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Righteousone
Guest
God gives you one more chance when you die. You either reject him or accept him.
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Skavau
Guest
That’s nice.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
Ohhhhh, I see. you are special and want God to audibly speak to you.
lol
So as we can see, this is your perception of the situation and not reality at all.
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Aleii
Guest
Personally, I have seen this challenge issued many times, and have never seen one person refuse to do it because they were scared, so I’m surprised to hear you say the exact opposite of my experiences.
Look at this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219592
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Exalt
Guest
Probably ask him something like “are you a good God?” or “what religion should I follow, if any?” Something like that.
It may not be long when compared to, say, the age of the earth itself. But it’s pretty long when you’re talking about relationships. Or even when you’re talking about the length of recorded history.
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Exalt
Guest
It’s partly because of how ridiculous that idea is to you (and most Christians) that I don’t believe in a personal God.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
then where would be the “faith” in the relationship? God already knows you more deeply than anyone ever would wish to, right down to the depest secret you have.
God spoke audibly to several people throughout the ages, but that is not the norm, that is the exception.
If you place unrealistic expectations and tests upon God, then you are being just that, unrealistic.
You have faith in fallible people, yet decide that since you want to evidently live a way of life not in accord with the one God calls us to, you will therefore justify yourself by criticizing the one who allows you to live and breathe. When the pain is great enough, you will certainly find yourself in an awkward position, one where God is the only place left to go.
If you choose to go on to the nitter end denying god for such a childish(yes, childish) reason, then you will get just what you have asked for. To accept and obey and receive the love and mercy of God in this life is to do the same in the life hereafter. to deny it, is to deny that in the afterlife and end up in a place far worse than anyplace on this earth has to offer.
Imagine a place worse than the concentration camps, then you may have a slight glimpse of what is to come for those who ask for it.
I myself do not intend on buying a ticket to that destination, but it is your trip, you make the plans and God will provide a one way ticket for whatever destination you choose. I pray that your pain is great enough.
peace, justin
God spoke audibly to several people throughout the ages, but that is not the norm, that is the exception.
If you place unrealistic expectations and tests upon God, then you are being just that, unrealistic.
You have faith in fallible people, yet decide that since you want to evidently live a way of life not in accord with the one God calls us to, you will therefore justify yourself by criticizing the one who allows you to live and breathe. When the pain is great enough, you will certainly find yourself in an awkward position, one where God is the only place left to go.
If you choose to go on to the nitter end denying god for such a childish(yes, childish) reason, then you will get just what you have asked for. To accept and obey and receive the love and mercy of God in this life is to do the same in the life hereafter. to deny it, is to deny that in the afterlife and end up in a place far worse than anyplace on this earth has to offer.
Imagine a place worse than the concentration camps, then you may have a slight glimpse of what is to come for those who ask for it.
I myself do not intend on buying a ticket to that destination, but it is your trip, you make the plans and God will provide a one way ticket for whatever destination you choose. I pray that your pain is great enough.
peace, justin
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BlaineTog
Guest
No, it’s pretty much just the obvious: God has no obligations to us. Everything we have is completelly a gift from him. He doesn’t owe us our existence, and now that we exist, he doesn’t have to give us eternal happiness and joy.
Though this brings up an interesting tangent: where do obligations come from if God doesn’t exist?
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Exalt
Guest
“Faith” as it seems to sometimes mean - belief in God (and a particular *type *of God who advocates a particular religion) even though the evidence is (at best) ambivalent and (at worst) contradictory - is something I don’t value.
“Faith” as it sometimes means, though, I quite support. Like faith that my parents will help me when I need them, and vice versa. That kind of faith seems quite alright. “Faith” as a synonym for “I believe that such-and-such exists” is something I don’t really value.
shrug The parameters were set by Jesus, not me. God’s personal. God’s loving. God will answer your prayers. I, and billions of others, ask for a simple, clear communication. God doesn’t answer.
Contradition. A contradiction that eventually led me to a lack of theism.
Meh. I’d change my entire lifestyle if God would communicate with me in a clear way, like I’ve talked about earlier.
Scaring me with hell. If that’s *really *God’s way of making people love him…well, I don’t know if that’s a God I want to believe in.
On the other hand, when I was a Christian, I understood Hell as a place people went who totally rejected the love of God consciously and in full knowledge - who couldn’t enjoy the love of heaven anyway and chose hell over it.
Let me make one thing clear - if God really does exist and does actually love me, I’d bow down and worship him. Maybe my brain really is too limited and can’t see some sort of evidence that would prove me wrong. That sets me apart from the kind of people I talk about above.
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Exalt
Guest
I don’t think that’s obvious at all. I think my explaination is far more plausible. But that’s why I’m an atheist, of course.
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Nan_S
Guest
It would seem that you didn’t hear God’s voice because you wanted to have your cake and eat it too. You wanted to hear that there was really no problem with homosexuality and the homosexual lifestyle. But God didn’t affirm that to you, so you listened instead to people who validated your desires and finally God’s voice was drowned out from your ears.
In the Gospels God speaks aloud for all to hear Him three times. The first time is at the baptism of Jesus; the repentant sinners who are there to be baptized themselves have no trouble understanding God’s words. The second time is at the Transfiguration; Peter, James, and John are present and hear God’s voice unmistakably.
But the third time God speaks the reaction of the people who hear His voice is quite different. The time is right after Jesus has raised Lazarus and entered Jerusalem greeted by crowds waving palm branches. Yet this crowd still has skeptics amongst them who believe God’s voice is not a voice at all, but merely ordinary background noise.
John 12:27-37 Jesus proclaimed: “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd standing by heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not for mine. Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” He said this to show by what death he was to die. The crowd answered him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains for ever. How can you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?” Jesus said to them, “The light is with you for a little longer. Walk while you have the light, lest the darkness overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said this, he departed and hid himself from them. Although he had performed so many signs in their presence they did not believe in him.
It would appear that you, too, having not gotten the message you wished to hear, have relegated God’s voice to mere background noise. And if you ever did hear the voice clearly, having already decided not to listen, you would probably be like the skeptics surrounding Jesus who found all his signs and miracles to be insufficient as well.
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Exalt
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Incorrect!
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Valke2
Guest
What did Jesus say? In my bible at least God speaks to an entire people and when he speaks to individuals He clearly states I am the Lord, or similar words. So what did Jesus say in those instances and what did the people say to indicate they believed he was God?
Hardly an announcement of Godhood. Quite the contrary.
No announcement of Godhood here. And the people don’t seem to believe they hear God speaking (and if they did, they didn’t hear it from Jesus).
You are quoting a message that you interepet as proving Jesus is God or that people heard God and understood. But this is not clear by the words. And in any event, you are quoting scripture to someone who believes that it is fiction and not an eyewitness account or divine word, so what is the point?
Given what we know and are learning about the Hebrew Bible from modern biblical scholars and how it was likely written, and given that Christianity has chosen to spend an inordinate amount of time proving Jesus through the Hebrew Bible, perhaps one needs to first believe in God in order to use the scriptures as a tool to better apprehend Him. Instead of using the scriptures to find belief in God.
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BlaineTog
Guest
Your explanation has nothing to do with what I posted, though.
But seriously, why would God have obligations towards us? And where do obligations come from in an atheistic world view?
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Exalt
Guest
You don’t just adopt a dog and then don’t feed it. You don’t just have a child and don’t play with it. You don’t marry a woman and don’t kiss her.
God, supposedly, created *all *those things. He has obligations to all of them, because it’s the decent thing to do.
Obligations - like, say, a dog to it’s owner - come from the promise (implict or otherwise) the owner gave when he adopted it.
Human-to-human obligations are a bit trickier. There’s a whole branch of science devoted to looking at human interactions and a whole brack dedicated to figuring out *why *that’s so. I don’t pretend to know why, but I see no reason to think it’s supernatural in origin, if that’s what you’re thinking about.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
God does answer prayers, just not the way you want Him to. I do not know anyone who has successfully placed demands upon an authority figure, not even their parents. The results are not good.
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Righteousone
Guest
God has no obligations to anyone or anything.
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BlaineTog
Guest
Why would God be subject to “decency,” as if “decency” were something outside of him? God does the decent thing because it is good, which is part of his nature, but he isn’t obligated to be good any more than I am obligated to like posting on the internet. It isn’t a matter of obligations or responsibilities, it’s just something I do. Obligations always come from without, from something greater than yourself, like “common decency,” but there’s nothing greater than God, so to speak of “obligations” is absurd in the extreme.
Of he to whom much is given, much is expected. Nothing is given to God, so you can’t possible expect anything from him in the sense of obligation. You are obligated to help your child because your child is a massive gift. You are less obligated to help your dog.
But if the father doesn’t feel like helping his kids, if helping them doesn’t contribute to his happiness, what is his motivation for helping them?
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robert_ambrose
Guest
do you believe in the afterlife, if not how do you equate your life with stalin ,hitler ,mother teresa etc.why is there good and evil if we are not accountable at the end.
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Nan_S
Guest
Sad. Very sad. I quote you the entire passage and you don’t seem to grasp who is saying what.
The precise point of this passage is that the same people who poo-poohed Jesus’ evidence (healing incurable diseases, raising the dead, etc. etc.) also did not understand the Father’s words spoken aloud. All they heard was a rumbling like like thunder. Since they had already decided to disbelieve, the Father’s voice was incomprehensible to them.
You can stick with your modern skeptic-scholars if you like. I’ve read them too, and their “scholarship” is merely junk with an agenda. If you want the real scoop you would be better off studying the Early Church Fathers.
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