If God exists, he pretty much has left us out in the cold, with no communication for (depending on what religion you’re talking about) two thousand years. All we get are little scraps of private revalations - a marian apparation here, a weeping statue there. Tiny little morsels of communication that didn’t even come from the Big Man himself! And look how Catholics, and others, *flock *to those sightings. But in reality, if God were really a *personal, loving *God he would give those revaltions to everyone. It shouldn’t be such a rare, cherished thing - like a child from divorced parents recieving a short, fleeting letter from a deadbeat dad and cherishing it. If all that dad can do is send letters every now and then - he’s a pretty terrible father. And I don’t see how God can get out of that requirement for being called “personal” or “fatherly”.

He could be an indifferent creator that just started the universe. But I think I have discussed that in another post.

Regarding your actual question, homosexuality has been part of my identity since puberty (and before that, even, the feelings were there). I still identified myself as “homosexual” before and after I had those intense, teen retreat, music-and-candles-inspired God-feelings.

 

[Exalt]

No, Atheist have re-defined the definition of "belief"and “faith” and now play that same card at the beginning of any sort of discussion.

If a person actually lacked the belief in something they would have absolutely no reason to even try and defend a particular stance on any given subject. That same person would not even talk about “it”. There would be no reason for someone to even bring “it” up much less defend how they feel/believe towards “it” because,supposedly, “it” does not exist.

~90% of Americans believe in God. It’s extremely important to American society (though perhaps less important in Europe and some other countries). It’s the belief of my parents and most of my friends. It’s been the basis of some laws. You’re supposed to claim a belief in God when you say the Pledge of Allegience. It’s on our currency and in our courthouses. It used to be taught to children in public schools.

It’s very much in the life of the United States. Even though I don’t believe in God, it doesn’t mean I don’t think about belief-in-God, and it’s role in our society.

 

[Exalt]

When you talk like this, though, it makes me think you just haven’t looked in to why Catholics don’t believe in contraception and homosexuality. Disagreeing on the practical level is pretty irrelevant, frankly, when we’re talking about whether something is wrong or not. Practically speaking, the injunction not to murder can be pretty irritating at times (and certainly doesn’t help with population control), yet it is wrong.

I’m very much aware of why Catholics don’t believe contraception and homosexuality isn’t good.

All prayers get answered. However, not all prayers get answered “Yes.” Given how foolish humans are, I suspect most prayers get answered “No,” since we pray for stupid things that we shouldn’t have or want.

I’m not talking about prayers asking for a new corvette or even for my friend with sickle-cell not to die.

I’m talking about prayers of communication. “Talking” to God and trying to listen for a response. That never comes. And if that’s a stupid prayer, then there’s even another reason not to believe in your version of the Catholic faith at least.

 

[Exalt]

There are many instances of faithfully religious eventually becoming atheist/agnostic. Its frustrating when people assume that no atheist has given prayer a “hearty chance”. Some have gone to lengths that far exceed that of the average religious.

*Exactly. *I completely agree with this.