Ask the materialist...

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The greatest survival value is responding to reality. Not understanding it.

Again, this is a response and not an understanding.
Not intellectual understanding, but understanding nonetheless.

Intellectual understanding is the same thing at a higher level. Not a simple response to direct stimuli, but a broader understanding, when one is able to make a long term prediction and increase his survival. For example: predicting upcoming weather with some accuracy, based upon observation of prior weather patterns.
A successfully operating computer does not mean that every code in it is programmed correctly. The vital ones, yes, the less necessary ones, no. Software glitches come to mind. Even so, computers are designed… I would not necessarily trust an undesigned computer.
There is no indication that the brain is “designed”. It has quite a bit of error built into it. How does autism fit into a “perfectly designed” picture?

As a matter of fact, our whole circulatory system is “messed up”. It is “designed” for a being who does not walk upright. The examples are endless, as usual.
 
Responsible for what? Murder? Intent to commit murder? They are not the same, and should never be treated as same.
.

Okay. I’m sure you agree that both are bad. Do you think he is responsible for either of them? Both? Nothing?
Ok, Assuming that there is God:
  1. Might be true.
  2. Would be true.
  3. Absolutely NOT. There is no collective “action” or collective result.
  4. I am unable to answer, because “grace” is just as undefined as the “soul”.
  1. Why? It seems intuitively obvious to me that bad things affect other people. If you murder someone, you kill that person, emotionally scar his relatives, perhaps encourage someone else to do it, etc. On the other hand, even the smallest nice thing you do for a neighbor affects him for the better. I can’t understand how even an atheist can deny this.
  2. I’ll look up the technical definition in a bit and post it. Basically its a free gift from God that enables us to grow in holiness.
Now, after these straightforward answers a few remarks.
If God intended all of us to be in heaven, he would have done it. Therefore God did not intend everyone to be in heaven. If God wanted us to follow his precise guidelines, he would have made them crystal clear - not allow dubious interpretations - especially not by over-aged men, who never experienced sex and therefore are completely unqualified to make decisions about it.
God wants all of us to be in heaven, but He wants our love. Love can only exist when we are free. Therefore, He allows the possibility of being rejected in order to make this love possible.

I find that the guidelines are clear. Have you experienced otherwise?

Remember, old men do not make the decisions. God reveals them to us.
Why don’t you give some credence to God? Why don’t you assume that God knew exactly what he was doing? And while you are at it, why don’t you assume that God is a decent fellow, who did not wish to set “traps” - by making making sex pleasurable and at the same time forbidding its use?
It’s pleasurable because its good. Sex is created by God and therefore holy in of itself. As with anything, abusing something that is good is bad. Eating is good, fun, and holy, but it is bad if taken to extremes. The case with sex is similar.
I did not say they are not married. I left out all the possible details to allow you to draw conclusions as you see appropriate. They very well may be married and still conduct their mutual love in a forbidden manner.
Fair enough. I’m fairly sure that the short answer to why contraception is bad is that it interferes with the way God has designed sex to work.
An action which is grounded in the feelings. I am really sorry, but you cannot simply redefine “love” just to suit your purposes.
Who is doing the redefining? I have 2,000 years of Catholic theology behind me.

Anyway, if your definition is wrong, then it would be good for me to define it differently, and vice versa.
And this is the line where you are wrong. One part of sex is indeed procreation. For most of the animals, sex is physically impossible outside the time of estrus.
If God intended procreation to be the sole reason for sex, he would have created us just like the rest of the animal world - and the whole question would be moot. God did not choose that route - not even according to believers. A few species are exempt from the sex == procreation “rule” - humans and some of the great apes.
Sex is NOT only for procreation. It is also for the mutal love and sanctification of the couple. There are two components to sex.
If you wish to theorize about the role of sexuality, why not use reason?
  1. God did not create us to be constrained by the estrus.
  2. God did not simply make a mistake.
  3. God intended us to use sex even when procreation is unlikely or impossible.
  4. No kind of love is “evil”.
  1. That’s because sex is not only for reproduction
  2. Of course not.
  3. Absolutely
  4. Agreed. You may disagree over the definition of love, though
Only in the modern times. Humans experimented with all sorts of arrangements since time immemorial. The monogamous relationship is a relatively modern invention.
People have always sinned since creation. I don’t deny this. Your last sentence is a bit of a stretch, though.
Biology does not support it. Selection of partners is an inherently error-prone process. Marriages are not “arranged” in heaven. To be locked in an incorrectly selected relationship is MUCH more harmful, than a friendly (or not friendly) divorce. Especially for the children, if any.
If you have to separate, then it is moral to do so. In fact, to do otherwise could be immoral if it gives scandal or harms the children or yourself. However, the marriage covenant still binds, so you cannot remarry. If you dissolve the meaning of the covenant then the very basis for marriage disintergrates.
Also biologically, once we are past the child-bearing age, we simply do not “count”. Yet, the sexual urge does no go away.
Because it is still an expression of love and sanctification for the spouses.
Bilogically males are “encouraged” by their hormones to spread their seed as widely as possible. Females, who have been the responsible party for actually raising the children are much more inclided to have steady relationships - at least until the children grow up.
Do you have any empirical evidence that men don’t bond to a specific partner?
 
Yes. And no kind of relationship where the partners feel mutual attraction (even if you would not call it “love”), and express it in a mutually agreed manner, can be “frowned” upon. Whatever people do in the privacy of their bedroomes is their own business. I adamantly refuse to call God a “peeping Tom”. Even though I do not believe in God, but at least I think that a possible God would not be a pervert.
Since our primary relationship is with God, it would be more like a concerned spouse.
Now, let’s define “love”:
Let’s posit two scenarios: in both you have two people, who feel mutual affection for each other. In both cases they wow to have a monogamous relationship. In both cases they intend to keep it. In both cases it is impossible for them to procreate. In one case it is a man and a woman, where the woman had a hysterectomy, and the ovaries were also removed. In the other it is two people of the same gender.
You call the relationship between the man and the woman: “love”. What do you call the relationship between the other two people?
The latter relationship is disordered because God did not design sex that way. Simple answer. The former couple can still express their personal love the way God designed, although unfortunately they cannot procreate.
Another scenario: keep the man-woman pair in the focus of your analysis. They have absolutely no chance to procreate for the aforementioned reason. Why would God disapprove of these people to express their love (assuming that you “allow” their relationship “loving”) in a manner which is “forbidden” by the church?
The sterilization was an immoral action. I’m fairly sure that sex between them is not inherently disordered. They could probably participate in it without sin (although any sin from the acceptance of sterilization would remain). If they repent of the sin of sterilization, there is nothing immoral about their sex at all.
 
Not intellectual understanding, but understanding nonetheless.

Intellectual understanding is the same thing at a higher level. Not a simple response to direct stimuli, but a broader understanding, when one is able to make a long term prediction and increase his survival. For example: predicting upcoming weather with some accuracy, based upon observation of prior weather patterns.
Has what we have been engaging in contributed to your survival?
There is no indication that the brain is “designed”. It has quite a bit of error built into it. How does autism fit into a “perfectly designed” picture?
That’s a deformed brain. Anyway, catholics believe that we will not have our glorified perfected body until the end of time.
As a matter of fact, our whole circulatory system is “messed up”. It is “designed” for a being who does not walk upright. The examples are endless, as usual.
Yet it seems to get the job done.
 
I want to clarify that when I say that love is an action I mean that it is primarily set in the will.
 
Okay. I’m sure you agree that both are bad. Do you think he is responsible for either of them? Both? Nothing?
Of coruse I agree that both are wrong. What I deny that they are equal. Yes, the one who intends to commit murders is responsible for his decision.
  1. Why? It seems intuitively obvious to me that bad things affect other people. If you murder someone, you kill that person, emotionally scar his relatives, perhaps encourage someone else to do it, etc. On the other hand, even the smallest nice thing you do for a neighbor affects him for the better. I can’t understand how even an atheist can deny this.
But that is not what you said. You said that a private behavior in one’s own bedroom is a “sin” and as such in drags down the “whole humanity”. Not the same thing at all!
  1. I’ll look up the technical definition in a bit and post it. Basically its a free gift from God that enables us to grow in holiness.
Fine.
God wants all of us to be in heaven, but He wants our love. Love can only exist when we are free. Therefore, He allows the possibility of being rejected in order to make this love possible.
Love does not come “free”, it has to be deserved. And this is precisely where God’s actions - or actually the lack of them - come into the picture. Those minor things that a “Goood Shephard” is supposed to do… look after his flock, and actually help them in the time of need. Like sending a bit of rain.
I find that the guidelines are clear. Have you experienced otherwise?
The “guidelines” are anything, but clear. A set of clear guidelines needs no interpretation.
Remember, old men do not make the decisions. God reveals them to us.
No, he sure did not. If you argue that the Bible is the word of God, you are in a tough position, because you have to deny all the scientific absurdities incorporated in it. Since you are not a fundamentalist, you have to explain how could the text of God’s word be “contaminated” with such absurdities. Not an easy position.

Yes, there are many questionable “commands” in it. Some old “geezers” (please pardon the expression) chose the currently accepted interpretations. It is not clear at all that their interpretation is the correct one. They “claim” it is… but that is far from being sufficient. Fortunately many faithful Catholics do not accept them. You may call them “heretics”…
It’s pleasurable because its good. Sex is created by God and therefore holy in of itself. As with anything, abusing something that is good is bad. Eating is good, fun, and holy, but it is bad if taken to extremes. The case with sex is similar.
But we do not talk about about “over-sexed”. We talk about something that is forbidden by the Church, but - in and by itself - is harmless. As a matter of fact to have “too much” sex - akin to overeating - if physiologically impossible - for males.
Fair enough. I’m fairly sure that the short answer to why contraception is bad is that it interferes with the way God has designed sex to work.
You contradict yourself when later on you accept that the procreative aspect of sex is not the only aspect of it.
Who is doing the redefining? I have 2,000 years of Catholic theology behind me.
Then you have 2000 years of incorrect definition on your hands. 🙂
Anyway, if your definition is wrong, then it would be good for me to define it differently, and vice versa.
Excellent. The word “IF” is the operating problem.
Sex is NOT only for procreation. It is also for the mutal love and sanctification of the couple. There are two components to sex.
I don’t know about the “sanctification” part, but otherwise I agree. Part procreation, part unitive (“unitive” I understand)
If you have to separate, then it is moral to do so. In fact, to do otherwise could be immoral if it gives scandal or harms the children or yourself. However, the marriage covenant still binds, so you cannot remarry. If you dissolve the meaning of the covenant then the very basis for marriage disintergrates.
Marriage is a legal term not a religious one.
Because it is still an expression of love and sanctification for the spouses.
Use the word “partners” and we shall be closer to mutual understaning.
Do you have any empirical evidence that men don’t bond to a specific partner?
What kind of evidence are you looking for? Many males seek out multiple relationships. Biologically it is to the benefit of the species to have as lage a gene-pool as possible.

Will continue tomorrow…
 
Well, let me help you. Love is a positive emotion, which should be expressed in actions. There are, of course several kinds and types of love, depending on the people (or other entites) involved. The love one feels toward a spouse is not the same one feels toward his children or his pets. Or the feeling that a pet feels toward his master. You can also look it up here:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/love

Love could be based on purely physical attraction, or mutual respect, and many different reasons. Nevertheless, these are all types of love. To say “that which comes from God” is but an attempt to avoid the issue.
All of this is pretty much meaningless drivel. Love as “positive emotion” could mean anything to anybody and expressing these so called positive emotions in actions could also lead to despicable consequences. Nazis in Germany felt “positive emotions” towards their imperial dreams of conquest and Aryan purity, they could even have been said to “love” their ideals and carried these out through their actions.

Now if you wish to bear the logical consequences of your belief that love is merely a “positive” emotion and as such is beyond critique and inevitably leads to “good,” then be my guest and also support the claim that Gestapo concentration camps were actually good because those in charge “loved” to do their work and mutually agreed it was a desirable end. As you say, “Nothing is intrinsically evil if it is mutually agreed upon.”
Intrinsically evil, eh? Ungodly circumstances? How peculiar. Nothing is intrinsically evil if it is mutually agreed upon.
As pointed out, this is just a ridiculous claim. Individuals can “mutually” agree to do all kinds of evil. The significant and insignificant agents in carrying out Nazi war crimes “mutually” agreed to do horrific deeds and many even felt “positive emotions” while carrying them out.

Any time you base an ethical system on human emotion you open it to justifying all manner of distortions because human emotions are subject to all kinds of neurotic and psychotic interference.

Love, even in a secular sense, must be tied to “end” results. Do actions (and emotions) result in long term tangible and even intangible good – where that “good” is defined as what rational, well-functioning human beings would will for themselves and others in their care. This is all very much subject to discussion and debate.

And yes, one issue that remains open is whether sexual practices and certain human “emotions” are actually “good” or evil in terms of their resulting consequences.

A paterfamilias may be creating great long term harm to many in his care by the “positive emotions” he may feel while engaging in irresponsible actions. In fact, he may even feel “negative emotions” such as guilt, feeling heavily emotionally burdened, or “bored” with the status quo, etc. But, in fact, being responsible to his family remains the “good” and “loving” thing that he should do, even when he doesn’t “feel” it to be. Your “positive emotion” definition for love is simply inadequate.

A community of individuals which made individual decisions based upon your criteria of “how I feel” will end up in discord and wrangle before long unless there is a level of maturity, commitment and responsibility built into the “characters” of those individuals so they act for the “good” of all rather than just what makes each of them “feel good.”

This is all just secular thinking, by the way.

A note about “gender orientation.”

There are several “angles” to the issue that need to be considered. Several environmental considerations need to be tabled in this debate.

Leopard frogs are undergoing major changes and are threatened environmentally. On a National Geographic program called “Strange Days on Planet Earth” on PBS, a chemical called atrazine is known to cause leopard frog testosterone to change into estrogen. What is happening is that male frogs are being found with eggs forming in their testes. Atrazine is used as a pesticide on cornfields in the US. This reflects another study being done in Australia where fish gender biology is changing
so that eggs are being found in male fish. These fish are found
downstream from a drug manufacturing company and the changes are linked to estrogen levels in the river.

Another study, from the National Geographic program noted above, showed that comparing semen quality of males living in large US cities and the rural midwest indicate that mixtures of farm chemicals being used are causing a drastic reduction in semen quality in the rural community.
This study shows a definite link between chemicals and reproductive functioning, but the source of contamination did not show a strong link between the occupation of farming and semen quality. The decline was found in all males in the rural areas studied, whether they were engaged in farming or not was irrelevant. The source was actually not the obvious one through proximity to herbicide application but actually through the drinking water found in every home. The chemicals are leeching into the drinking water at levels which affected male sexual functioning in the general population.

My point here is by being “tolerant” of what was once considered “abnormal” behaviour perhaps we are missing something vital and potentially devastating to human continuity. Perhaps there is a major change happening in human sexual biology because of environmental pollutants, but we, as a species, are completely oblivious because we believe it is a virtue to be high-minded and tolerant to the gender orientation of others. This apparent “moral high road” might actually be a blind spot to seeing real issues.
 
All of this is pretty much meaningless drivel.
Nice, “loving” opening sentence… “Loving” in the Christian sense, of course, since it was an “act of will”.
Love as “positive emotion” could mean anything to anybody and expressing these so called positive emotions in actions could also lead to despicable consequences. Nazis in Germany felt “positive emotions” towards their imperial dreams of conquest and Aryan purity, they could even have been said to “love” their ideals and carried these out through their actions.
Yes, there were and are human monsters, who love to torture their victims.
Now if you wish to bear the logical consequences of your belief that love is merely a “positive” emotion and as such is beyond critique and inevitably leads to “good,” then be my guest and also support the claim that Gestapo concentration camps were actually good because those in charge “loved” to do their work and mutually agreed it was a desirable end. As you say, “Nothing is intrinsically evil if it is mutually agreed upon.”
This is the first time I ever heard that the victims of the Gestapo “freely consented” to their own tortures. Do you have any evidence for this?

Please, be serious…
 
Since our primary relationship is with God, it would be more like a concerned spouse.
Not spouse! That would be polygamy or polyandry (depending on God’s gender.) No, it is “peeping” and it not a nice behavior.
The latter relationship is disordered because God did not design sex that way. Simple answer. The former couple can still express their personal love the way God designed, although unfortunately they cannot procreate.
I really don’t care what you call “disordered”. Is it love what those two people feel for each other? We are talking about the word “love” right now.
The sterilization was an immoral action. I’m fairly sure that sex between them is not inherently disordered. They could probably participate in it without sin (although any sin from the acceptance of sterilization would remain). If they repent of the sin of sterilization, there is nothing immoral about their sex at all.
It was not “sterilization”, it was a surgery to remove the uterus, due to a tumor. And the removal of the ovaries was necessary due to tubal pregnancies.

The point is: in this case there is absolutely no chance of conception. The unitive part of sex is very much in effect. Why does the Church (not God) prohibit certain positions? It is none of the Church’s business. It is a consensual act between two adults.

If you wish to substantiate that it is somehow harmful (especially to others), be my guest.
 
I want to clarify that when I say that love is an action I mean that it is primarily set in the will.
It is still unacceptably vague. When I get up in the morning, it is an act of will. Is it “love”? Dictionaries can be incorrect when it comes to finding the proper meaning of highly technical terms. But what could be more “mudane” than love?

From the Webster:

Main Entry: love
Pronunciation: \ˈləv\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lufu; akin to Old High German luba love, Old English lēof dear, Latin lubēre, libēre to please
Date: before 12th century

1 a (1): strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2): attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3): affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests b: an assurance of love
2: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion
3 a: the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration b (1): a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2)British —used as an informal term of address
4 a: unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1): the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2): brotherly concern for others b: a person’s adoration of God
5: a god or personification of love
6: an amorous episode : love affair
7: the sexual embrace : copulation
8: a score of zero (as in tennis)
9 capitalized Christian Science : god
 
Here is an interesting tidbit, I read a long time ago, and I found it quite logical.

The “hangups” about sex in some Western societies (mainly the US) stems from the fact that nature has “arranged” our reproductive and excretive organs in a “combined” fashion. It is natural to have a positive attitude toward sex (being highly pleasuable) and a negative attitude toward our waste products. This ambivalent behavior might have created the problems.

The western societies found it “undignfied” that “inter feces and urinam nascimur” (I don’t have to translate it, I hope).

Interestingly, the Oriental societies had a much more liberated attitude. So the above line of thought in not generally applicable, but complicated questions usually do not have simple answers.

On a lighter note:

Q: What is Puritanism?
A: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere might have fun.

And another:

Q: Why don’t Baptists make love in a standing position?
A: Because someone might mistakenly think that they are engaged in dancing.

And finally:

In America sex is an obsession. Everywhere else it is a simple fact of life.
 
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