Ask Whatever You Will, and It Shall Be Done for You. Really?

[Nelka]

God doesn’t always answer my prayers the way I would prefer but then I don’t always give my children exactly what they want when they want it.

They may ask for a biscuit but I am cooking dinner so they will have it afterwards, maybe God sometimes wants to say yes but makes you wait until it would benefit you more.

 

[ethereality]

**Dear JamalChristophr,

There is a very small book that I read a while back that would explain this fully.** I could try to put it into words but the way it would most touch your heart is if you read it for yourself. it is entitled “Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence.” I wish more people would read it as it is really very good!

**You could purchase it to keep it with you, or you can read it by finding it online. Here it is in pdf; and one nice feature is that you can enlarge the print **
saintsbooks.net/books/Fr…Providence.pdf

**Every question on this subject was answered for me when I read this book!

DesertSister62**

It appears the website has moved this file to saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20Jean%20Baptiste%20Saint-Jure%20and%20St.%20Claude%20de%20la%20Columbiere%20-%20Trustful%20Surrender%20to%20Divine%20Providence.pdf , which perhaps this forum is not able to display without truncating.

 

[ethereality]

Jamal,

One must see everything the Bible says about answered prayer as a whole, and not focus on only one part of it. In this thread I listed some 17 points regarding petitionary prayer. See this page for more detail.

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic said:

IF YOU ASK LONG ENOUGH CAN YOU OVERRULE GOD’S WILL AND HAVE YOUR WILL DONE?

I say to that “NO WAY”

Now with this post you are just attacking a straw man BobCatholic. I already said “no way” too.

I think you are trying to re-invent my position as “overruling God’s will” because of the lack of Scriptural merit for your “game over" motif. Your “game-over” thesis is also not supported by the Catechism or by the lives of the Saints.

---

You said in post 42:

We cannot read God’s mind. “for who knows the mind of God?” . . .

I guess the answer to that question is . . . YOU Bob.

You seem to think YOU know the mind of God pretty well.

(Do you see your own self-contradiction built into your argument here?)

You seem to think that if you don’t get what you ask for, when you ask for it, you KNOW the mind of God.

Whereas people persevering say: “I don’t know the mind of God, so I will continue to pray.”

Whereas you seem to say: “I didn’t get what I wanted, when I wanted, so I am going to give up in my prayer concerning this issue because I CONCLUDE I KNOW the mind of God and the mind of God must be “NO””.

And I am saying that isn’t even true for human to human interaction. How in the world would you “KNOW” for human to Divine pleading?

You conclude it is against God’s will if you don’t get what you ask for NOW.

And I am saying you don’t KNOW what the mind of God is in a given situation even if you don’t get what you ask for WHEN you ask for it BobCatholic.

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you BobCatholic to pray MORE first”.

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you BobCatholic to forgive others first” (first go settle accounts with your brother THEN come back and lay your gift on the altar).

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “Your prayer ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot pray as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high." (from Isaiah 58:4 with “prayer” substituted for “fasting”)

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you Cathoholic to pray MORE” too.

Or “I want you Cathoholic to put more effort and concentration into your prayer."

Or whatever.

Sometimes we are called to do Prayer Battle as the CCC discusses.

---

When I asked “how long” you persevere in prayer (in post 39):

Do you give it 5 minutes before you are convinced? 5 Days? 5 weeks?

You replied:

When God says no . . . I accept God’s will . . . That’s how I’m doing it.

This sounds like basically you do not bother persevering in prayer at all!

One of the problems with that theory BobCatholic, is it assumes YOU know God’s will when you clearly don’t “KNOW”.

The problem with that is you have no idea if God is calling you to MORE prayer for your OWN GOOD (not some quasi-sadistic kids “game”) or not wanting you to have something, or even some OTHER alternative.

Prayer is a union with God that is special. Prayer is a privilege and a grace. We both know prayer is not a “burger joint request”.

---

BobCatholic. Ericc asked you in post 41:

Is it possible that God’s “no” is “not yet”?
We see that God acts when certain conditions are met and not before.

Your reply?

Then this is the “monkey in the middle” game with God saying “nyaa nyaa you can’t have it…”

When big kids do it to the little kids with their things, it is cruel. When God does it…

You are not looking at prayer properly BobCatholic. You are centering it on yourself instead of seeing **prayer as “both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. It always presupposes effort.”
**

WHO wants you giving up quickly in your prayer life Bob?

Fortunately the CCC tells us.

**The tempter . . . does all he can to turn man away from prayer, away from union with God. We pray as we live, because we live as we pray. **

The CCC warns us BobCatholic.

**The conclusion is always the same: what good does it do to pray? **

And HOW do we overcome this problem? Fortunately the CCC tells us that too.

To overcome these obstacles, we must battle to gain humility, trust, and perseverance.

With your “game over” theory, you would not have prayed for many years for St. Augustine’s conversion. You would have had hopelessness and despair of that intention saying “game over”.

**But that is NOT what God’s will was BobCatholic! **

God’s will was to draw MORE out of St. Monica, and make her not a victim of “monkey in the middle”, but make her a Saint (and her son too!).

I may not know the mind of God BobCatholic, but concerning prayer perseverance, the Church does.

 

[BobCatholic]

Now with this post you are just attacking a straw man BobCatholic. I already said “no way” too.

I think you are trying to re-invent my position as “overruling God’s will” because of the lack of Scriptural merit for your “game over" motif. Your “game-over” thesis is also not supported by the Catechism or by the lives of the Saints.

No.

You haven’t gotten around to saying how to know if the answer to a prayer is NO.

You don’t.

Why keep praying for something AFTER God said “NO” to it? That’s a waste, and I believe it offends God by not being obedient to his will.

I guess the answer to that question is . . . YOU Bob.

So when I don’t get what I ask for, that’s 100% “JUST KEEP PRAYING FOR THAT THING UNTIL YOU WEAR GOD DOWN”

You conclude it is against God’s will if you don’t get what you ask for NOW.

No.

If I don’t get what I ask for IN A REASONABLE TIME.

200 years is not a reasonable time. I’m dead by then.

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you BobCatholic to pray MORE first”.

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you BobCatholic to forgive others first” (first go settle accounts with your brother THEN come back and lay your gift on the altar).

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “Your prayer ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot pray as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high." (from Isaiah 58:4 with “prayer” substituted for “fasting”)

The “mind of God” MAY be . . . “I want you Cathoholic to pray MORE” too.

Or “I want you Cathoholic to put more effort and concentration into your prayer."

And how do I know that? Your way has no way of finding out. Unless God actually talks to me.

With God giving me the silent treatment, I have zero way of knowing if the answer to those prayers is anything other than “YES” or "NO.

My 8 year old son will never be healed of his mental disease. I know that. I accept God’s will with tears in my eyes knowing I’ll never be able to bond with my son.

This sounds like basically you do not bother persevering in prayer at all!

I believe I cannot change God’s mind. I also believe that God only wants the cross for us here on earth, pain and suffering. Not healing, that is withheld. Romans 8:23 makes that abundantly clear.

The problem with that is you have no idea if God is calling you to MORE prayer for your OWN GOOD (not some quasi-sadistic kids “game”) or not wanting you to have something, or even some OTHER alternative.

Your method does not answer how to find that out.

Prayer is a union with God that is special. Prayer is a privilege and a grace. We both know prayer is not a “burger joint request”.

Of course prayer is union with God. I don’t have that. God does not love me enough to talk to me, he gives me the silent treatment, so I am basically fumbling around in the dark trying to find out what his will is.

I believe that God does not love me temporally.

You are not looking at prayer properly BobCatholic. You are centering it on yourself instead of seeing **prayer as “both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. It always presupposes effort.”
**

I think 8 years of NO is enough for me to give up praying for my son’s healing.

WHO

wants you giving up quickly in your prayer life Bob?

God does by giving me the silent treatment.

With your “game over” theory, you would not have prayed for many years for St. Augustine’s conversion. You would have had hopelessness and despair of that intention saying “game over”.

God’s will was to draw MORE out of St. Monica, and make her not a victim of “monkey in the middle”, but make her a Saint (and her son too!).

Of course, how do you know that St. Monica KNEW this and was given the grace of knowing “Psst. keep praying for 18 years, you’ll get this.”

How do you know that God did not give anything other than the silent treatment?

I look at it like this.

When my wife is angry at me, she gives me the silent treatment. I’m in deep doo-doo.

When God gives me the silent treatment, this means WHAT?

Of course, the same thing. God is angry at me. God has rejected me and all my prayers are for naught.

 

[ericc]

Then this is the “monkey in the middle” game with God saying “nyaa nyaa you can’t have it…”

When big kids do it to the little kids with their things, it is cruel. When God does it…

Then God changed his mind. That cannot happen. Either it is a yes or no.

Let’s put this thinking to the test.

How can I tell the difference between “NO” and “NOT YET”?

and the kicker: WITHOUT challenging God’s will and WITHOUT wasting time praying for things that will never be given a “YES”?

The answer is you can’t. We cannot read God’s mind. “for who knows the mind of God?” says the scripture.

So I ask once. If the answer is “no” this means I don’t get the good thing I ask for within a reasonable time (hint: 200 years is not reasonable) then game over.

If the item was never part of God’s plan the answer is no and game over.

“Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No” I remember the Big Boss saying. I doubt he said “let your not yet become a yes”

Yes , we can’t read God’s mind. That’s why you would not know what his plans are. And that’s why you do not know whether it is a “no” or a “not yet”. And therefore God tells you about this parable about the widow who keeps on pestering the judge Luke 18:3. I do not recall reading that God’s answer must be immediate for everyone or why can’t God wait to see how sincere his children are. And Luke ends verse 8 with “when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth.”

Prematurely deciding a “not yet” for a “no” may seem hasty and perhaps based upon a self desire to conclude God’s mind at your own speed?

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes , we can’t read God’s mind. That’s why you would not know what his plans are.

And because I don’t know, I blindly stumble.

I want to know, God won’t tell me, so game over. I have no choice but to judge for myself, right or wrong.

And therefore God tells you about this parable about the widow who keeps on pestering the judge Luke 18:3.

So are you saying that I should pester God until he does my will? Or should I just accept his will?

Prematurely deciding a “not yet” for a “no” may seem hasty and perhaps based upon a self desire to conclude God’s mind at your own speed?

How do you know I am “prematurely” deciding versus “thy will be done”?

And 200 years is “not my own speed” but limitations of temporal things. I don’t live 200 years. Saying “yes” in 200 years is the same as “no”.

 

[ynotzap]

Bob Catholic:
You are concerned with bonding with your 8 yr old son, which is a natural and beautiful thing. To give love and receive love. In your case, you are the giver but your son is at a disadvantage to respond with his love, as you know not his fault. His situation hurts you in many ways. God allows situation to happen to us, that on the surface seem to be unfair and wrong. In spite of the seemingly negative situation, you keep on trying which apparently led you to the conclusion that it was meant to be, and you are resigned with sadness to accept your conclusion. We believe the purpose in life is to be united with God when our life is over and everything we do should be designed to fulfill that purpose.

Even in this life we can be united to God, and God’s love for us, and our response to that love (the virtue of charity) brings us closer to God, a bonding with God. To love others and not receive love in return is being like God. In this there is no ulterior motive except God, in other words, it is a perfectly pure motive, we die to ourselves and live in God, a perfect bonding even though it is painful. It reminds me of St. Theresa of Avilla who said “Lord , if you treat your friends like this, no wonder you have so few friends” and like Annanias said to God,when told to lay hands onSt. Paul to return his sight, “Lord this man has persecuted us, and caused us suffering” (para-phrase) and the Lord said, " Do it, for he will have to suffer much for my Name" Suffering is a big obstacle to overcome when it comes to practicing our faith. How much faith do we have, or practice because of suffering? How do we grow in faith, if the occasion doesn’t present a challenge to us? You are already bonded to your son in your love for him, and he has been the occasion for your growth in love, and faith, and your son may never be cured, and then he may, but what ever the case we remain faithful to God, and you continue to pray “Lord, if it is not possible that this cup pass, Thy will be done” in loving submission. I have no doubt that you have reached that point, yet your son is only eight years old, and I can only assume that you think you may die even if there is a chance he may be cured One thing I do know, that no matter what decision you make, if you keep on trusting in God, and His love for you and your son, every thing will turn out good, and right! “God is near the broken hearted”

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob Catholic:
You are concerned with bonding with your 8 yr old son, which is a natural and beautiful thing. To give love and receive love. In your case, you are the giver but your son is at a disadvantage to respond with his love, as you know not his fault. His situation hurts you in many ways. God allows situation to happen to us, that on the surface seem to be unfair and wrong. In spite of the seemingly negative situation, you keep on trying which apparently led you to the conclusion that it was meant to be, and you are resigned with sadness to accept your conclusion. We believe the purpose in life is to be united with God when our life is over and everything we do should be designed to fulfill that purpose.

God has sent the message through my son.

I am spiritually autistic, and I cannot love God good enough for him, so he punished me by making my son autistic. Since I cannot love God good enough, God does not want to be united with me. He has rejected me.

Since God refuses to heal my son, He also refuses to heal me, and won’t allow me to get close to him. The message is very loud and clear. There is no hope.

There was no hope for David’s first born son with Bathsheba. None. At least he was fertile and could have more kids (we are not fertile, so game over there).

“God is near the broken hearted”

He doesn’t want to be close to me.

His message is “See what you do to me? I’m going to make you feel as bad as I do by giving you a son who can’t love you.!”

 

[ynotzap]

God has sent the message through my son.

I am spiritually autistic, and I cannot love God good enough for him, so he punished me by making my son autistic. Since I cannot love God good enough, God does not want to be united with me. He has rejected me.

Since God refuses to heal my son, He also refuses to heal me, and won’t allow me to get close to him. The message is very loud and clear. There is no hope.

There was no hope for David’s first born son with Bathsheba. None. At least he was fertile and could have more kids (we are not fertile, so game over there).

He doesn’t want to be close to me.

His message is “See what you do to me? I’m going to make you feel as bad as I do by giving you a son who can’t love you.!”

Game is never over until it’s definitely over, and that’s when you and I depart this earth. It is hard to think coherently, clearly when we hurt. What you expressed in contrary to our faith It is the Holy Spirit who causes us to grow, we don’t make ourselves grow, but by co-operating with grace we grow. God moves first not us. If we try to move spiritually on our own, we will fail. God in justice would never demand from you something you can not give. We give God our poverty, that’s all we have, but we give it in love, He does the rest. It is amazing how poorly people think of God, I can’t judge Him by how poorly I feel, or think. I think of all the horrors of war, and starvation, and killings, and poverty and all human suffering and my heart bleeds for my fellow man, it needn’t be this way. I try to understand why, Lord, why. Then the Lord speaks to me through the Church, through my fellow man, and through my own observations. My Catholic Christian faith and experience with God, and reality has made it very clear why.
This is why Jesus came, to redeem us from these horrors, man’s inhumanity to man. You and I, and the rest of the world who strive to do the right things don’t realize what forces we are fighting against. These forces if successful will lead to despair, and utter failure, contrary to the purpose of our existence. Satan is a reality, because of sin these chaotic events happen, they happen to us individually, and to the rest of world. We do not have the power to conquer this evil force, that’s why Jesus came. He came to give us His Spirit, and by the works of His Spirit we are then able to conquer, and defeat this force which is also spirit. Anything contrary to Faith, Hope (trust) and Love if it prevails in our lives, then we can say “Game Over” These virtues are the work of the Holy Spirit, merited for us by Christ. Our knowledge comes from Divine Revelation, a gift of faith . We are to use these gifts to combat the power of evil over us, the armor of Christ. If God is going to speak to us, it is through our brothers in Christ, we are His vessels of communication because we are part spirit, and share this nature with God, this is how we are made to His image and likeness. With the effects of grace, we become more like Him, in a supernatural way. We all are tested, just like you in our own way. You are not alone. Turn to Christ and believe, and think of Him for who really is a God who never will abandon His children, and never stop loving them or you.

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic.

Your appeal to Romans 8:23 doesn’t do away with perseverance in prayer. It manifests it.

ROMANS 8:22-23 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

There has been spiritual regeneration through Baptism. But we do await getting our glorified bodies back at the Final Judgment. We await the “redemption of our bodies”.

But notice in the mean time, there is “groaning” while we are awaiting this!

“Groaning” is “Christian petition”. Not “game over.”

• “Groaning” = “Christian petition” (not lack of Christian petition)

See CCC 2630 “Christian petition, what St. Paul calls “groaning,” arises from . . .”

CCC 2630 The New Testament contains scarcely any prayers of lamentation, so frequent in the Old Testament. In the risen Christ the Church’s petition is buoyed by hope, even if we still wait in a state of expectation and must be converted anew every day. Christian petition, what St. Paul calls “groaning,” arises from another depth, that of creation “in labor pains” and that of ourselves "as we wait for the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved."103 In the end, however, “with sighs too deep for words” the Holy Spirit "helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words."104

Footnote 103 explicitly states this refers to Romans 8:23-24 (and footnote 104 explicitly refers to Romans 8:26).

No Bob. You cannot licitly appeal to Romans 8:23 for a “game over” paradigm.

You have no idea what God’s plan is for you in the future. And I want to urge you to keep praying for you and your family’s good. I (and I am sure others here) am now even doing that BobCatholic. How much more should YOU?

---

You said:

Your method does not answer how to find that out.

You may not get to “find that out” in this life Bob.

That type of humility is part of what keeps Christians in prayer.

---

BobCatholic. You said:

God does not love me enough to talk to me, he gives me the silent treatment, so I am basically fumbling around in the dark trying to find out what his will is.

His will is for you is, as the Church teaches, for you to persevere in prayer (among other things).

This interior feeling of “silent treatment” may be a spiritual dryness that God has sent you for your own good. I have had times of great spiritual dryness too. Many readers here have.

(Talk to the best Priest you can find about this “spiritual dryness”. He MAY call it a “Dark Night”. He’ll explain all of that to you. I would also suggest doing a life-long Confession or “General Confession” to him too.

Objection: “What! Am I not forgiven from my prior Confessions that I did with other Priests?”

Answer: Yes of course you were forgiven. But there is MORE to the Confessional than mere forgiveness of sins. I once had a Confessor tell me, it cuts about three years off of various Confessions to him as far as KNOWING the guy confessing sins to him. In other words, the Priest can know you better, and if he knows you better, he can advise you better (not to mention the act of humility on your part). Not necessary, but may be quite helpful.)

BobCatholic. At this point you are probably thinking: “WHY would God allow this ‘Dark Night’ for me?”

I think the answer is found just a few verses after Romans 8:23 (bold mine) . . .

ROMANS 8:26-28 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

You haven’t gotten around to saying how to know if the answer to a prayer is NO.

Sure I did BobCatholic (just like you, I don’t know either). Here it is again . . .

I may not know the mind of God BobCatholic, but concerning prayer perseverance, the Church does.

You said:

I think 8 years of NO is enough for me to give up praying for my son’s healing.

Not a chance.

You are called to persist in prayer for whatever it takes BobCatholic. YOU are the family’s proverbial dragon slayer. You gotta leave it “all on the field” BobCatholic. Your family depends upon you to be the High Priest of your Domestic Church. When you gave you life to your wife (and family that grew out of this) you gave your life, not eight years. They may need your help in other areas that you may be unable to discern what they need. And this may be among the array of things God MAY be using to send grace to them in other areas helping them through YOU.

Keep asking for your son’s (and your own and the rest of your family’s) healing! This is a life-long endeavor. Be a prayer warrior BobCatholic.

And if you do not get this good thing (or others), you will someday be enlightened as to what BETTER thing you DID receive through your perseverance because God’s plans for us are always bigger than our own little plans. As St. Padre Pio said: Prayer is never wasted.

Hang in there BobCatholic and keep up the good fight. Keep praying.

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic.

Your appeal to Romans 8:23 doesn’t do away with perseverance in prayer. It manifests it.

ROMANS 8:22-23 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly **as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. **

Pay attention to the big red letters.

We have not been redeemed yet. God withheld that from us while we are here on this planet.

Now after we die, fine, there’s the adoption, the game changes. But we have to survive until then!

“For in this hope we were saved”

Which hope?

Am I guaranteed to persevere until the end? That smacks of OSAS, so the answer is a big fat juicy NO.

Guess what that means? NO HOPE. I don’t have the guarantee of making it.

That’s why I work out my salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING because I’m going to fail and have to get up and fail and get up and…ugh…

You have no idea what God’s plan is for you in the future.

Yes I do. It is the cross.

Suffering. Pain. Tears. Sadness.

You may not get to “find that out” in this life Bob.

Of course I can’t find that out, I’m not redeemed yet. God withheld that too.

His will is for you is, as the Church teaches, for you to persevere in prayer (among other things).

Again, this means what? Keep praying for something until I beat God into submission with my prayers? My will not his?

This interior feeling of “silent treatment” may be a spiritual dryness that God has sent you for your own good. I have had times of great spiritual dryness too. Many readers here have.

I understand, logically, rationally, why God does this. God doesn’t want us getting attached to the warm fuzzies, basicaly we get attached to the warm fuzzies instead of God. So God does the Dark Night to have us unattached, ripped heart to shreds, so we don’t attach to the warm fuzzies.

But I still need my daddy, Abba, and need a hug from him. I need to be picked up and held for a short time. My kid falls down scrapes his knee, I’m there to pick him up and hold him to comfort him (even though my kid hate this due to his mental disease).

Talk to the best Priest you can find about this “spiritual dryness”. He MAY call it a “Dark Night”.

I’m familiar with the Dark Night. This may be it, or maybe a rejection from God since I can’t love him good enough.

You are called to persist in prayer for whatever it takes BobCatholic.

If God does not want to heal my son, I think 8 years is more than enough to get it through my thick skull that the answer is “NO” and game over. It is a waste of time.

They may need your help in other areas that you may be unable to discern what they need.

That’s why I did not give up praying for OTHER things. My kid is not going to get healed, God said no to that. So I pray for other things.

And if you do not get this good thing (or others), you will someday be enlightened as to what BETTER thing you DID receive through your perseverance because God’s plans for us are always bigger than our own little plans.

I don’t know when “someday” is. AFAIK, it could be never.

As St. Padre Pio said: Prayer is never wasted.

He was and is a saint. His prayers are never wasted. I’m not a saint. So my prayers can be wasted, asking God for something against his will (like my son’s healing), which offends God, so I stopped praying.

I’m a horrible man, and that’s why God does not love me enough to talk to me or give me some thing as small as a hug. I want my daddy! But I don’t have a relationship like that with him.

I want that daddy-son relationship. He doesn’t. And this makes me wonder if I even want to go to heaven, if this is how horribly he treats me. No wonder so many people go to hell, God pushed them away too hard with hard testing.

I’ll never get that daddy-son relationship, I’m afraid.

 

[BobCatholic]

It is the Holy Spirit who causes us to grow, we don’t make ourselves grow, but by co-operating with grace we grow.

But I"m not given this grace, I’ve stalled out and basically can’t move forward.

God moves first not us.

and if he doesn’t do that for me, I’m done for. Game over.

God in justice would never demand from you something you can not give.

He already does demand.
No matter what I do, it is never good enough for him, he rejects me.

It is amazing how poorly people think of God,

“If this is how you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few” said a famous saint.

You and I, and the rest of the world who strive to do the right things don’t realize what forces we are fighting against. These forces if successful will lead to despair, and utter failure, contrary to the purpose of our existence. Satan is a reality, because of sin these chaotic events happen,

God has abandoned me to him and the devil just dances in joy.

We are to use these gifts to combat the power of evil over us, the armor of Christ.

I never got those gifts, that’s why I’m sad. OR maybe I did, and they’re not working.

Turn to Christ and believe, and think of Him for who really is a God who never will abandon His children, and never stop loving them or you.

then where is my daddy? (Abba)? Why won’t he relate to me like a daddy instead of the strict disciplinarian that he is being to me?

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic. You said:

We have not been redeemed yet.

This is not accurate because it is too broad of a statement BobCatholic. Look at Romans 8:23 concerning “redemption”.

Excerpt from ROMANS 8:23 we . . groan inwardly as we wait for . . . the **redemption **(Greek apolytrōsin) of our bodies.

All this is talking about is our “Bodies”. Not about us as a whole. We HAVE been Redeemed by the Blood of Christ BobCatholic.

We have been Redeemed.

Go back and re-read it. The verse doesn’t say “We have not been redeemed yet.”

The verses are talking about awaiting the redemption of our glorified BODIES.
That is at the end of time.

• In the meantime we pray.
• In the meantime we groan.
• In the meantime we have Christian persistence of prayer.

EPHESIANS 1:7-8 7 In him we have **redemption **(Greek apolytrōsin) through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us.

COLOSSIANS 1:13-14 13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have **redemption **(Greek apolytrōsin), the forgiveness of sins.

CCC 504c . . . From “his fullness” as the head of redeemed humanity "we have all received, grace upon grace."164

 

[ynotzap]

But I"m not given this grace, I’ve stalled out and basically can’t move forward.

and if he doesn’t do that for me, I’m done for. Game over.

He already does demand.
No matter what I do, it is never good enough for him, he rejects me.

“If this is how you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few” said a famous saint.

God has abandoned me to him and the devil just dances in joy.

I never got those gifts, that’s why I’m sad. OR maybe I did, and they’re not working.

then where is my daddy? (Abba)? Why won’t he relate to me like a daddy instead of the strict disciplinarian that he is being to me?

I have said it many times,and I will continue to say it because I know that it is true, and so do other Christians. Many times our faith in God doesn’t take as we might expect it to because we have never had a real encounter with Jesus. We can do what we think are all the right things, and still things do not seem to work as expected. This happened to me in a profound way, it almost destroyed me, and my family. I suffered much with breakdowns, failures, frustrations, loneliness and the Dark Night wondering why these things were happening to me. I prayed very much, remained faithful to God in spite of much pain. God sustained me, because as others indicated, I could have become very bitter, and even lost my faith. Then it happened, my mind was opened to the truth, I was blind spiritually, and the devil took advantage of this condition. I thought that I was savior to my children,and this was the job I thought God wanted me to have. The answer came in a very clear understanding, an enlightenment, that there was only one Savior, and it wasn’t me. And yes I had a profound experience with the devil. I believe that Jesus reserved this problem for Himself to show me that He was indeed the only Savior. When I learned this in real life, not just from the Bible, and Church teachings, then I experienced conviction and confirmation of this truth, that Jesus alone is the Savior, no one else. I would strongly suggest that you turn to Christ and ask Him for this encounter, and expect it. You can pray “Lord I believe, and hope, help my unbelief and lack of hope.” and pray as you have, except pray for the encounter. You can’t really love someone if you lack knowledge of that person, especially if you heard that He loves you from reliable sources. I never had a real father, other than a biological one. But I experienced that I had a terrific Father in God. Let Christ lead you to Him, that’s why He came.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is not accurate because it is too broad of a statement BobCatholic. Look at Romans 8:23 concerning “redemption”.

Excerpt from ROMANS 8:23 we . . groan inwardly as we wait for . . . the **redemption **(Greek apolytrōsin) of our bodies.

All this is talking about is our “Bodies”. Not about us as a whole. We HAVE been Redeemed by the Blood of Christ BobCatholic.

Yes, we have been REDEEMED, but it is being withheld from us while we are here. We have to survive until our death before we can actually get redeemed.

This is why we are temporally held responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.

 

[GLam8833]

It appears the website has moved this file to saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20Jean%20Baptiste%20Saint-Jure%20and%20St.%20Claude%20de%20la%20Columbiere%20-%20Trustful%20Surrender%20to%20Divine%20Providence.pdf , which perhaps this forum is not able to display without truncating.

Especially this quote:
Let us note here, with regard to the difficulties we may find in submitting to the will of God, that even when our will is firmly decided to submit, and has in fact submitted,
our mind, following its natural inclination, may still continue to reason and argue on the events that are occurring or may occur. We may say to ourselves for example: “If I
were now well, or if I were to fall ill, if I were given such and such a job, if I were sent to such and such a place, if such and such a thing happened, it would be good (or
bad) for me, it would help (or prevent) my plans, I could do this or that as I want to,” and so on. Nature tries thus to obtain at least the satisfaction of thinking about and
discussing the incidents of our lives. But we should endeavor to exterminate these remains of our corrupt nature, and just as for the love of God we have forbidden our will
to use its freedom of choice, for the same reason we ought to deny our mind the freedom of discussion and judgment. Let us entrust ourselves totally and unreservedly to
the direction of Divine Providence

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic said:

(Our Redemption) is being withheld from us while we are here.

No BobCatholic. That only concerns our bodies.

We have been Redeemed. See CCC below (bold and ul mine. Italics orig.) . . .

CCC 1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 **Already we glory in the “liberty of the children of God.”**37

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic. You said:

Pay attention to the big red letters.

I DID pay attention to the big red letters BobCatholic and waiting to be fulfilled does not mean us having a lack of persevering in prayer.

That’s exactly WHY we are persisting in “groaning” or as the CCC calls this, “Christian petition”.

ROMANS 8:22-23 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Back up two words from your own big red letters and it contradicts what you are trying to assert. Or just go the CCC 2630 on this passage (I already showed it to you here).

• We groan while we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
• We groan while we wait for the end of time.
• We PRAY, and persist in “groaning” or in “Christian petition”!

Notice it doesn’t say:

We shrug our shoulders and say “game over” while we wait for the redemption of our bodies? No!

NOT ROMANS 8:22-23 (Phantom Verse) 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; but we ourselves, have stopped groaning because it’s game over so the Spirit does not groan inwardly from us either.

ROMANS 8:22-23a,c 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we . . . groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

CCC 2630b . . . . Christian petition, what St. Paul calls “groaning,” arises from another depth, . . . . "as we wait for the redemption of our bodies.

“Groaning” is “Christian petition" BobCatholic. Not DOING AWAY with “Christian petition”.

Romans 8:23 does NOT TEACH that we are to have a “game over” attitude about our perseverance in prayer.

---

BobCatholic said (emphasis mine):

Am I guaranteed to persevere until the end? That smacks of OSAS, so the answer is a big fat juicy NO.

BobCatholic. You are saying something I never said or implied (another straw man argument).

You are NOT metaphysically guaranteed! That’s one reason WHY we CONTINUE to persevere in prayer.

It is the “game-over” attitude that would lead me away from prayer. It is the “game-over” outlook that would lead me to OSAS thinking and traditions.

Your view has shades of determinism (I am not saying YOU are a determinist Bob). THAT is what OSAS people have.

From Google . . .

de·ter·min·ism
. . . noun

Philosophy

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

---

When I said:

His will is for you is, as the Church teaches, for you to persevere in prayer (among other things).

You replied:

Again, this means what? Keep praying for something until I beat God into submission with my prayers? My will not his?

I told you what this means Bob. It means your prayer for good things is a lifelong commitment.

You also said:

I don’t know when “someday” is.

We don’t need to know BobCatholic. We need to “trust”.

---

BobCatholic. It sounds as though you DO pray and this (below) is not directed at your posts per se (but is general info. for readers of this thread) . . . .

Excerpt from CCC 2744 Prayer is a vital necessity. . . . .
. . . Those who pray are certainly saved; those who do not pray are certainly damned.40

 

[ericc]

And because I don’t know, I blindly stumble.

I want to know, God won’t tell me, so game over. I have no choice but to judge for myself, right or wrong.

So are you saying that I should pester God until he does my will? Or should I just accept his will?

How do you know I am “prematurely” deciding versus “thy will be done”?

And 200 years is “not my own speed” but limitations of temporal things. I don’t live 200 years. Saying “yes” in 200 years is the same as “no”.

So basically what you are saying you asked God a couple of times, you didn’t see his reply and you conclude that is a no? Why should your timeline be definitive for God? Why should what is reasonable for you be reasonable for God? What time length is reasonable for you, obviously we are not talking 200 years. 1 yr, 5 yrs, 20 yrs, 50 yrs?

Or you just got tired of praying?

I am spiritually autistic, and I cannot love God good enough for him, so he punished me by making my son autistic. Since I cannot love God good enough, God does not want to be united with me. He has rejected me.

You are accusing God of divine punishment? There are billions that experience less than perfect bliss. This is divine scapegoating. Punishing parent’s sins through your offspring is Old Testament, Jesus already put that away in John 9:2-3. If you believe this sort of things, it could be for the sins of any of your ancestors, not necessarily yours.

Yes, we have been REDEEMED, but it is being withheld from us while we are here. We have to survive until our death before we can actually get redeemed.

That is not very correct. Everyone has been redeemed. Past , present and future. Believers and non-believers. Christ death settled that debt for mankind. Our death has nothing to do with redemption. You are mistaking salvation for redemption. We will know whether we are saved upon death. One can be redeemed but not saved.

So don’t despair yet. There is still hope for anyone who stays alive.