Ask the Atheist

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If we allow subjective opinion about ethics to establish objective truth, we are faced with a contradiction:(1) Alice approves of kerfibbling gnorts; therefore kerfibbling gnorts is objectively good.
(2) Bob disapproves of kerfibbling gnorts, therefore kerfibbling gnorts is objectively bad.
But “good” and “bad” are mutually exclusive; it is a contradiction to say that kerfibbling gnorts is both good and bad.:hmmm:

The moral objectivist way of resolving this contradiction is to say that either Alice or Bob are mistaken. But the objectivist has to go farther: He must say that even if Alice and Bob were in agreement, they might both be mistaken. In fact, if everyone in the world agreed that kerfibbling gnorts were good, they might all be mistaken. Objective truth is, by definition, independent of subjective opinion.

But this leads to a real problem: If everyone agreed that kerfibbling gnorts was good in and of itself (and not as a means to an end), and they were all mistaken, how would they ever find out they were mistaken? There’s no way they could determine their mistake by emprical observation.

It seems obvious that the only possible way they could find out that they were mistaken and kerfibbling gnorts was actually bad was if a god existed and the god told everyone that it was bad. (This would still not prove that kerfibbling gnorts was objectively bad, only that the god subjectively disapproved of it (see Euthyphro). But, god being god, we can assume that god’s opinion somehow mysteriously establishes objective truth for all practical purposes.)

But in this world, no god appears to be telling everyone anything. All I see are people claiming to speak for various gods, with no well-defined objective way of deciding between their contradictory assertions.

Moral subjectivism, on the other hand, resolves the contradiction by removing the “therefore” clauses from each assertion. The moral subjectivist says, therefore:(1’) Alice approves of kerfibbling gnorts.
(2’) Bob disapproves of kerfibbling gnorts.
That’s it. The subjectivist is left with just an observation of the subjective facts. Neither are mistaken, their views do not entail a logically contradiction; there’s no objective truth of the matter to be mistaken about, no objective truth to be contradictory.
Their views are, rather, in conflict.

There are several ways to resolve the conflict. They could evaluate the conflict according to meta-ethical rules which they both agree on. For instance, Alice and Bob might both agree that if participating or refraining from an activity didn’t entail harm or suffering to another, the meta-ethical rule of libertarianism should prevail, and that Alice should refrain from coercing Bob to kerfibble gnorts and that Bob should refrain from coercing Alice to not kerfibble gnorts.

If they don’t agree on a meta-ethical rule, they both have to evaluate the consequences, then, of trying to coerce each other. But coercion is difficult in itself. How hard will each of them resist coercion? Even the stronger party risks loss when attempting coercion; at the very least, people who have been coerced are less freely cooperative. What do Carla, Dave, Emily and Frank think?

It should be noted that this is a pretty good account of how fundamental societal ethics have actually evolved over the years, especially in discussing and establishing subjective agreement to meta-ethical rules.

Moral objectivism is left without a working epistemological method. Moral subjectivism, on the other hand, needs an epistemological method only for discovering individuals’ opinions, which is easily satisfied by asking them.

Moral objectivism, lacking a working epistemological method for determining objective moral truth, can make no actual predictions about the outcome of societal evolution. Moral subjectivism, on the other hand, makes definite predictions:


  1. *]Societal ethics will tend to converge on those ethical and meta-ethical principles which provide the best overall satisfaction to the psychological features which are most prevalent in human beings in general.
    *]Societal ethics will change only when people’s subjective opinions change.
    *]When two subjective beliefs are in irreconcilable conflict, force will be used to resolve the conflict, therefore police and prisons, soldiers and wars.
    *]Even when force is used to resolve conflicts, the outcome will, in the long run, be consistent with prediction (1).

    And this is precisely what we see in the historical evolution of societal ethics.
 
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contemplative:
Another question…do you mind if I share this joke with you?

A young woman teacher with obvious liberal tendencies explains to her class of small children that she is an atheist. She asks her class if they are atheists too. Not really knowing what atheism is but wanting to be like their teacher, their hands explode into the air like fleshy fireworks.

There is, however, one exception. A beautiful girl named Mary has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different. “Because I’m not an atheist.”

Then, asks the teacher, what are you?

“I’m a Christian.” says Mary.

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks Mary why she is a Christian. “Well, I was brought up knowing and loving Jesus. My mom is a Christian, and my dad is a Christian, so I am a Christian.”

The teacher is now agitated. “That’s no reason,” she says forcefully. “What if your mom was a liberal fool, and your dad was a liberal fool. What would you be then?”

A pause, and a smile. “Then,” says Mary, “I’d be an atheist.”
Bravo!!! :clapping:
 
contemplative said:
On Being Shrewd as a Serpent

Interesting article. You’ll be glad to know that I was unable to think of a motive myself; I had to look.

I violently disapprove anyone who would kill her own sister in the hopes of luring a potential mate to a funeral. Such thinking is indeed both abnormal and objectionable.

I disagree with the author’s assertion that, “[E]xcessive empathy has a way of clouding the intuitive light of phronimos… Empathy falls short in that it does not allow us to enter into others’ judgments, decisions and the motives behind them.” I think empathy is precisely how we enter into others’ judgements and motives.

I agree with the author that Behaviorism has failed. But Behaviorism is very poor science. I disagree that the only alternative to Behaviorism is any sort of supernaturalism, much less Christianity. I also disagree with Rousseau that man is fundamentally good-willed, but again I don’t think that the only alternative is supernaturalism or Christianity.
 
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tdandh26:
From what you’ve said then. how can you be sure that what you believe has any merit of truth, for you must be relying completely upon your own understanding which according to you, no matter how strong your belief might be then that belief, by itself, does not establish any objective truth either. So you could be totally in error according to your own explaination of human understanding.
I could indeed be in error about everything. In fact, it’s highly probably that I’m wrong about a lot of things; it’s almost certain that I’m wrong about something. I’m not sure of anything. Like I said, I dislike certainty.
So is it ok for me then to think that Abraham Lincoln did not do many of the things attributed to him. Or, maybe either did Hitler.
I have no objection to you believing anything you care to believe, whether or not I agree with it.
Therefore if we take your hypothosis to its final conclusion then history has no meaning at all unless we have lived it and seen it with our own eyes.
Well, I don’t have any opinion at all about things which I have not seen some evidence of, somehow. I’m certainly more strongly convinced of that which I’ve seen directly. There’s a lot of gray area between those two extremes.
 
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tdandh26:
One other thought, you seem to take a lot of pride in your intellect, so ponder this. A lot of your reasoning behind not doing something immoral such as murder or stealing seems to be based on the assumption that you would go to jail.
Well… A lot of my reasoning on why other people who might want to murder or steal don’t do so is because you and I pay for police and prisons. I myself consider killing and stealing to be distressful and subjectively negative.
What if, after this life an eternal one exists? And what if, one of those existance resides in a place which makes prison look like paradise? If this is true, wouldn’t the creator of these places leave a way for us to know how to live this life so we could avoid the prison of the next?
I would imagine if the Creator felt this way, he would make his wishes known with the obviousness and immediacy that I know about police and prisons.

Turn it around the other way: Suppose the government gave a number of people completely different versions of the law, and did so secretly, without establishing the authority of any of them. Suppose the opposition to the government also did so, just to confuse people. Suppose it was impossible to actually comply with any of these sets of law. Suppose the government arrested people only after much time had passed. Suppose the government arrested, tried, exonerated or convicted and punished people in secret. Suppose it imposed penalties disproportionate with the actual crimes. Suppose it actually exonerated people for any act, if only they avowed they were actually breaking the correct set of laws, but punished people for believing the wrong set of laws even if they actually complied with the correct set.

Would we call such a government just?
Since it is your sole motive to avoid jail wouldn’t you be well advised to ensure an eternal sentence is not passed on you?
I know of no way to ensure such a thing. As I have mentioned before, no matter what I do, no matter what I believe, someone says I’m going to go to hell.
This is purely speculative on my part because for me it is beyond a shadow of doubt that there is life beyond this one.
Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Muslims are not correct? That you will go to hell because you do not believe that Mohammed is final prophet of God? No matter how confident you are, there are a billion Muslims equally confident that you’re going straight to hell. Heck, presuming that you’re Catholic, there are probably tens of millions of fellow Christians who are just as absolutely certain you’re going to hell.

If a god wants me to do something, he’s going to have to tell me directly.
It would seem to me also that with your extensive love of knowledge, you would rather exist, than to have all that knowledge which you have attained blow away with the wind. As the life of so many millions and millions have before you.
I want to believe the truth. If the truth is not to my liking, so much the worse for my liking.
 
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Mijoy2:
How do you answer Lewis’s assertion that:

“Jesus was either, a liar, a lunatic or God.”
First, Lewis’s options are not exhaustive. Jesus could be mistaken or deluded about some things. He could also be a fictional or semi-fictional character. I’m of the opinion that the Jesus of the Gospels is in fact at least a semi-fictional character and might well be entirely fictional.

Second, I don’t think Jesus was all that great of a moral teacher. But even someone who said profound things about morality could still be mistaken or deluded about other beliefs.

Even if the character of Jesus were based on a real person, any number of beliefs could have been fictionalized into the mouth of the character by the authors of the Gospels. IIRC (it’s been a while since I’ve studied the Gospels) Mark doesn’t even have Jesus say he’s God; Mark’s Jesus is more of a prophet. Again, IIRC, the idea that Jesus is God doesn’t really get any traction until John.
 
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kristinma:
Do I need to get my mental health checked out? :whacky:
As I mentioned, I don’t believe that Jesus was a lunatic. I think he was at best a semi-fictional character.

As to whether you yourself are a lunatic, if you’re happy and you’re not in any physical danger of hurting yourself because of your beliefs, I would assert that you are, by definition, not mentally ill.
 
PLP-
I’m not sure by what you mean by everyone ignores the second commandment? Do you mean everyone swears? Actually the second commandment is “Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in Vain” which could mean swearing or lying in God’s name, deceiving by God’s name…Yep, lots of people do it-doesn’t make it right.
Your’re right the Bible doesn’t prohibit slavery, or the other things you mentioned- It doesn’t prohibit Abortion directly, either!!
But I think these can all be summed up by the Great Law, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself. If everyone had a love of God instead of self, and put neighbor before self- think what a different world this would be! I think that’s why the evangelicals who opposed slavery looked at those passages.
I can’t prove to you there is a God, and you can’t prove to me there isn’t. I guess that’s why it’s called “faith”.
I’m a believer because I believe there is a transcendent Morality- right and wrong, which exists outside of what we humans arbitrarily decide is right or wrong at any given point in history.
I believe the human race once had a direct relationship with God, but were given free will, and so had the freedom to reject God, which they did at the Fall. So therefore, God remains hidden, however, we have general revalation ( God’s creating hand in what can be seen) and Special Revalation(the Scriptures).
Genocide is wrong because each human being is created in the image of God and has a dignity, and therefore may not be slaughtered at will. I think Jesus teaching of “love thy neighbor as thyself” summed it up.
And happy New Year!
 
I was thinking of the Natural Law- the consciense I was thinking of. The Natural Law is written on humankinds hearts as to there are some thing that are always wrong.
That is why “right” eventually wins out, in the end.
Otherwise we have a world of “MIght makes right” and I think no one- not even the most moral relativist, would agree with that.
We have had societies where “might makes right” in the past-obviously. Dictatorships, ect.
But most everyone agrees today that that is evil.
And yes, bad things have been done in the name of Christ- or other religeons- but again- that doesn’t make it right and God does not approve.
Actually the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that those of other faiths CAN be part of the plan of salvation and go to heaven(i.e. Muslims, Jews, ect.).
 
Ah! A slow day at work. The engineers are busy and the QA manager has the day off, so I have some slack.
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Vanny:
I’m not sure by what you mean by everyone ignores the second commandment? Do you mean everyone swears?
Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
A literal reading of these verses seems to compel the conclusion that one should neither create images nor worship them.
Your’re right the Bible doesn’t prohibit slavery…
Actually, it explicitly condones slavery, giving rules and regulations for its proper conduct.
But I think these can all be summed up by the Great Law, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind…
This statement, though, doesn’t entail anything specific about morality.
… and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Empathy: The bedrock of secular humanism. 🙂
I can’t prove to you there is a God, and you can’t prove to me there isn’t. I guess that’s why it’s called “faith”.
Indeed.
I’m a believer because I believe there is a transcendent Morality- right and wrong, which exists outside of what we humans arbitrarily decide is right or wrong at any given point in history.
I still submit that I’ve seen no way to distinguish statements which are somehow related to a transcendent morality and which are simply our temporal, arbitrary choices.
And happy New Year!
Likewise!
 
PLP,

How might you explain the role of the Israel and the Jews in History; both biblical and secular?

Here we have a book called the Bible, written during the period of about 1500 years ( I believe) before the time of Christ. Last penned nearly 2000 years ago. The theme of the Bible is the story of the Jews. The beginning; story of Abraham and Isaac, through the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The fact that the Bible tells us the Jews will be with us till the end-times. I don’t think you’ll argue that so far, at least, this is so (they exist in modern day Israel).

(Some interpretations of the bible tell us the Jews reclaiming Israel in 1948 is prophesised…but we’ll exclude that potential evidence for the sake of this question since it is suspect in even many Christians eyes).

Yet excluding the Bible, I beliee there is much evidence that Israel has existed from many centuries BC. From my understanding (and I am hardly an expert on this) the Jewish people, dating back many centeries BC, were a relatively small tribe. This small tribe, throughout history, has made a major impact on world history. I think you will agree it still is. I further think you willl agree the present situation in the middle east is a powder keg. The Jews are still at the center of world news and history.

The story of the Jewish people is a facinating one. Against amazing odds they still exist. Jews were without a home wandering the earth on a number of occasions. Yet they have survived numerous millenium. The Bible, prophesis this.

How might you explain this? Coincidence? The historical acoounts are false and the Jews really do not have a long (3-4000 year) legacy? The story of the Jews is really not tall that unusual? The Bible is falsified and was really written after 100AD?

Curious to know your thoughts.
 
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Vanny:
I was thinking of the Natural Law- the consciense I was thinking of. The Natural Law is written on humankinds hearts as to there are some thing that are always wrong.
It’s interesting though, that those ethical beliefs which appear to be common to most of humanity are precisely those which provide the most empirical determinable material and psychological (i.e. subjective) satisfaction. I believe we conclude that these ethical principles are common to all humanity on the basis that they are in fact common. I don’t believe they are common because they are objectively true.

If we had a different evolutionary history, if, for instance, we were descended from non-social carnivores rather than social omnivores, we might well have very different common beliefs.
That is why “right” eventually wins out, in the end.
Otherwise we have a world of “MIght makes right” and I think no one- not even the most moral relativist, would agree with that.
We have had societies where “might makes right” in the past-obviously. Dictatorships, ect.
But most everyone agrees today that that is evil.
My argument is that a dictator, regardless of the size of his army, is in the long run never so mighty as a morally outraged population.
Actually the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that those of other faiths CAN be part of the plan of salvation and go to heaven(i.e. Muslims, Jews, ect.).
So I’ve got an out! w00t! 😉
 
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Mijoy2:
How might you explain the role of the Israel and the Jews in History; both biblical and secular?
I’m not a big expert in history, especially not ancient history. It’s worth noting, however, that the mythology of many societies prophesy that the society will last forever, or at least for a long time. Some societies will in fact survive for a long time; but the prophecy is either true by chance, or the prophecy is self-fulfilling; chance or self-fulfillment is not at all supernatural.
 
So I’ve got an out! w00t! 😉
Weeelll- not exactly. Here it is: CCC #847:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by His grace,try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience,-those too may achieve eternal salvation."
Then goes on to say the Church still has the duty to evangelize, however. I’m not Catholic,(protestant) but I believe that.
The bible also states that God want’s ALL people to come to a knowledge of Him and be saved-
 
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PLP:
I’m not a big expert in history, especially not ancient history. It’s worth noting, however, that the mythology of many societies prophesy that the society will last forever, or at least for a long time. .
There is nothing comparable to the Jews. This is without parallel.
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PLP:
Some societies will in fact survive for a long time; but the prophecy is either true by chance, or the prophecy is self-fulfilling; chance or self-fulfillment is not at all supernatural.
By chance? Without a home? For hundreds of years? Faced with near annilation multiple times? With an ancient book prophecy to support it? With most of the world (Christian, Judaism and Islam) tracing it’s roots back to the fore-fathers of this “society”? Chance? In the last few decades alone there has been efforts to rid the world of Israel. Again without success. Yet they stand a tiny little inhabitant surrounded by enemies.

If this is all chance maybe I should reconsider my self-proposed ban on playing the lottery. 😃
 
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Vanny:
Weeelll- not exactly.
I know. I was just (mostly) kidding. But if it’s possible for some non-Christians to make it to heaven, it’s not logically impossible that this atheist might make it there as well.

Of course, you understand that I just don’t buy the whole heaven/hell thing in the first place, which makes the whole discussion hypothetical.
 
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Mijoy2:
There is nothing comparable to the Jews. This is without parallel.
Every society is unique in some ways, and somebody has to be the longest surviving society.
By chance? Without a home? For hundreds of years? Faced with near annilation multiple times? With an ancient book prophecy to support it?
I don’t know if the survival of the Jews was entirely by chance; One could probably identify sociological features of the society and its context which correlate to its survival.

But regardless, just because some phenomenon is surprising or unusual doesn’t mean we should rush to judge it supernatural. Supernaturalism and paranormalism are positive assertions; they cannot be predicated on merely ignorance of a mechanism.
With most of the world (Christian, Judaism and Islam) tracing it’s roots back to the fore-fathers of this “society”?
Societies appear to evolve; in a very broad, societal evolution appears to have some features analogous to biological evolution: Some degree of heritable variation and some degree of natural selection. Seeing a “founder effect” in the ideas of many people in many societies is not even that surprising, much less surprising or unusual enough to suspect supernaturalism.

Chance? In the last few decades alone there has been efforts to rid the world of Israel. Again without success. Yet they stand a tiny little inhabitant surrounded by enemies.

And, of course, with history’s most powerful nation as its ally, for entirely ordinary (and some might say even cynical) geopolitical reasons.
If this is all chance maybe I should reconsider my self-proposed ban on playing the lottery. 😃
Chance and natural law.
 
question…would you mind another joke?

The Atheist and the Bear

One day an atheist was taking a walk through the woods.

“What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!” he said to himself. " And to think they were all created by a cosmic accident"

As he was walking alongside the river he suddenly heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to see a seven foot grizzly bear charging towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path but he looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him.

Suddenly he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up he saw the bear right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out: "Oh my God!"

All at once time stood still. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky: “You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don’t exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Why do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?”

The atheist looked directly into the light, “It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a believer now, but perhaps could you make the BEAR a believer?”

“Very well,” said the voice. The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together and bowed his head and spoke:

“Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty , Amen.”
 
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