Asking about Jesus

[Hadi]

Eucharisted has asked me to open a new thread so this is an opportunity to ask some questions

1. What did Jesus want from the Jews at his life time and before his death
   did he want from them to abandon something or to do something?
   (I don’t want general vague answers like , to believe in him (or that he is the Messiah) )
2. What is the significance of Jesus death specifically on the Cross as a theological event rather than historical (other than the OT prophecy )

Thanks

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Eucharisted has asked me to open a new thread so this is an opportunity to ask some questions

1. What did Jesus want from the Jews at his life time and before his death
   did he want from them to abandon something or to do something?
   (I don’t want general vague answers like, to believe in him (or that he is the Messiah).

I think he wanted them to recognize that he was the Messiah who had been prophesied and that he would make it possible for them to live in a new way. He wanted them to accept that he was sent by God who he spoke of as his father. He wanted them to be ‘born again’ of water and the Spirit. This would mean that God would change them internally and guide them by his Spirit. They would live by the law of love of God and their neighbor instead of trying to obey all the ritual laws.

1. What is the significance of Jesus death specifically on the Cross as a theological event rather than historical (other than the OT prophecy )

When Moses led the Israelites through the desert some of them turned against God and made idols to worship. God punished them by sending poisonous snakes. When they cried out to God, He told Moses to make an image of a serpent and mount it on a stick. When it was lifted up, those who looked upon it would be saved. Even though they had sinned, God would heal them and save them from death.

In a parallel way, when Jesus was lifted up on the cross he brought healing and salvation to all who would look to him in faith.

Another significance of Jesus’ death is that it was the perfect sacrifice to God the Father. The Jews were told to make sacrifices for sin in the temple. Of course, no sacrifice could really make up for a sin against the eternal God. Only God himself could do that. Since Jesus was God the Son who had taken a human nature in Mary’s womb, he gave his life as the perfect sacrifice to God the Father. After this, no other temple sacrifices were needed. In fact, soon after Jesus’ death, the temple was destroyed and no Jewish sacrifices are now made.

Jesus’ death on the cross, as a sacrifice for our sins, reconciled us to God. Now we may call Him Father. Although He is our creator and our judge, we may trust in His love for us.

Also, Jesus’ death on the cross was the sign of the new covenant God was making with mankind. God had made covenants with the Jewish people (with Abraham, with Moses, etc.) and each covenant was sealed with the blood of animal sacrifices. The new covenant is sealed with Jesus’ blood.

There is much more to be said about the significance of Jesus’ death on the cross.

 

[geometer]

1. What did Jesus want from the Jews at his life time and before his death
   did he want from them to abandon something or to do something?
   (I don’t want general vague answers like , to believe in him (or that he is the Messiah) )

He wanted them to remember at all times, the love that they feel for God, and at the same time remember, the love that they have for their neighbors, even when neighbors suddenly become enemies. And overcome bad situations by asking to be sent by God.

Jesus believed the truth of his own name, ‘God will deliver us’. We are to do the things he did. We are to be baptized, because he was, and we are to go and come as the wind, because he did…

Seek first the Kingdom of God, and enter into it reborn of the wind, his offspring…

1. What is the significance of Jesus death specifically on the Cross as a theological event rather than historical (other than the OT prophecy )

His father raised him from death, his father and our father, his God and our God…

 

[Eucharisted]

Eucharisted has asked me to open a new thread so this is an opportunity to ask some questions

1. What did Jesus want from the Jews at his life time and before his death
   did he want from them to abandon something or to do something?
   (I don’t want general vague answers like , to believe in him (or that he is the Messiah) )
2. What is the significance of Jesus death specifically on the Cross as a theological event rather than historical (other than the OT prophecy )

Thanks

1. He wanted the Jews to do God’s Will. Of all the commandments in the Mosaic Law, they were summed up by two: to love God and to love one neighbor. This is God’s Will. So Jesus said that His mother and brothers and sisters were those who did the Will of His Father, and He told the rich man who wanted to know how to enter Heaven to love God and his neigbor - and moreover, if he wishes to be perfect, he ought to detach himself from the world and attach himself to God (become poor and follow Jesus), and He told His Apostles to love one another just as He loved them, right before He would die for love of them. To love is to do God’s Will, for love is the summary of all the Commmandments: or, as Jesus put it, in quoting Hillel: Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you; this is the Law and the Prophets.
2. This requires a bit of understanding of Jewish theology and ritual. God commaded the Jews to offer animal sacrifices to Him: sin offerings, thanksgiving offerings, etc. The sin offering was a first-born male lamb, unblemished, sacrificed upon the Altar of Holocausts. The Altar of Holocausts sat on a mount and it was made of stones (in the desert), than wood (in the Tabernacle), than stones (in the First and Second Temples). According to Jewish Tradition, when the Messiah would come, all sacrifices would cease, save the thanksgiving offering, which go on forever. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. He was the first-born of Mary (and first-born dose not necessarily mean He had brothers, it merely means the first son born), He was sinless, unblemished, obeyed all of the Commandments. He died as a sin offering on the Cross because the Cross is the Altar of Holocausts: it was erected on a small mount and made of wood. The reason the Altar was made of wood in the Tabernacle was because of the mobilation of the Israelities: they were on a journey and had no time to stop and make a stone altar, nor build a temple. So they had a wooden altar and a tent (tabernacle). This is the same for Jesus, in a sense: there was no time to build a proper altar for Him, so one was made of wood (a cross).
   Earlier I said that according to Tradition all sacrifices would cease, save the thanksgiving offering. Now, this would require universal redemption, if all sin offerings were to cease. And that is what Jesus did: He redeemed man. But I digress! Jesus fulfilled the requirement of all holocausts ending save the thanksgiving offering by fulfilling the Passover. For you see, the Jews were awaiting the fulfillment of the Passover, the redemption of Israel: just as God delivered them out of Egypt, they awaited Him to deliver them out of sin. This Jesus did fulfill, literally and spiritually. He literally fulfilled it by His Sacrifical Death. He spiritually fulfilled it by transforming the Passover from a remembrance and re-presentation of and thanksgiving for the deliverance of Israel to a remembrance and re-presentation of and thanksgiving for the redemption of mankind. Hence, He not only fulfilled the Passover but also caused the thanksgiving offering to be perpetuated. The Eucharist - Greek for “thanksgiving” - offering is the Sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God, who fulfilled the promises of God to Israel. And just as at the Passover Jews ate the lamb as a way of participating in the offering of the lamb at the Temple, so too, the eating of the Eucharist is the way of participating in the Offering of the Lamb of God at Calvary.
   In brief, the Cross is the Altar. And since the Eucharist is offered at the Altar, the Altar is a representation of the Cross of Christ. Just as the Priest is a representation of Christ, who offers Himself (the Eucharist) at Mass just as He offered Himself at Passover (“This is My Body…This is My Blood”). Christ is made present as the Eucharist, but He is represented by the Priest, who acts in His Person, being a consecrated man.

That’s the best answer I can give. Sorry for the late reply.

 

[Eucharisted]

Okay, I think I did a poor explanaton of the Altar and the Cross. Let me try again.

The Altar is a represetation of the Cross which Jesus died on and of the Table which Jesus instituted the Eucharist at. The Cross is the Altar of Holocausts. The Table is a represetation of the Altar and the Cross. So the Altar is the Cross, the Cross is the Altar, and the Table is the Altar and the Cross. It’s like the Holy Trinity: the Father is in the Son, the Son is in the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in the Father and in the Son.

 

[Sam_777]

So fellow Hadi what do you think now after those answers?

 

[Hadi]

So fellow Hadi what do you think now after those answers?

point 2 was explained clearly by Eucharisted …

but to wait for hundreds of years and after many prophecies and anticipation , and at the end , all you get is someone who teach you how to love,as if love is not found in the OT

but I agree to the point made that Jesus wanted them to abandon the ritual commandants ,yes this is worth waiting

 

[jakasaki]

Hadi, since this is your thread, can we use it to discuss Jesus topics on here?

Or do want to stick to your original first post and leave it be if you feel that you can receive more answers to the original inquiry.

 

[Hadi]

Hadi, since this is your thread, can we use it to discuss Jesus topics on here?

Or do want to stick to your original first post and leave it be if you feel that you can receive more answers to the original inquiry.

the questions have been answered,so use this topic as you wish

 

[jakasaki]

the questions have been answered,so use this topic as you wish

Thank you Hadi - much appreciated.

Are there any questions you have regarding Jesus from the Bible vs Isa from the Koran?

 

[Hadi]

Thank you Hadi - much appreciated.

Are there any questions you have regarding Jesus from the Bible vs Isa from the Koran?

1- Why did Jesus call the Jews at his time , “lost sheep” ?

2- Why did Jesus instructed his disciples not to teach the Samaritans? they believed in the Torah and had a linage to the 12 Jewish tribes.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

2- Why did Jesus instructed his disciples not to teach the Samaritans? they believed in the Torah and had a linage to the 12 Jewish tribes.

They went to the Samaritans later, but first the gospel had to be preached to the Jews?

Actually, Jesus did go to the Samaritans himself. Someone else will probably post the passages where he interacted with the woman at the well in a town in Samaria and she believed in him and called her townsmen who also accepted him.

 

[jakasaki]

Jesus’ ministry before His death, resurrection and ascension was primarily to the Jews, though far from being restricted to them.

After these events He sent out his disciples, whom He had thoroughly prepared, into all the world with His message of good news of salvation by grace and were all guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jakasaki]

1- Why did Jesus call the Jews at his time , “lost sheep” ?

2- Why did Jesus instructed his disciples not to teach the Samaritans? they believed in the Torah and had a linage to the 12 Jewish tribes.

Clair already answered point #2, so I’ll answer point #1

The Jews at the time of Jesus were the “lost sheep” because they once again ignored God and went about doing every opposite thing of what they were expected to do under God’s covenant with them.

Therefore that is why Christ called them the “lost sheep”.

When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
St. Matthew 9:36

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

2- Why did Jesus instructed his disciples not to teach the Samaritans? they believed in the Torah and had a linage to the 12 Jewish tribes.

Don’t forget the Samaritans were looked down upon by the Jewish population. This was because they had intermingled with non-Jewish cultures and along the way picked up non-Jewish practices, so even though the Samaritans and Jews had similarities, there were also great differences that prevented the two from enjoying one another’s company.

The disciples themselves were not destined to preach to the Samaritans until after Pentecost, when the Great Commission found at the end of Matthew’s Gospel would go into full swing. Yet as Claire pointed out, Christ went Himself to the Samaritans during His earthly ministry, meeting a Samaritan woman and making many believe in the Messiah in the nearby city. Christ also glorified a Samaritan in the famous Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), and it was a Samaritan leper who was glorified when only he and not his nine Jewish peers returned to Jesus to thank God (Luke 17:11-19).

 

[Hadi]

I really appreciate the answers given in this topic although point#1 was not clearly explained

The Jews at the time of Jesus were the “lost sheep” because they once again ignored God and went about doing every opposite thing of what they were expected to do under God’s covenant with them.
.

Did they break the first commandant at his time?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I really appreciate the answers given in this topic although point#1 was not clearly explained

Did they break the first commandant at his time?

They basically were acting the way Christ found them, with corrupt leadership and, as you suggested, some of them were worshiping something other than God. The Pharisees, for example, worshiped the Sabbath as a written law rather than remembering He who had made the Sabbath.

Many of the later prophets spoke on God’s disapproval of the way ancient Israel was going. The prophet Isaiah often spoke on this, as did many others. I’ll quote one example of how bad it got, quoting the prophet Amos who was told this by God:

I hate, I reject your festivals, nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them; And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs; I will not even listen to the sound of your harps. [Amos 5:21-23]

 

[Hadi]

here is another question ,so bear with me please

the catechism of the Catholic church in paragraph 460 states :

**460 **The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

How do you explain the red parts to a Muslim ?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

here is another question ,so bear with me please

the catechism of the Catholic church in paragraph 460 states :

**460 **The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

How do you explain the red parts to a Muslim ?

Ah! Very very very good question! It’s an important concept not found in most parts of western Christianity today, save for Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

The teachings in the Catechism, which is also taught by the Church Fathers and can be found in the early Church writings, is known as theosis. It’s a Greek word that roughly translates as “deification.”

However, and this is very important…this does NOT mean men become literally God or little gods.

The quote “God became man so that man might become God” comes from Saint Athanasius, an early fourth century Church Father who was a deacon at the Council of Nicea and later became Bishop of Alexandria. He wrote regarding theosis, “God became man so that man might become God,” but he added something very important afterward. He stated, “We become God as by imitation, not by nature.”

Christ gave us the command “be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect” (Matt 5:48). Theosis is mankind striving to accomplish this. What happens is that an individual becomes so close to God that God’s glory shines through them. The apostle Peter described it being that we become “partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Peter 1:4). As I said before, it’s not about men becoming gods but God using righteous men to display His Light.

Think of it this way: men are the image of God, yet we are as like dirty windows, therefore God’s light cannot shine through. When the window is cleaned through fighting sin and living a near-perfect life, that window is cleaned, and it allows God’s Light to shine through us to the world. This is not unique to the New Testament and Christianity. Remember that when Moses descended from Mount Sinai after being in close contact with God for a lengthy amount of time, his face was said to have glowed so brightly people were afraid to look at him (Exodus 34:30). Even today, there are stories of monks on Mount Athos in Greece who, after lengthy prayers and fast, are said to glow.

Also important to remember is that in other languages, such as Hebrew, one of the many words translated into English as “God” can mean “godly” or “god fearing.” For example, when it says in the Psalms “You are gods” (Psalm 82:6 - Christ makes reference to this in John 10:34), it means that they are “godly” (the word used also means judges or magistrates - basically, leaders). So when the Church Fathers wrote “so that we may become God,” they did not mean we become God literally, but we become godly and reach such a state of righteousness that we return to the glory that Adam had before the Fall of Man.

Does that answer the question? Let me know if I need to explain anything else.

 

[Hadi]

Byzantine_Wolf:
Thanks a lot,you have explained some parts in detail…I appreciate

however,

what is this divine sonship in “receiving divine sonship” ?

explain this phrase “wanting to make us sharers in his divinity”

on a side note,this leads me to thinking this could lead into two ways…either a concept of becoming literal gods as found in Mormonism or to apply the same standard to Jesus Christ whenever referred to as god or sharing divine nature in the NT and therefore to reject the Trinity.