Asking help from a saint

[onmywayagain]

I hope people will understand that God, is a God of the living. Because when they understand that, then they will understand that Catholics don’t pray to the dead. But until then, they will never understand.

God bless those who understand who God really is.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

You said: “Asking friends to pray for us in Heaven is praying to them, since they are not living”

Not living? They are a lot more alive then you and I are!!! I think you are confusing Prayer and Worship.

This is addressing water’s reply too.
Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 “Let no one be found among you who… who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD…”
How can you contradict scripture???

 

[SAHM02]

This is addressing water’s reply too.
Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 “Let no one be found among you who… who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD…”
How can you contradict scripture???

It is my understanding that Scripture has to be taken IN context. It is also my understanding that because Scripture is the word of God that Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Blue Serenity gave a quote from Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 to be exact.

How does that compare to Revelation 8:3-5 or Revelation 5:8

Revelation 8:3-4 reads:
3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand. (NIV)

How did the Angel receive the prayer of the Saints?
Scripture states that the prayers went up before God from the angel’s hand. How is that possible?

Revelation 5:8 reads:
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Who are the 24 elders?
Who are the 4 living creatures?
Who are the saints?
And how did the elders and 4 living creatures receive the “saints” prayers?

I can tell you that I have read other translations and in them it states “holy ones” in the place of the word “saints”. Scripture does not say were these “holy ones” or “saints” are…. However it is clear that the elders, Angels, and living creatures are in Heaven.

I have heard Catholics interpret these scriptures:
I have heard them state that the “saints/holy ones” are those on Earth.

I have heard that the “elders” are the “Saints” in Heaven.

Saints are giving the prayers they receive from those on Earth to God.
The angels are giving the prayers they receive from those on Earth to God.

How does those verses in Revelation relate to Deuteronomy?
I’m not sure. I do know that Scripture CANNOT contradict itself….

So either the verses in Revelation are taken OUT OF CONTEXT?
OR the verses in Deuteronomy are taken OUT OF CONTEXT?

Or maybe Revelation is taking about an “apple” and Deuteronomy is talking about an “orange”
I’m sure you have heard of the phrase comparing apples to oranges.

 

[water]

This is addressing water’s reply too.
Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 “Let no one be found among you who… who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD…”
How can you contradict scripture???

Thanks, but you should find out what “the dead” here meant? whom the writer referred to and why the writer mentioned this? What people did with the dead?

The Bible cannot contradict itself as God says God of the living. From your point of view, do you mean God is your God not of those in Heaven then?

There is no difference between asking your living-on-earth friends to pray for you thann asking your-living-in-heaven friends to pray for you.

If this is true, then there is a broken link between Heaven and Earth.

 

[water]

Thanks, but you should find out what “the dead” here meant? whom the writer referred to and why the writer mentioned this? What people did with the dead?

The Bible cannot contradict itself as God says God of the living. From your point of view, do you mean God is your God not of those in Heaven then?

There is no difference between asking your living-on-earth friends to pray for you thann asking your-living-in-heaven friends to pray for you.

If this is difference, then there is a broken link between Heaven and Earth.

 

[water]

oops, I meant that If this is difference, then there is a broken link between Heaven and Earth.

 

[onmywayagain]

This is addressing water’s reply too.
Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 “Let no one be found among you who… who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD…”
How can you contradict scripture???

In this passage the “dead” is refered to the unfaithfull. If you continue reading the whole passage and not just parts of it you will understand who God is talking about. It is refering to those who conslut with fortune-tellers and so on. If you believe what a fortune-teller tells you than you will be an abomination to the Lord. Reading the whole passage is how we learn what God is truly tell us.

Just like the people today who go to see palm readings and who ever to know what the future has for them. They consult with these people instead of asking God our Creator what He has in our future. That’s what that passage is about.

 

[Flying_Bison]

Deuteronomy speaks of conjuring Ghosts or Spirits and trying to obtain oracles from the dead.

This was in reference to the Pagan practice of trying to get spirits to tell one the future, place curses on people etc.

It has NO and I MEAN NO relation to the Catholic Practice of asking Saints to pray for or with us.

and the word dead could not mean those in Heaven, Why?

People in HEAVEN ARE NOT DEAD.
There is NO passage in the Bible that calls those in Heaven dead. Yep thats right NONE.

The bible actually asks us to pray with and for others.

And the bible, well who gave protestants the Bible. The Catholic Church did when it endorsed the 27 books of the NT and the Septuagint as the OT in 393AD at the Council of Hippo. So what many Protestants are saying is that The Church authorized a book that had materials in it contrary to the Churches teachings of the 1st 400 years of Christianity and gave it out as the Canon of the Church knowing full well that it was opposed to its teachings. Then after the Protestant reformation in the 1500’s a full 1100 years after the Canon was authorized people finaly found the truth that the Church was hinding in a book that it has used as it canon. Seem pretty far fetched. Thats because it is.

So, for asking Saints to pray for us to God. Well, the earliest Christians did it, in fact on St. Peter’s tomb which has been dated to the time that the Apostle supposedly died their is an inscpiption asking Peter to pray for us. Peter most likely died before any of the NT was even written except for Pauls letters and possibly James.
So, I ask people to not make Chistianity what they want it to be. Asking for Saints to pray for us has been around since the time of the Apostles, No one opposed this until 1500. Yes asking Saints to pray for us may seem strange but it is a historically Christian doctorine and it is nowhere in scripture or the letters of the Church fathers forbidden.

So, if one want to asks Saints to pray for them. Go ahead.
If one doesn’t thats OK too. There is nothing wrong with asking a saint to pray for us.

 

[rciadan]

If you insist that they who have had faith in Christ Jesus and lived their lives according to His will are now dead because they have passed from this earth, you are calling Jesus a liar.
Twas He who said in John 3:16 “for god so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten son, that those who believe in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” If god has made this promise, then those who truly believe have life everlasting. This means, by definition that they never die. This means by definition that they are alive this very moment; and if they live, they live with god and commune with Him. When I speak to a saint, I speak to someone as alive as I am, even more so, since they are beyond the point of further sin. They have been made perfectly righteous and the prayer of a righteous man availeth much! I’d rather ask anyone I know to be in heaven to pray for me than anybody here on earth who has not yet achieved that degree of righteousness!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Deuteronomy18:11 . . . nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead.
Clearly that refers to those who have died from this world.
Many of you say that people don’t die and that they are alive in heaven.
I agree that people are alive in Heaven but they DIE to life in this world. Therefore, we refer to them as the deceased.
The passages quoted in Revelations refer to angels and saints praying to God in Heaven FROM Heaven. There’s no one here on earth mentioned that are asking for them to pray for them.
Afterall, you all have said that scripture can’t contradict scripture.

 

[onmywayagain]

In regards to Rev5:1-8, who are the spirits God sent out to this whole world? Also, who are the holy ones that the elders are praying for? The elders must be praying for those who are still on earth. Why would the elders in heaven be praying for those who are already in heaven? Those who are in heaven don’t need the prayers of the elders. It is not rocket science people.

 

[SAHM02]

Deuteronomy18:11 . . . nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead.
Clearly that refers to those who have died from this world.
Many of you say that people don’t die and that they are alive in heaven.
I agree that people are alive in Heaven but they DIE to life in this world. Therefore, we refer to them as the deceased.
The passages quoted in Revelations refer to angels and saints praying to God in Heaven FROM Heaven. There’s no one here on earth mentioned that are asking for them to pray for them.
Afterall, you all have said that scripture can’t contradict scripture.

Okay and what needs to those IN HEAVEN have?
Why do those IN HEAVEN need to pray to God?

 

[SAHM02]

Okay and what needs to those IN HEAVEN have?
Why do those IN HEAVEN need to pray to God?

A few more questions come to mind:

God is with them IN heaven, so why do those IN HEAVEN need to offer prayers of OTHERS IN HEAVEN?

They are seeing God face to face…so why don’t they just talk to HIM?

Also the passage in Revelation state that the “elders” are in heaven, and the “Angels” are in heaven, and the “living creatures” are in heaven.

However Scripture does not say were the “holy ones” are?

Blue S. said they are IN Heaven.
Catholic’s say they are on Earth.

What makes Blue S. interpertation right and the Catholic interpertation wrong?
What makes the Catholic interpertation right and B.S. interpertation wrong?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Okay and what needs to those IN HEAVEN have?
Why do those IN HEAVEN need to pray to God?

They pray to glorify God.

 

[SAHM02]

They pray to glorify God.

How do the Angels presenting the prayers of the holy ones Glorify God?
How do the Elders and Living Creatures presenting the prayers of the holy ones Glorify God?

If the Holy Ones are IN Heaven with God, why aren’t they presenting God with their own prayers to God to Glorify HIM? (sorry I just changed them to read HIM. I realized it was a typo-after posting) Why do the Holy Ones need the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels to present their prayers to God?

Why aren’t the Holy Ones just praying to God directly? Why are they going through the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

How do the Angels presenting the prayers of the holy ones Glorify God?
How do the Elders and Living Creatures presenting the prayers of the holy ones Glorify God?

If the Holy Ones are IN Heaven with God, why aren’t they presenting God with their own prayers to God to Glorify them? Why do the Holy Ones need the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels to present their prayers to God?

Why aren’t the Holy Ones just praying to God directly? Why are they going through the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels?

Anyone in Heaven doesn’t need to pray for themselves. They are in heaven and have everything that they need. They pray simply to glorify God. Prayers glorify God!!!

 

[SAHM02]

Anyone in Heaven doesn’t need to pray for themselves. They are in heaven and have everything that they need. They pray simply to glorify God. Prayers glorify God!!!

Scripture said: That the elders and the living creatures are offering the prayers of the holy ones. (Revelation 5:8)

Scripture said: That the Angel is offering the prayers of the holy ones (Revelation 8:3-5)

So why aren’t the Holy Ones glorifying God themselves? Why are the Holy One are using the Angels, Elders and Living Creatures to Glorify God?

According to the interpretation you are telling me the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels are using the prayers of the holy ones to Glorify God.

Why do the Elders, Living Creatures and Angels need to use the prayers of the holy ones, why don’t they just use their own prayers?

After all if the Holy One are in Heaven then their OWN prayer will do, they don’t need to go through the Elders, Living Creature, and Angels to Glorify God.

Also seeing the Elders, Living Creatures and Angels ARE IN HEAVEN then they don’t need the prayers of the holy ones to Glorify God their OWN prayers would do.

 

[water]

Scripture said: That the elders and the living creatures are offering the prayers of the holy ones. (Revelation 5:8)

Scripture said: That the Angel is offering the prayers of the holy ones (Revelation 8:3-5)

So why aren’t the Holy Ones glorifying God themselves? Why are the Holy One are using the Angels, Elders and Living Creatures to Glorify God?

According to the interpretation you are telling me the Elders, Living Creatures, and Angels are using the prayers of the holy ones to Glorify God.

Why do the Elders, Living Creatures and Angels need to use the prayers of the holy ones, why don’t they just use their own prayers?

After all if the Holy One are in Heaven then their OWN prayer will do, they don’t need to go through the Elders, Living Creature, and Angels to Glorify God.

Also seeing the Elders, Living Creatures and Angels ARE IN HEAVEN then they don’t need the prayers of the holy ones to Glorify God their OWN prayers would do.

I agree with you, SAHM02

Blue Serenity, I have discussed this with another non-Catholic Christian groups and they said those prayers are of those who still live on earth; however, because of the difference of interpretation of scripture, we just don’t agree on the intercession of saints.

Therefore, you can see among non-Catholic Christians, people believe in different things and that lead to so many divisions.

 

[st_ignatius110]

Can you ask for Mary’s help, not knowing if it is the right thing to do?

When I first asked Mary to pray for me I first prayed to God and asked Him to help me. I pretty much told him that I was not for sure that this was ok but I was going to ask Mary to pray for me. I asked Him to help me and guide me to all Truth. Needless to say I am Catholic today praise God!

 

[SAHM02]

I agree with you, SAHM02

Blue Serenity, I have discussed this with another non-Catholic Christian groups and they said those prayers are of those who still live on earth; however, because of the difference of interpretation of scripture, we just don’t agree on the intercession of saints.

Therefore, you can see among non-Catholic Christians, people believe in different things and that lead to so many divisions.

I’m simply trying to understand what Scripture means nothing more, nothing less.

I’m just trying to understand why the Elders, Living Creatures and Angels are offering God the prayers of the holy ones. If it’s to Glorify God then why don’t they just use their OWN prayers?

As for Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 and it’s relation to the these verse in Revelation. Well it is my opinion that it’s like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Deuteronomy is talking about the use of mediums, oracles, horoscopes, etc. Anything that would seek to know the future or to know what life is like on the “other” side. Communication in that way… like trying to contact Aunt Jane and asking her is she forgives you, or asking her is she is happy IN Heaven…is wrong. This is, in my opinion what Deuteronomy is talking about.

That’s it a big difference then: Aunt Jane if you can hear me, ask God that it is His will that I will be heal. That to me is what Revelation is talking about and showing. It’s simply saying, Aunt Jane, ask God that this is His will for me. There is no seeking to know the future. You are not seeking for them to “talk” back to you. You are just saying hey, Ask God that xyz be his will.

It is my opinion that Deuteronomy and Revelation are talking about apple and oranges; they can’t be compared to each other, in my opinion.

Blue S. is right those in Heaven do not need to pray for themselves. However, there is nothing that states that those in Heaven can’t say: God, SAHM02, needs a healing Lord, I ask that it is Your Will they will be healed. There is also nothing that states that the ONLY prayer said in Heaven are prayers of Worship and Glorification.

God Bless eveyone.