Asking Mormon/Restorationist interpretation of some Scripture passages

[lax16]

I have no knowledge of divine revelation as predictive prophecy in LDS.
Before tested any claims, if i was so inclined, I would need verification or certainty that the content was “revelation” and not speculation, conjecture, or even a firm belief expressed with conviction by the churck leader.

But, i have no interest in this subject so my apologies for not debating facts.

Todd - How would you (or any person since you say you are not interested) receive verification or certainty that the “revelation” by your LDS prophet was not speculation, conjecture or a firm belief?

It would seem if a person chooses to follow a prophet they should have a knowledge of his legitimacy as a prophet or at least a knowledge of the LDS definition of divine revelation.

I find it hard to believe that a person like yourself, who is critical of the Catholic Church and her nuns saying “because I said so”, didn’t take the time to ask about the person in the LDS faith handing out teachings because “he says so.”

Isn’t the LDS faith based on continuing revelation? How can you not have an interest in this subject - you are obviously critical of the Catholics in this area and yet give the LDS prophets carte blanche!

 

[Todd520]

Todd - How would you (or any person since you say you are not interested) receive verification or certainty that the “revelation” by your LDS prophet was not speculation, conjecture or a firm belief?

It would seem if a person chooses to follow a prophet they should have a knowledge of his legitimacy as a prophet or at least a knowledge of the LDS definition of divine revelation.

I find it hard to believe that a person like yourself, who is critical of the Catholic Church and her nuns saying “because I said so”, didn’t take the time to ask about the person in the LDS faith handing out teachings because “he says so.”

Isn’t the LDS faith based on continuing revelation? How can you not have an interest in this subject - you are obviously critical of the Catholics in this area and yet give the LDS prophets carte blanche!

Please don’t just twist the discussion.

You asked me about the accuracy of past ‘predictive-prophecy’ - I responded I had no knowledge and nothing to contribute
I also introduced a caution that one should ensure the words were recorded as delivered by the Holy Spirit to predict the future, and not just notes from a sermon.

If you’re real question is “How does the LDS church recognize and flag predictive-revelations derived from the Holy Spirit?”
that is a valid question, again I don’t know the answer and can’t research it now.
It deserves a response from a more seasoned LDS poster, if it is infact your question.

All my reading to date has focused on following the teachings of Jesus and improving how I live my life. All of the conference talks I’ve heard from Church leaders have focused in the same area. Future Prediction is not even on my radar, for any faith.

 

[lax16]

Can you give at least one example of an LDS prophecy that was original and **actually came true? **

Hi Todd - this is in fact the original unanswered question.

 

[Todd520]

Hi Todd - this is in fact the original unanswered question.

Hi lax,
Yes, you have a fair question on the accuracy of LDS ‘predictive-revelation’
I hope one of the other LDS forum members will respond., my reasons for disinterest have been made clear.

I will continue to respond to other questions where I have an interest and some knowledge.

 

[amontoya]

To conclude, I’d like to say, although, apparently the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants are “inventions” by Joseph Smith Jr. and his collegues - they are really worth reading. Not in the Light of a New Relevation but as words from a wise and faithful Man (Joseph Smith Jr) and to deepen your understanding (of course only Partly! - Especially the Book of Mormon is quite good in this respect!) of the Holy Bible. - Especially the Study Guide at the End of the BOM was really quite useful to me - especially because important persons and places of the Bible (besides the BOM and the LuB) are described well.

What is the LuB?

 

[dianaiad]

Todd - How would you (or any person since you say you are not interested) receive verification or certainty that the “revelation” by your LDS prophet was not speculation, conjecture or a firm belief?

It would seem if a person chooses to follow a prophet they should have a knowledge of his legitimacy as a prophet or at least a knowledge of the LDS definition of divine revelation.

I find it hard to believe that a person like yourself, who is critical of the Catholic Church and her nuns saying “because I said so”, didn’t take the time to ask about the person in the LDS faith handing out teachings because “he says so.”

Isn’t the LDS faith based on continuing revelation? How can you not have an interest in this subject - you are obviously critical of the Catholics in this area and yet give the LDS prophets carte blanche!

Lax, I think you may have this question backwards. We LDS types claim that we have the Holy Ghost confirming to us the truth of the things said by our prophets, and the truth of the things written in scripture. We are TOLD to ask God about any and all of this stuff, and to do it constantly.

That’s how we get our ‘testimonies.’

So the question here should be…how do YOU know? I’m not assuming that you don’t get your understanding of Truth any differently than I do, but I will say that I have been told many times, by both Catholic and Protestant believers, that asking God about these things is ‘testing the spirits,’ or something, and is simply wrong.

The attitude seems to be “I believe it because the Bible said it, and I believe that the bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe God wrote it because the bible said He did.”

It does get frustrating.

 

[Esdra]

What is the LuB?

Hi, sorry my mistake. As my mother tongue is German and as I normally read the Restored Scriptures in German, I used the German abbreviation. I meant D&C (Doctrine and Covenants).

LuB stand for Lehre und Buendnisse.

Yours,
Esdra

 

[SirThomasMore]

Lax, I think you may have this question backwards. We LDS types claim that we have the Holy Ghost confirming to us the truth of the things said by our prophets, and the truth of the things written in scripture. We are TOLD to ask God about any and all of this stuff, and to do it constantly.

That’s how we get our ‘testimonies.’

So the question here should be…how do YOU know? I’m not assuming that you don’t get your understanding of Truth any differently than I do, but I will say that I have been told many times, by both Catholic and Protestant believers, that asking God about these things is ‘testing the spirits,’ or something, and is simply wrong.

The attitude seems to be “I believe it because the Bible said it, and I believe that the bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe God wrote it because the bible said He did.”

It does get frustrating.

I do not believe that. I have never heard a Catholic or Christian say that. I think you are confusing the answer we give on this topic with the answer LDS give on proof of the BM “to ask God for proof is testing Him.”

 

[ParkerD]

Todd - This isn’t about word usage. LDS believe their prophets receive revelation from God to lead their church and it keeps changing.

Can you give at least one example of an LDS prophecy that was original and **actually came true? **

Lax16,
I haven’t been following this thread, but noticed that this question seems to have been an important one for you, so I suppose that having noticed it I might as well give a brief response since you have followed up with asking LDS generally.

First, the notion that “it keeps changing” is far different than how I view the situation of LDS prophets giving continuing guidance and firm teachings to the members about how they ought to conduct their lives in this modern world where there is a great deal of misinformation and misguidance by leaders in the world.

LDS prophets are going to 99.999% of the time, confirm the teachings that are already prevalent in the scriptures. By confirming those teachings through reiteration and through personal testimony, they bring to the hearer the opportunity for the hearer to have their own heart “burn” with knowledge that the teachings are true, thus helping the hearer have a firmer resolve to live by the teachings. But the teachings can 99.999% of the time be found right in the scriptures.

Some ask, why then the need for prophets? That rekindling in a hearer, of a “burning” testimony of truth and the teachings of the Bible is not something to be shrugged off. Conviction and firm resolve are helped by a rekindled, “burning” testimony that truth as taught 2,000 years ago is still truth–that we need it as much as they needed it, if not moreso because the world did not get better but instead got worse.

As far as a “prophecy” coming true, often “prophecy” is contingent on actions by the hearers, so when the citizens of St. George (if I remember the account correctly) were told by President Lorenzo Snow to go ahead and plant their seeds in the ground in the midst of a drought, and did so, and prayed for rain, and fasted for help from God, and followed Malachi 3–then within a few days the rains came–that would be a prophecy fulfilled.

When LDS were warned to get out of debt and be conservative in investments by President Hinckley, then the outcome for those who followed was that they protected their investments by conservative strategy in the stock market or other investments in their portfolio. Certainly, the stock market decline could be predicted and was, but listening and taking counsel and acting on it, was a wise thing to do. Sometimes what a prophet teaches is going to be right in line with what others see happening in the world and warn people about.

The difference is in the level of conviction about the truth being taught, such that the person takes diligent heed rather than wondering, “is that really a necessary action I should take?”

Have a good day.

 

[lax16]

Lax, I think you may have this question backwards. We LDS types claim that we have the Holy Ghost confirming to us the truth of the things said by our prophets, and the truth of the things written in scripture. We are TOLD to ask God about any and all of this stuff, and to do it constantly.

That’s how we get our ‘testimonies.’

So the question here should be…how do YOU know? I’m not assuming that you don’t get your understanding of Truth any differently than I do, but I will say that I have been told many times, by both Catholic and Protestant believers, that asking God about these things is ‘testing the spirits,’ or something, and is simply wrong.

The attitude seems to be “I believe it because the Bible said it, and I believe that the bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe God wrote it because the bible said He did.”

It does get frustrating.

Diana - I am not sure if you mean to ask “how do I know what the Pope teaches is correct” or “what the Bible teaches is correct?”

Either way…There is nothing a pope can say that can be in conflict with Church teachings. It has all been said already by Jesus Christ which is why we don’t believe in continuing revelation.
As far as the Bible goes…I spend at least an hour a day reading about early Church history and what the first Christians were writing and doing. They were very busy trying to lead a new Church and, thanks be to God, some put these teachings in writing so that we can get a glimpse of the early Church.

Based on this, since the Early Church Fathers were very close to the very early church, I can know with great certainty that Jesus Christ lived, died, and resurrected and that a number of people began to follow Him. I know that there were leaders working to establish a Church based on what Jesus taught. There are non-religious writings confirming these things as well.

Prior to my obsession with early Church history, I always loved the Bible, going to Church, catechism class, Protestant Bible study (where I learned many great songs and scripture). I guess one could say it was in my heart before it was in my head. I also felt very close to the Blessed Mother when I was a teenager and felt her guidance during my rebellious years, and yet, I don’t remember asking for her help. She was there, in church, whispering in my ear to “be good and to think about how what I do now will affect me for years to come” and also “that our actions are like a pebble tossed into a pond, they ripple on for years and affect many.”

Some can question that I heard the voice of the Blessed Mother (sometimes I wonder it myself), however nothing she said was in conflict with what Jesus taught. Therefore, my personal revelation was just that, personal.

So, in conclusion, I know things to be true from reading, praying, experiencing. My faith continues to grow because I continue to work on it.

 

[Esdra]

Lax16,
I haven’t been following this thread, but noticed that this question seems to have been an important one for you, so I suppose that having noticed it I might as well give a brief response since you have followed up with asking LDS generally.

First, the notion that “it keeps changing” is far different than how I view the situation of LDS prophets giving continuing guidance and firm teachings to the members about how they ought to conduct their lives in this modern world where there is a great deal of misinformation and misguidance by leaders in the world.

[SIGN]LDS prophets are going to 99.999% of the time, confirm the teachings that are already prevalent in the scriptures. By confirming those teachings through reiteration and through personal testimony, they bring to the hearer the opportunity for the hearer to have their own heart “burn” with knowledge that the teachings are true, thus helping the hearer have a firmer resolve to live by the teachings. But the teachings can 99.999% of the time be found right in the scriptures. [/SIGN]

Some ask, why then the need for prophets? That rekindling in a hearer, of a “burning” testimony of truth and the teachings of the Bible is not something to be shrugged off. Conviction and firm resolve are helped by a rekindled, “burning” testimony that truth as taught 2,000 years ago is still truth–that we need it as much as they needed it, if not moreso because the world did not get better but instead got worse.

As far as a “prophecy” coming true, often “prophecy” is contingent on actions by the hearers, so when the citizens of St. George (if I remember the account correctly) were told by President Lorenzo Snow to go ahead and plant their seeds in the ground in the midst of a drought, and did so, and prayed for rain, and fasted for help from God, and followed Malachi 3–then within a few days the rains came–that would be a prophecy fulfilled.

When LDS were warned to get out of debt and be conservative in investments by President Hinckley, then the outcome for those who followed was that they protected their investments by conservative strategy in the stock market or other investments in their portfolio. Certainly, the stock market decline could be predicted and was, but listening and taking counsel and acting on it, was a wise thing to do. Sometimes what a prophet teaches is going to be right in line with what others see happening in the world and warn people about.

The difference is in the level of conviction about the truth being taught, such that the person takes diligent heed rather than wondering, “is that really a necessary action I should take?”

Have a good day.

Hi,

most intersting. The passage highlighted by me, is what I have already written before. - And I am not even a LDS Member!

Have a look here:

…]
I have also been studying the Restored Scriptures for quite a time now. - And I found out that at least 50 % is nothing new (concerning the Book of Mormon) - but either completely copied from the (partly even false translated; I mention: Beersheba) King James Bible and in other parts some actions are simply set in the Land of Nephi - but otherwise the message is completely identical. Just recently I read a passage in the Old Testament and was surprised to find an identical story which I have already read in the Book of Mormon (And this was no literal Quote - like Nephi and Jacob did with Isaiah!). - Nevertheless, I am sorry: I don’t have neither the passage in the Book of Mormon, nor the one of the Old Testamend handy…
…]

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[Caprica]

Actually, it seems like JS DID just say “Jesus made a mistake and I need to rewrite the Holy Scripture.” Witness the JST version of the Bible. And, arguably, the BOM and other works.

Of course Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus made a mistake. The issue is translation, redaction, etc., and not saying that Jesus was in error.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Of course Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus made a mistake. The issue is translation, redaction, etc., and not saying that Jesus was in error.

No offense, but the LDS believe God made mistakes on lots of stuff. That is why doctrine keeps changing

 

[Arandur]

Of course Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus made a mistake. The issue is translation, redaction, etc., and not saying that Jesus was in error.

Interestingly, the JST actually consists primarily of things added, from what I’ve seen and compared, not much changing of the original words, and thus not disputing the original translations.

As far as Jesus making mistakes, well, that opens up the whole can of worms of the Apostasy Theory, whereby the Christ who builds his own Church fails so miserably to do so and breaks so many of his promises and becomes the fool of his own parables.

But please, how about the OP? How come no one wants to comment on the actual Scripture passages? I’m just asking, first, how you interpret them in light of your beliefs. We can discuss those interpretations, or not, afterwards. But I have yet to hear any interpretations that view them in a light that does not contradict the idea of prophets adding things after Jesus, some interpretation of how they might mean that things did not change when Jesus came, after all, but in fact God still speaks to us by prophets in OT manner, and even that the Christian Gospel was known as such before Christ (as claimed in the JST).

Anyone?

 

[LongJourney]

the Christian Gospel was known as such before Christ (as claimed in the JST).

This concept that the Hebrew immigrants to the Americas practiced a form of Christianity in BC times is pervasive within the Book of Mormon. This peculiar belief is at its core, actually anti-Semitic, because it condemns the Jews for having rejected Christianity before Jesus was born. :bigyikes:

What is interesting is that Sidney Rigdon lost a preaching position before the BoM was written, for preaching an anti-Semitic gospel that was offensive to most Christians in the 1820’s!!

 

[dianaiad]

Interestingly, the JST actually consists primarily of things added, from what I’ve seen and compared, not much changing of the original words, and thus not disputing the original translations.

As far as Jesus making mistakes, well, that opens up the whole can of worms of the Apostasy Theory, whereby the Christ who builds his own Church fails so miserably to do so and breaks so many of his promises and becomes the fool of his own parables.

But please, how about the OP? How come no one wants to comment on the actual Scripture passages? I’m just asking, first, how you interpret them in light of your beliefs. We can discuss those interpretations, or not, afterwards. But I have yet to hear any interpretations that view them in a light that does not contradict the idea of prophets adding things after Jesus, some interpretation of how they might mean that things did not change when Jesus came, after all, but in fact God still speaks to us by prophets in OT manner, and even that the Christian Gospel was known as such before Christ (as claimed in the JST).

Anyone?

I guess you missed my post, #14, which directly addressed the problem. Your interpretation of them seems to be that there was to be no more revelation (public revelation, anyway) after Christ. However, the men who wrote the words that you interpret this way were the recipients of just the sort of public revelation. Interpreting their words as you do makes liars of them, in effect.

For instance, take Paul…ANYTHING he wrote. Y’all accept his words AS scripture, authoritative. We have this event on the road to Damascus, where he recieved a most classic 'prophet making" revelation (since receiving direct revelation from God is what makes one a prophet, after all…). So how much sense does it make to interpret his words as proof that there were to be no more prophets after Christ, when by simply speaking of Him, and our acceptance of Paul’s words about Him as authoritative, is absolute proof that there were prophets after Christ?

The difference isn’t that there was to be no more prophecy…it is more like a changing of the guard, in a way; Jesus became the One Who delivers revelation…and He gave (and still gives) quite a bit of that to prophets and apostles whose words reveal Christ to us.

Given this, it seems to me that you have to go back and see that the interpretation you are using is impossible; it becomes circular, and in effect, invalidates the very words you are using to illustrate your point.

 

[Arandur]

I guess you missed my post, #14, which directly addressed the problem.

I guess you missed my post, #19, which responded to your attempt to circumvent my request in the OP with misdirection and no actual answer.

Here’s my reply from post #19:

Nice try. Without even giving your own interpretation of those passages, you can’t get anywhere with accusations. It sounds like your alternative is to say that “Paul received revelation, so his words here about an end to prophetic revelation can’t possibly mean such an end.” How’s that for circular, internally-contradicting?

You need to be more attentive or honest to what I’ve said, and the sense in which I’m meaning “revelation,” so we don’t get back into that problem where Mormons use all senses of revelation at once and confuse every discussion of it, because as soon as a Catholic narrows the sense down, the Mormon switches senses…

To put it simply (as I have several times already), Christ revealed all. Paul is repeating and explaining what Christ revealed. He’s saying that there is no more need for prophets, because Christ came and God spoke to us through him. Once, as Jude clarifies.

Also, Christ revealed things in his time on earth that had always previously been hidden–thus no JST version “pre-Christian Christianity;” Adam and Enoch, Noah and Abraham and others, they did not receive Christ’s full gospel, as if he had already come and died for us and sent us the Holy Spirit (which sending was the first of its kind, not happening in previous ages).

So, taking what I said in context and not confusing the various potential meanings of “revelation,” want to take another stab?

Put simply, why not just give my your interpretation of the passages themselves? What do you think they mean?

 

[Todd520]

Just to be clear, this is my reading comprehension of the verse, and in no way an LDS interpretation

Jude 1:3-5
“Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. [4] For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ. [5] I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards **destroy them **that believed not.”

You must have earnest faith to assure your salvation
Prophecy spoke of evil men, who turned on Christ (and had him killed)
Remember, God saved his people from Egypt and then destroyed the non believers
(i.e. don’t lose your faith or you will be destroyed)

Matthew 11:13
“[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John”

For everything revealed up to and including John

Hebrews 1:1-2
“[1] God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, [2] In these days** hath spoken **to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.”

God has spoken to us through prophets in the past, and most recently by Jesus (heir to the throne)

Luke 24:44-49
“And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. [45] Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.
[46] And he said to them: Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, the third day: [47] And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. [48] And you are witnesses of these things. [49] And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high.”

Jesus has fulfilled the prophecies on his coming
The resurrection has given the ability and duty to teach remission of sins by Christ

Matthew 5:17-18
“[17] Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18] For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Christ came to fulfill prophecy regarding Christ, and all the prophecies on Christ must be fulfilled

 

[ParkerD]

The following concern more passages that seem to contradict the idea in the JST version that Christianity was preached and existed before Christ:

Matthew 13:34-35
“All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables,** I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world**.”

1 Corinthians 2:4-10
“And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in shewing of the Spirit and power; [5] That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought; [7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory: [8] Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But** to us **God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”

Ephesians 3:8-12
“To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, [9] And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the **mystery which hath been hidden from eternity **in God, who created all things: [10] That the manifold wisdom of God may be **made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, ***
[11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”

Colossians 1:25-27
“Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfill the word of God:
[26]** The mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now** is manifested to his saints, 27] To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.”

Thanks, and God bless!

Arandur,
Christ certainly did teach in parables and used them in such a way that those who had the “wisdom of the world” didn’t understand His hidden meanings. There are many parables where this still happens. I have tried over and over to use some of the parables to help someone “get it” about exaltation (entering into the joy of thy Lord, and being made "ruler over many things), but the wisdom of the world will have none of it. It is still hidden, for them. The glory that Christ offered and taught about (in parables), is still lessened to something more acceptable to human understanding.

Moses and Abraham had visions about the eternities and about the works of God in the universe, that were kept hidden from the world, but indeed Christ and John gave more knowledge to the world (still in a hidden way) than Moses and Abraham had done, about the glories available in eternity through the grace offered by Christ. That was in accordance with God’s timing for such things to be revealed to others than a very select few, and yet still be taught in a delicate, reverent, hallowed, and hidden way such that the “wisdom of men” still misses the teaching.

 

[dianaiad]

I guess you missed my post, #19, which responded to your attempt to circumvent my request in the OP with misdirection and no actual answer.

Here’s my reply from post #19:

Put simply, why not just give my your interpretation of the passages themselves? What do you think they mean?

Arundur,

Your OP was specific to LDS and other restorationist beliefs. You highlighted the parts of the scriptures that ‘jumped out at you.’

You stated specifically that those highlighted sections are ‘contrary to restorationist beliefs.’ Then those highlighted sections all indicate your interpretation of them as being ‘proof’ that public revelation ceased. Your italicized comments made that even more clear, and specifically addressed the ‘heresies,’ including Mohammad, ‘various Protestants’ and 'J.Smith."

As I pointed out, to interpret these verses,ANY of these verses, in the way you have is to deny that the men who actually wrote them had any authority to speak for God, since according to your interpretation of them, they were all specifically denying that THEY could tell us anything ‘true…’ After all, after Jesus there was nothing; John was the last prophet…

Then who do these men think they were, that they could say what they did, teach what they did, BE who they were?

If your interpretation stands, they were nobody…just men who were making up stuff, with no more authority to write scripture than today’s shouter on the corner holding up a sign declaring the end of existance as we know it.

But…if they were recievers of revelation, as they claimed to be; if what they wrote is indeed scripture and authoritative, then what they wrote MUST mean something other than what you think it does.

I mentioned that, by the way…perhaps not as comprehensively as you would prefer, but I did. They all are talking about Christ’s fullfilling His role as Messiah and Savior…of Him being the one who reveals TO prophets and apostles. It’s not that everything came to a screeching halt…it’s that we all now look to HIM.

That last verse, from Matthew: if it means what you claim it does, we wouldn’t even know that Christ SAID it, because of course, if nothing else was to happen–if Christ was not to continue to guide His people and the world, then Matthew would not have written anything for us to read.

THAT is the circularity of your argument; that men who claim authority from God…because they were called of Him and recieve revelation that they pass on to us, claim that all such revelation ceased with the advent of Christ.

However, if revelation ceased at that time, then nobody (obviously) recieved any and could not honestly claim to have done so…so those who did were lying.

If it did NOT cease, then the men claiming to have recieved it were lying when they claim that it had ceased.

Either way there is a very big problem…and a false dichotomy that you have set up. Another option is…you are interpreting what they said incorrectly. They are all talking about the gospel, Christ’s role as Savior and Messiah, and that HE would be the Guide from then on.