Ask an Atheist

[JMJ_coder]

I love what I see in your name. When I was young that would describe me.
PLUS. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. They who say you must make an ascent of your will have no idea what they are talking about.
Will cannot know God. Only love and humility can truly know God. GOD IS LOVE.
I did not choose to return to catholicism after 40 years away. I was looking for love in all the wrong places. I wish I had written that. We have no will that is worthwhile unless we have love that matures the will. Without love working through the will we have a hardness and rigidity of theology which divides and is ugly.
My return was through God’s Love and those who are given this mystery of Grace are required to be loving so we show the light that draws those who do not know God to God.
I returned because of the mystery of God’s love being given to me. I DID NOT BELIEVE NOR RETURN BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME TO HAVE AN ASCENT OF WILL. WHERE HAVE ALL THE MYSTICS GONE IN OUR FAITH?
They have been pushed aside by the extroverts who tell us what to do instead of showing Love that has no boundries.
I LEFT OUR FAITH BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF THOSE IN CHARGE. I RETURNED BECAUSE OF GOD’S LOVE. I WILL NOT LET THEIR HARD HEARTS INFLUENCE ME TO LEAVE AGAIN.
WHERE ARE THE MYSTICS?
HAS ANYONE SEEN JP II?

In the words of the Church from the Catechism:

143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.(Cf. DV 5.) With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.(Cf. ⇒ Rom 1:5; ⇒ 16:26)

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.(Cf. ⇒ Jer 17:5-6; ⇒ Pss 40:5; ⇒ 146:3-4)

155 In faith, the human intellect and will co-operate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."(St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 2, 9; cf Dei Filius 3; DS 3010.)

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”.(Dei Filius: 3 DS 3008.) So “that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.”(Dei Filius: 3 DS 3009.) Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind".(Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008-3010; Cf. ⇒ Mk 16 20; ⇒ Heb 2:4)

 

[Ronald_E]

Are you actually saying that women are by gender more capable of love than men? Are you serious?!

Absolutely. If you are a Catholic all you have to do is look to Mary.
Only by the gift of Grace do we have faith. Then through that faith only does the ascent of will begin. Your response to Hopefully reveals an impulsive response that does not have the characteristic of loving compassion. It has a hardness. What you identify in your longer post is used to suppport your hardness. Faith is a gift of Grace. After that gift then what you reference above applies. God Is Love.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Absolutely.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Your response to Hopefully reveals an impulsive response that does not have the characteristic of loving compassion. It has a hardness.

It is not love to wink and nod as someone marches on their merry way to hell. I can only imagine what you think of Jesus, turning over money tables and telling the religious leaders of his day that they are hypocrites, blind guides, and the children of satan. Of course Jesus (Who IS God, there IS love) was a man, so by gender was incapable of enough love.

It is also laughable to think that ‘I can’t help being an atheist - its the way I was born’ is a valid and licit response.

 

[Ronald_E]

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Look at your instinctive response that is harsh. It reveals a hardness of heart. You scoff at what you do not see or understand. You attack.

It is not love to wink and nod as someone marches on their merry way to hell. I can only imagine what you think of Jesus, turning over money tables and telling the religious leaders of his day that they are hypocrites, blind guides, and the children of satan. Of course Jesus (Who IS God, there IS love) was a man, so by gender was incapable of enough love.

Once again you see only what you want to see. How do you know who is going to hell. You justify your hardness with God’s expression of His opposition to what was happening in His place of worship. You equate your anger to God’s. You diminish God in your understanding and thus diminish Him in the eyes of those who look to us to understand God.

It is also laughable to think that ‘I can’t help being an atheist - its the way I was born’ is a valid and licit response.

You say it is laughable which indicates you have no idea about the creation of human beings. You say it is laughable which is your way of exhibiting contempt for something you do not understand. This is what drives others further away from our beautiful Faith.
Alex, what do you think? Hi Annie and munchkins.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Look at your instinctive response that is harsh. It reveals a hardness of heart. You scoff at what you do not see or understand. You attack.

No, your moronic idea that some people are by nature less capable of love than another. Reminds of how some people used to think that African Americans weren’t as smart as everyone else by nature. (now that was harsh)

And, it is even less loving to sit idly by while someone makes claims that could draw others away from the fullness of truth.

Once again you see only what you want to see. How do you know who is going to hell. You justify your hardness with God’s expression of His opposition to what was happening in His place of worship. You equate your anger to God’s. You diminish God in your understanding and thus diminish Him in the eyes of those who look to us to understand God.

For one, I made the observation that your idea of men being less capable of love means the God Who IS love isn’t very capable of love.

Also, no one is condemning anyone to hell. Only God gets to decide. But, we can observe that atheists are not going in the right direction, and we have a duty to warn them. I’m reminded of when someone asked whether Hitler went to hell or if he could have been saved, and someone answered “Hitler certainly could have repented at the very last moment thrown himself on the mercy of God and God would have forgiven him – but it doesn’t look good.”

You say it is laughable which indicates you have no idea about the creation of human beings. You say it is laughable which is your way of exhibiting contempt for something you do not understand. This is what drives others further away from our beautiful Faith.
Alex, what do you think? Hi Annie and munchkins.

Yes, it is laughable because belief is not a genetic trait. You cannot justify atheism by claiming you have no choice, that its just how you are and there’s nothing to do about it. Belief is an assent of the will, not an impulse of the mind - as I have quoted from the Church’s teaching.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Will cannot know God. Only love and humility can truly know God.

Humility is the noblest example of the use OF the will.

Humility is willed, otherwise there is no virtue in it.

When we will ourselves humble, when we recognize our “place” in relation to God and His Church and act on that recognition, we have chosen to be open to that which will “power” our continued faith.

The product of our humility, our continuing faith in what we believe, is not what we choose, though it is usually what we hope for, but the initiator of our hoped for outcome is chosen, and what we choose is chosen for a personal reason according to our life-circumstances, and that thing chosen is humility.

We don’t chose what we eventually believe in. We choose to be humble and allow God to give us what we are to believe in as we can handle it.

We choose to become humble because God has arranged our life such that, if we’re listening to that small voice of wisdom, which may in fact be screaming at us a 200 decibels, it seems like a good idea to become so.

If we don’t seem to have the “motivation” to be humble, then it may just be that we’re not ready yet to be thus, and are in the “wind up” stages in preparation for getting that motivation from God. That’s why it’s not a good idea to make “hard and fast” decisions while in the state of “unmotivated doubt”.

But if, while we’re in those “wind up stages”, we do decide to solidify our opposition to “being humbled”, in other words, take the stand to be hard-hearted in relation to God, then we might well miss our opportunity to use our God given “motivation” when it does come, and find ourselves “lost” forever.

:shamrock2:

 

[bbarrick8383]

I did not read through all the posts, and I am not Catholic yet.

Hypothetically speaking of course, lets say you are right about there being no God and things are the way they are because we are just a bunch of lucky and intelligent(arguably) living organisms then oh well who cares we all die and turn into plant food.

**BUT ** Lets say you are wrong, I will not have to worry because I will be busy kneeling at the throne of God asking for his forgiveness of my ignorant sins and hoping that I will be worthy enter into the Gates of Heaven.

Like I said, that was Hypothetical. I believe wholeheartedly in God.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Poor fellow.

“Beliefs are not choices.”

He has no idea his religion is a belief in non-belief, as well as the belief in his choice to believe in non-choice.

Poor fellow.

This is no atheist. This is a complete automatonic nihilist, “saving” himself from both free will and any faith [verb] in one fell swoop!

Fascinating.

You, my friend are rude and inconsiderate. I wonder what Jesus would do? It was my understanding that God and Jesus said not to judge people… maybe we’re not familiar with the same guys.

I’m sympathizing with you. I see you as a “poor fellow” who is quite unhappy due to your misunderstanding of the terms of which you think your are talking about.

I’m not judging you. I’m judging your “thinking”, which is simply in error on a number of points.

A thing that atheists seem to do, amazingly regularly, is to confuse (conflate) the person with that person’s behaviors. You are not your sins. Your sins are to be condemned while you are to be assisted to see that you need to shuck your sins.

Now, your sin is that you seem to be hardening (or have hardened) your attitude to be “Godless” during a time when it’s simply “recreationally convenient” to be so.

Being an atheist is a religion. It is the negative version of monotheism. We “monotheists” are commanded to help people in need. Neg-monotheists, aka atheists, are in need of help to see the inevitable results of their religion on their person’s.

You’ve simply GOT to accept that we see you as “in need of help” and choose to accept or reject that help with a “good temper” or and “ill temper”.

…but in any case, we won’t stop trying to help you as long as you’re here.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

People are born as atheists - at least, weak atheists, in the sense that they lack belief in a deity. I was born as a weak atheist towards everything - God, Santa Claus, unicorns, etc.

Rubbish. <said with a smile!>

You believed in the omnipotence of “Mom” and/or “Dad”, which no doubt was rapidly obliterated as a belief.

But that belief was your first, other than the more general, “I have no idea what’s going on but I have to trust in ‘the environment’ to be benevolent or I’ll go entirely insane!”, which was also quickly semi-obliterated, but which left it’s “mark” on you which was the “hint” that God gave you that He would take care of you as was best for you to be taken care of in a place which is not for your comfort but rather for your edification.

That “mark” is the “God shaped hole” which you will hear, or have already heard, so much about around here.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Weak atheism is an absence of belief in God. As a baby, I did not believe in God - that belief was absent. Thus, I was a weak atheist.

How do you know what you believed as a baby?

As a baby you believed utterly in God as God, though not God as “The Holy Trinity” (for example), and the “cycle” is that we start believing in God as God (God qua God), then due to frustrations come to believe in God as “Super Mom and Dad”, then eventually come back around to believing either God as God, or God as “unfilled expectation” (ultimate frustration).

It’s dandy for each of us to make competing unsubstantiable statements, but mine are more obviously true than yours, so “I win!” <sticks tongue out!>

:shamrock2:

 

[Ronald_E]

No, your moronic idea that some people are by nature less capable of love than another. Reminds of how some people used to think that African Americans weren’t as smart as everyone else by nature. (now that was harsh)

And, it is even less loving to sit idly by while someone makes claims that could draw others away from the fullness of truth.

For one, I made the observation that your idea of men being less capable of love means the God Who IS love isn’t very capable of love.

Also, no one is condemning anyone to hell. Only God gets to decide. But, we can observe that atheists are not going in the right direction, and we have a duty to warn them. I’m reminded of when someone asked whether Hitler went to hell or if he could have been saved, and someone answered “Hitler certainly could have repented at the very last moment thrown himself on the mercy of God and God would have forgiven him – but it doesn’t look good.”

Yes, it is laughable because belief is not a genetic trait. You cannot justify atheism by claiming you have no choice, that its just how you are and there’s nothing to do about it. Belief is an assent of the will, not an impulse of the mind - as I have quoted from the Church’s teaching.

You do not understand. I wonder how you will interpret what I was told two weeks ago by a woman who is not catholic and who was told by her parents about an angry alcoholic who she knew in her childhood 30 years ago.
Her parents visited this man about two months ago. They had not seen him for about 5 years. The last time they saw him he was still drinking and being mean. He was also an atheist his entire life. Well, in April of 05 he was pronounced dead and was dead for 20 minutes after being pronounced dead. He told them that while he was dead he had the generally reported experience of being surrounded by a bright light and feeling a love that was beyond words. He also heard singing that he could not describe and he was brought to a feeling of joy that he never knew existed.
From the light appeared John Paul II and JP II came to him and gave him a blessing. Immediately after the blessing he came back to life.
He did not find out until days later that he died the same day as John Paul II. All he can say now is that he loves that Pope. Grace creates humility and through that humility the Love of God is revealed.
Stop being mean in your comments when you do not understand what I am saying.

 

[JMJ_coder]

You do not understand. I wonder how you will interpret what I was told two weeks ago by a woman who is not catholic and who was told by her parents about an angry alcoholic who she knew in her childhood 30 years ago.
Her parents visited this man about two months ago. They had not seen him for about 5 years. The last time they saw him he was still drinking and being mean. He was also an atheist his entire life. Well, in April of 05 he was pronounced dead and was dead for 20 minutes after being pronounced dead. He told them that while he was dead he had the generally reported experience of being surrounded by a bright light and feeling a love that was beyond words. He also heard singing that he could not describe and he was brought to a feeling of joy that he never knew existed.
From the light appeared John Paul II and JP II came to him and gave him a blessing. Immediately after the blessing he came back to life.
He did not find out until days later that he died the same day as John Paul II. All he can say now is that he loves that Pope. Grace creates humility and through that humility the Love of God is revealed.
Stop being mean in your comments when you do not understand what I am saying.

While I’m glad that that man is no longer an angry alcoholic atheist, I generally don’t put much stock in so called near death experiences.

Nor do I accept the general premise that you apparently take that everyone will go to heaven no matter what. I believe what the Church teaches that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation (properly understood).

 

[Ronald_E]

While I’m glad that that man is no longer an angry alcoholic atheist, I generally don’t put much stock in so called near death experiences.

Nor do I accept the general premise that you apparently take that everyone will go to heaven no matter what. I believe what the Church teaches that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation (properly understood).

I am saddened that you do not see how beautiful God’s Love is. This is the mystery of God’s Love being revealed to us. St. Padre Pio also believed that when each soul dies at the moment of our death we come face to face with God and are given the choice of where to go.
This is more than a near death experience. I guess we see what we want to see.
In the catechism #847 “Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by Grace, try to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Our responsibility as Catholics is to love through our actions and display the faith that draws others to Christ through His Grace.
It is easy for us to love someone who agrees with us. How much do we love those who disagree with us?
Our example is Christ on the Cross.
Have a good Wednesday.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Our responsibility as Catholics is to love through our actions and display the faith that draws others to Christ through His Grace.

That is absolutely true, though you seem to forget that it is a loving act to admonish the sinner for his sins, and not condemn him for having sinned.

Your definition of “love” is too narrow. There is certainly a place within the Church for people who do nothing that could be considered “rude” or “mean” or “conflict producing” or other such “supposedly not nice” things, but there is also a place for people who “tell it like it is”.

Please don’t fall into your own “trap” of condemning those who don’t share your “temperament of evangelization”.

It is easy for us to love someone who agrees with us. How much do we love those who disagree with us?
Our example is Christ on the Cross.
Have a good Wednesday.

We love those we disagree with enough to tell them precisely what they are doing. That they “know not what they do” is one of their problems, but they will find out eventually, and when they come here for an education, which is the only legitimate reason for them being here (in these fori) they should be given what they implicitly are asking for.

God love 'ya, Ronaldo!

:shamrock2:

 

[Ronald_E]

That is absolutely true, though you seem to forget that it is a loving act to admonish the sinner for his sins, and not condemn him for having sinned.

Your definition of “love” is too narrow. There is certainly a place within the Church for people who do nothing that could be considered “rude” or “mean” or “conflict producing” or other such “supposedly not nice” things, but there is also a place for people who “tell it like it is”.

Please don’t fall into your own “trap” of condemning those who don’t share your “temperament of evangelization”.

That is exactly it. The definition of love must be narrow. We must first identify what is not love in order to begin to understand what love is. Most people do not understand how we live in the flesh and consequently do not understand how a person’s disposition in giving the truth determines how the truth will be received. Hardness of heart injures those most vulnerable. Most of the atheists I know have been highly sensitive human beings who have been hurt by the hardness of the messenger of truth.
It is the disposition of the speaker of truth that shows the luminescent light of God or the light that is caused by friction which is the temperment of Lucifer.
We must understand the person to whom we are speaking before we speak. Christ did that and we must imitate him. With authorities in the Church He was harsh. With the those outside the Church He spoke at their level of understanding and with a disposition of softness and strength.
However, before He spoke He performed acts of love that revealed His loving nature that drew people to Him. Then He spoke to reveal what motivated His actions.
I know how people are hurt. I know how they are hurt before they even begin to awareness of self. I know how they try to protect themselves from harm and how the slightest bit of hardness in another person will drive them away.
My life’s work has been in this area. First and foremost people need to have a sense that we are trustworthy with their most vulnerable self and they need to know that their story of pain will be heard.
If you want to know more you can private message me.
We have to meet them where they are and not where we want them to be.
The trap is knowing we have the truth and then believing we have the wisdom to speak the truth to those who do not have it.
People leave the faith because of the hardness of heart in the teachers of the faith at a very vulnerable stage of the child’s development. Then the teachers blame the child for not getting it.
That is the trap.

We love those we disagree with enough to tell them precisely what they are doing. That they “know not what they do” is one of their problems, but they will find out eventually, and when they come here for an education, which is the only legitimate reason for them being here (in these fori) they should be given what they implicitly are asking for.

God love 'ya, Ronaldo!

:shamrock2:

Just look how JP II drew others to him. Theology correctness without a clear expression of love lacks the light that will draw others. We must learn how to love rather than think we know how to love. I know what drives people away–it is other people.
Jesus tells us we will be known by how we love one another.
Must go to work.
How did you know my neighbor across the street in childhood would call me Ronaldo?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

…

Can’t much argue with you!

I’ll leave you to do the “therapy”, and I’ll be my acerbic self as a “counter-irritant” and deal with my sins of uncharity in the “reconciliational”, er, confessional.

How did you know my neighbor across the street in childhood would call me Ronaldo?

You seem like a “Ronaldo”.

My Dad wasn’t much of a “Ronaldo”, though he was quite the “Ron”, but not much of a “Ronald”, really, except officially, where he was quite a “Ronald” indeed!

…and your childhood neighbor was a big influence on those who have had to deal with “Ronalds” out here!

:shamrock2:

 

[Highwayhound]

Is anyone going to ask Hopefully Wild a question? Afterall this is the purpose of the thread.

My question:

Who has had the greatest impact on your life? How about the top 5 people.

 

[Ronald_E]

Can’t much argue with you!

I’ll leave you to do the “therapy”, and I’ll be my acerbic self as a “counter-irritant” and deal with my sins of uncharity in the “reconciliational”, er, confessional.

You seem like a “Ronaldo”.

My Dad wasn’t much of a “Ronaldo”, though he was quite the “Ron”, but not much of a “Ronald”, really, except officially, where he was quite a “Ronald” indeed!

…and your childhood neighbor was a big influence on those who have had to deal with “Ronalds” out here!

:shamrock2:

I’m not a Ronald. I am a Ron from coal miners on both sides of the family. I used Ronald because Ron E sounds like Ronnie and that is what my wife and mother call me when they like me. Rarely used. I was Ronald when Sister Irene smacked me across the face when I told her I did not sin with jealousy. I was sad and she did not like that I disagreed with her.
I am half Polish and half English. Our history is one of being poor throughout the generations. We have a history of not being good enough. I was the first one in the family to attend college. Had panic attacks in public speaking, panic attacks in social situations, judged as not being worthy of positions because they saw my panic as weakness. However, I now realize that the panic was a signal that, 1] I did not know who I was as an introvert. Consequently, I was trying to be an extrovert and not being able to compete like the extroverts who have mutated to a level of insensitivity in which they do not experience the effect they have on others with their aggression.
2] I was among others who were competitive and who used others to get what they want. An introvert cannot do this and if they try they appear extremely uncomfortable and overcompensate by being extremely aggressive.
3] I was sensitive to how harmful human relationships can be and that there is no small sin that does not harm.

I have learned from my wife that I am much more effective in speaking from my heart and telling my story about God’s gift of Grace rather than debating or convincing someone about the faith.
This was recently reinforced when I was asked to lead a bible study on the parables. Christ first acted to help the suffering of others and then He taught in parables to the general public. He explained the parables to His apostles in private.
He acted then taught.

In my work I use my story of every mistake and sin I committed to show others that I am an expert on sin and mistakes and God is the Expert on Love Who gave me Love that I never deserved. He loved me where I was in darkness.
I never asked for His Love. I asked for forgivenss after He revealed His Love for me and I could see how I hurt His creatures and hurt Him.
I could see that the only way I hurt Him was His suffering in response to my suffering due to not knowing His Love.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

…

It’s good to see you’ve found what your place is, and that you’ve found your place to be it in.

Prayerful hopes for the best to 'ya, Ron!

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Is anyone going to ask Hopefully Wild a question? After all this is the purpose of the thread.

Well, there 'ya go!

Right, so, Big-HW (“Hopefully”), whatcha got in that God shaped hole that you don’t have 'cause you say you don’t have one?

Translation: What are your most important “principles” in life, whatever it is YOU might mean by “principles”?

:shamrock2: