Ask Whatever You Will, and It Shall Be Done for You. Really?

[BobCatholic]

No BobCatholic. That only concerns our bodies.

So God withheld it from our bodies, and we are not fully redeemed.

So how are we supposed to make it until we are actually redeemed fully?

God basically tells me “Here’s the cross. crushes me Good luck. Hope you make it!”

 

[BobCatholic]

I DID pay attention to the big red letters BobCatholic and waiting to be fulfilled does not mean us having a lack of persevering in prayer.

That’s because I don’t define “persevering in prayer” to mean “keep nagging God into submission to my will”

If God said no, He will not change his mind. So game over.

You are NOT metaphysically guaranteed!

Right, and since I have no guarantee, I have nothing to depend on. No hope.

Should I walk on the road that will crumble ahead of me and I fall into the abyss? Or should I walk knowing that God guaranteed the road ahead of me won’t crumble?

I told you what this means Bob. It means your prayer for good things is a lifelong commitment.

Right. So if God says to one good thing I can still keep praying for other good things that He has not said NO to. That’s perseverance in prayer.

We don’t need to know BobCatholic. We need to “trust”.

Trust is a two way street. God has to trust us by talking to us too.

Otherwise, all I can do is think for myself and that means I’ll think the wrong thing and game over, I’m screwed.

BobCatholic. It sounds as though you DO pray

Yes, I do pray. But when God says no, I cannot change his mind, so game over. I pray for something else, since I cannot bring this rejected to Him anymore.

 

[BobCatholic]

So basically what you are saying you asked God a couple of times, you didn’t see his reply and you conclude that is a no?

I’ve prayed, waited a reasonable time, prayed again, waited another reasonable time, and so on. 8 years. God said no. So game over.

Why should your timeline be definitive for God? Why should what is reasonable for you be reasonable for God? What time length is reasonable for you, obviously we are not talking 200 years. 1 yr, 5 yrs, 20 yrs, 50 yrs?

Because I only have limited strength, and God is not refilling it.

God says “Here’s the cross! crushes me Have a nice life! Hope you survive!”

Or you just got tired of praying?

I got tired of monologuing, because God clearly said no and stopped listening to my request to heal my son.

You are accusing God of divine punishment?

Temporal punishment. I am not perfect. Therefore I am required to be crushed.

There are billions that experience less than perfect bliss.

I am not a sadist, and do not take comfort, joy or pleasure in knowing others suffer.

Punishing parent’s sins through your offspring is Old Testament, Jesus already put that away in John 9:2-3.

Jesus Christ took care of the SPIRITUAL punishment. Not the temporal punishment.

You DO know we don’t live in the Garden of Eden? We are still held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.

If you believe this sort of things, it could be for the sins of any of your ancestors, not necessarily yours.

Wow, I never thought of that. I thought I was just being temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. I am ALSO held temporally responsible for the sins of my ancestors!

There is no hope for me to get around this.

I am required to carry the cross, Game over.
I am wheat that must be crushed to make flour. Game over.
I am flour that must be cooked to make bread. Game over.
I am grapes that must be squished to make grape juice. Game over.
I am grapes that must be fermented to make wine. Game over.

There is no hope. Just the cross in life.

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic said:

If God said no, . . .

That’s the point BobCatholic. You DON’T KNOW that God said “no”.

Just because you don’t get what you want WHEN you want it, you cannot conclude a prayer petition violates God’s will. As you yourself said, no one can know the mind of God.

 

[ericc]

I’ve prayed, waited a reasonable time, prayed again, waited another reasonable time, and so on. 8 years. God said no. So game over.

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic
That’s the point BobCatholic. You DON’T KNOW that God said “no”.

My son is not healed. The answer is NO. What more proof is there?

Just because you don’t get what you want WHEN you want it, you cannot conclude a prayer petition violates God’s will. As you yourself said, no one can know the mind of God.

It is not “when I want it” I can’t wait forever, I am a mere mortal, subject to time.

I’m not God, who can wait forever to answer a prayer.

Answer me this: Why does God play “monkey in the middle” purposely withholding a GOOD THING from those who ask for it?

Declared by yourself. You were judge and jury.

Well, if God won’t tell me, I have to know somehow, so I have to take the less dependable option because the most dependable option was not available to me.

So is everyone else.

I am not a sadist, I do not take comfort, joy, or any kind of pleasure knowing others suffer.

God has been keeping you in existence all these while.

For what purpose? He won’t say.

Perhaps so that you can be there for your son. Try not to discard/ignore what has been given to you. Would you prefer you not being there for him when he need you most?

My son doesn’t know I am alive. His mom is #1 and always will be. Of course, I could play on the ipad and he’ll come watch me play - but this is not for me, it is the ipad that attracts him.

Ok. Words spilled out of anger are normally to be discounted. Presents asked for but not received yet shouldn’t end up in anger, disappointment perhaps. Perhaps you received a different present but not aware of it.

I’m not aware of any other present because it is hidden from me. It is not revealed to me.

Based on your own determination.

Well, if God won’t tell me, I have to know somehow, so I have to take the less dependable option because the most dependable option was not available to me.

Neither are 100% of the population. We are not required to be crushed.

If we are NOT required to be crushed, why am I required to be crushed?

Of course we are required to be crushed.

Scripture says we are wheat. We are to be made flour. How do you do that? Crush.
But wait, that’s not all. We are to be made into bread. How to take flour and make bread? Add uncomfortable ingredients and tons of heat. That’s suffering.

Scripture says we are grapes. How do you make grape juice? CRUSH.
But wait, that’s not all. We are to be made into wine. How do do that with grape juice? Ferment it. That’s suffering.

So, when you say we are not required to be crushed, that is not true.

Perhaps only to those who seek it. I am not a masochist. So I do not seek it.

I don’t seek it, but it is forced upon me, no choice for me.

I mentioned that to point out that suffering is universal. It is not that God mete out divine punishment because you sinned. It was your assumption.

So we are held temporally responsible for others sins.

We are not responsible for Adam/Eve sin.

We are TEMPORALLY responsible (not spiritually responsible, Jesus Christ took care of that)

We are not in the Garden of Eden.

We are products of imperfect beings. That is all there is to it.

We are imperfect beings but are told we must be perfect in order for God to want us.
An impossible request.

We are not owed perfect happiness. That is not an entitlement.

True. We are only owed the cross, nothing more. That’s all life is, the cross, suffering, pain, darkness, heartbreak…

Says who? Pray for strength to carry on taking care of your child… That may be your cross. Healing may not necessarily be the best possible outcome for you.

You confirmed what I said. There is no hope to get around this.

No hope.

 

[therese14]

If what we ask is according to God’s will

 

[ericc]

My son is not healed. The answer is NO. What more proof is there?

It is not “when I want it” I can’t wait forever, I am a mere mortal, subject to time.

I’m not God, who can wait forever to answer a prayer.

Answer me this: Why does God play “monkey in the middle” purposely withholding a GOOD THING from those who ask for it?

Well, if God won’t tell me, I have to know somehow, so I have to take the less dependable option because the most dependable option was not available to me.

I am not a sadist, I do not take comfort, joy, or any kind of pleasure knowing others suffer.

For what purpose? He won’t say.

My son doesn’t know I am alive. His mom is #1 and always will be. Of course, I could play on the ipad and he’ll come watch me play - but this is not for me, it is the ipad that attracts him.

I’m not aware of any other present because it is hidden from me. It is not revealed to me.

Well, if God won’t tell me, I have to know somehow, so I have to take the less dependable option because the most dependable option was not available to me.

If we are NOT required to be crushed, why am I required to be crushed?

Of course we are required to be crushed.

Scripture says we are wheat. We are to be made flour. How do you do that? Crush.
But wait, that’s not all. We are to be made into bread. How to take flour and make bread? Add uncomfortable ingredients and tons of heat. That’s suffering.

Scripture says we are grapes. How do you make grape juice? CRUSH.
But wait, that’s not all. We are to be made into wine. How do do that with grape juice? Ferment it. That’s suffering.

So, when you say we are not required to be crushed, that is not true.

I don’t seek it, but it is forced upon me, no choice for me.

So we are held temporally responsible for others sins.

We are TEMPORALLY responsible (not spiritually responsible, Jesus Christ took care of that)

We are not in the Garden of Eden.

We are imperfect beings but are told we must be perfect in order for God to want us.
An impossible request.

True. We are only owed the cross, nothing more. That’s all life is, the cross, suffering, pain, darkness, heartbreak…

You confirmed what I said. There is no hope to get around this.

No hope.

So your child is going to have one less prayer because dad think his prayers are useless? Even if you think your prayers are “useless”, praying to the saints for intercession may be of value because the prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed. You have not forgotten them have you? Even if you don’t pray, we will. Your prayers may not be powerful, mine may be the same, but others may have a lot more punch than what we have.

Read Job. Look at how he deals with huge setbacks.

So you didn’t think you have been given the grace of strength the last 8 years and you have managed these 8 years all by the strength of your very self? That smacks of arrogance and/or not acknowledging divine assistance or blindness.

Not all “good” things wished for may have good endings. We do not have foreknowledge.

 

[BobCatholic]

So your child is going to have one less prayer because dad think his prayers are useless?

His mental disease has not been healed. So I’m going to stop praying for the healing of his mental disease since God said no and there is no way to change his mind. Game over.

 

[JamalChristophr]

With my A.D.D., I’m not sure I have the energy to read everything that has been posted here.

Looks like the discussion has been quite lively!

As some have said, it is indeed not quite the right tack to follow, to take one verse and try to place such a literal interpretation on that one verse without considering it more in the full context of scripture and understanding the ways in which the semitic people wrote and expressed themselves in that time and place.

As someone mentioned already, a telling verse comes at the end of one or more of the gospels when Jesus says before his Passion while in Gethsemane:

My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

We can ask, but I think at the end of the day, we have to always say when making our request, if it be according to God’s Will.

I am not a parent (yet) but I would shudder to have to see my innocent children suffer from terrible illnesses of one kind and another. I’m not sure I could handle it.

But we know as Catholics that suffering has redemptive value to save many souls unlike any other activity of man, when it’s united to Christ’s Passion.

When I can’t figure things out, which is OFTEN. My favorite and most often implemented verse is Isaiah 55: 8-9

***For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

---

 

[BobCatholic]

I totally agree.

What you ask for must be in God’s will. If it is not, the answer is automatically no, and game over. Further prayer against God’s will is not effective. We cannot overrule God’s will.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I totally agree.

What you ask for must be in God’s will. If it is not, the answer is automatically no, and game over. Further prayer against God’s will is not effective. We cannot overrule God’s will.

It seems like what the “discussion” might have been about above is:

Does God sometimes say to us: wait.

Abraham definitely waited a looooong time for a son to be given to him- Zechariah and Elizabeth, too, I think, prayed a long time before a son was given.

But it is true, I believe, some things must be accepted. I myself keep praying for something, but I’m starting to realize there’s a good chance God is not going to give it, but it has changed me a little bit …a very little bit…in maybe being able to accept the fact that God has chosen not to grant it to me. All I know is I still hope and pray for it, but if I don’t get it, I think I can find some peace in knowing that God’s plans are better than my desires, though I may not understand why until the other side of Heaven.

My 2 denarii, anyways.

 

[BobCatholic]

It seems like what the “discussion” might have been about above is:

Does God sometimes say to us: wait.

But that assumes God actually communicates this message.

If God does not communicate the “wait” message, and what is asked for, does not happen, the answer is clearly “NO”.

Does God really have to give us a noogie on the head and say “C’mon, you haven’t figured out that you’re not going to get what you ask for, yet?”

Obedience delayed is obedience denied. The quicker you figure out that the answer is “no” the quicker you can move on to pray for something that is a “yes” or “wait”

 

[JamalChristophr]

I shall further consider you view, Bob. Thanks.

 

[casslean]

But that assumes God actually communicates this message.

If God does not communicate the “wait” message, and what is asked for, does not happen, the answer is clearly “NO”.

Does God really have to give us a noogie on the head and say “C’mon, you haven’t figured out that you’re not going to get what you ask for, yet?”

Obedience delayed is obedience denied. The quicker you figure out that the answer is “no” the quicker you can move on to pray for something that is a “yes” or “wait”

How do you know God is not telling you to wait and you just aren’t hearing Him?

For eight years you have been praying that God will heal your child; I cannot even imagine the pain of asking God’s help to heal a sick child and seeing it denied time and time again. But I can look within that situation and see other possibilities. Perhaps God is trying to tell me something else. Perhaps God is trying to tell me to treasure what I have in that child instead of praying that he be different. Perhaps God is trying to teach me not to see my child as sick simply because he isn’t the way I want him to be. Perhaps He wants me to understand that He created my child in His own image and he is perfect in that image.

It doesn’t mean your daily life is any easier. It doesn’t mean you aren’t faced with challenges and struggles every day. But maybe this isn’t God saying no - He’s just giving you a chance to rethink what you are asking for. You’ve been asking Him to say yes and not asking Him for the wisdom to understand His will for you and your life and the patience and strength to endure while He reveals it to you.

I heard an excellent speaker once say that sometimes he feels like people pray as if they are saying, “Hey, God, listen, I have this problem, and here is how I would like you to solve it…” as if God didn’t already know all of our trials and struggles. That isn’t the purpose of prayer. Prayer is God’s way of drawing us closer to Him, and He wants to help us, so instead we can imagine it as God knowing what we need, and when we come to Him in our prayers and ask Him for what we need, then He comes to our help. Our parish priest said it similarly in a recent homily - God is not going to open every door we knock upon merely because we want it to be opened; He opens those doors we need to have opened to us.

I am sorry you are going through these struggles. I will pray for you and your family.

 

[BobCatholic]

How do you know God is not telling you to wait and you just aren’t hearing Him?

God is the #1 best teacher in the universe.

Are you telling me, that a slow-witted mortal will not learn the lesson from the #1 best teacher in the universe? Seriously? He’s not going to cut through the fog? He’s not going to make the message clear? I may struggle in my faith, but this is something that is abundantly clear to even me.

Perhaps God is trying to tell me something else. Perhaps God is trying to tell me to treasure what I have in that child instead of praying that he be different.

Already doing that. And I’d continue doing that if he were healed.

Perhaps He wants me to understand that He created my child in His own image and he is perfect in that image.

And that wouldn’t change if he were healed.

Or maybe God is punishing me for marrying late in life. Or maybe God says I’m not supposed to ever bond with my son (as a sign that I’m never supposed to bond with my Heavenly father because I’ve been rejected) - especially since He keeps saying NO to the prayer of healing.

as if God didn’t already know all of our trials and struggles.

He knows. But does he want to relieve them?

That isn’t the purpose of prayer.

That’s why I stop praying for things God said no to, and move on to things that have the door still open.

Prayer is God’s way of drawing us closer to Him,

This assumes He hasn’t rejected me already. I have zero way of knowing if God hasn’t said “OK, go your own way then…I’m done with you.”

I will pray for you and your family.

Thanks!

 

[casslean]

God is the #1 best teacher in the universe.

Are you telling me, that a slow-witted mortal will not get the message from the #1 best teacher in the universe? Seriously? He’s not going to cut through the fog?

God is the best teacher in the universe and He CAN cut through the fog - but you have to be willing and able to listen, and it has to be part of His plan to tell you.

Just because you don’t understand God’s plan doesn’t mean He doesn’t have one. And it doesn’t mean your continuing to pray and hope and have faith isn’t part of it.

This assumes He hasn’t rejected me already. I have zero way of knowing if God hasn’t said “OK, go your own way then…I’m done with you.”

God loves you. He wouldn’t reject you. He wants you to come to Him. If you haven’t rejected God’s mercy, if you have accepted His invitation to come to Him, he won’t have rejected you. We know this.

Eight years is a long time for you. It’s a lifetime for your child. But it isn’t a lifetime for God. He doesn’t work according to our timelines, so simply because you feel like He hasn’t answered your prayers in the last eight years doesn’t mean He won’t answer them in another eight. That’s the key to faith - to keep going even when you have no reason.

 

[BobCatholic]

God is the best teacher in the universe and He CAN cut through the fog - but you have to be willing and able to listen, and it has to be part of His plan to tell you.

It also has to be his will to tell me, and if it is not, game over, I"m doomed.

And it doesn’t mean your continuing to pray and hope and have faith isn’t part of it.

Well, I’m not going to pray against God’s will. He’s not going to heal my son.

God loves you. He wouldn’t reject you. He wants you to come to Him.

I want to come to him, but he is silent.

Eight years is a long time for you. It’s a lifetime for your child. But it isn’t a lifetime for God.

It is nothing to God. He doesn’t understand that.

He doesn’t work according to our timelines, so simply because you feel like He hasn’t answered your prayers in the last eight years doesn’t mean He won’t answer them in another eight. That’s the key to faith - to keep going even when you have no reason.

And how do I know that God’s will is “NO” and I keep praying against it, and that’s a sin?
Or maybe God is punishing me for marrying late in life. Or maybe God says I’m not supposed to ever bond with my son (as a sign that I’m never supposed to bond with my Heavenly father because I’ve been rejected) - especially since He keeps saying NO to the prayer of healing.

The key to faith is knowledge. God must provide the knowledge.

If God says X, no further debate, I’m there.
If God doesn’t say X, I’m not going to put words in his mouth.

Since God did not say yes, or “wait” he clearly said NO. Game over.

 

[casslean]

And how do I know that God’s will is “NO” and I keep praying against it, and that’s a sin?
Or maybe God is punishing me for marrying late in life. Or maybe God says I’m not supposed to ever bond with my son (as a sign that I’m never supposed to bond with my Heavenly father because I’ve been rejected) - especially since He keeps saying NO to the prayer of healing.

The key to faith is knowledge. God must provide the knowledge.

If God says X, no further debate, I’m there.
If God doesn’t say X, I’m not going to put words in his mouth.

Since God did not say yes, or “wait” he clearly said NO. Game over.

Your son is with you. He has not been taken from you. Therefore, God has not clearly said “No.” That means everything else is still on the table. You don’t know God’s will, and by saying that since He didn’t say “Yes” or “Wait” such that you could interpret, He must have said “No,” you are still putting words into God’s mouth.

God has provided you with knowledge. He has given you knowledge of Him, through His son. He has told you of His ever-lasting love, of His limitless mercy, of His grace, and of His compassion.

Asking God for something that is not His will to give is not a sin; it simply means it will not be given, because it is not His will. But like children before our father, we can always ask.

 

[Faith1960]

You can only ask for things that are in conformance with God’s will.

Not in God’s will? Answer is no. No matter how much you beg. Can’t change God’s mind.

Why ask then?