Assenting to Authority (Protestant vs. Catholic)

[brb3]

I think it is wonderful that you write a lot of interpretation of Scripture in these threads but we need to know what reason you have to think your interpretations (including your interpretation of Scripture that “HS guides every individual to the true interpretation”) are correct. Otherwise as nice as it is, you might be in error and leading others to error, yes? That will not please Jesus and would be injustice to all of us.

So do you have a reason?

Certainly! ‘Reason’ is essential to understanding our inspirations/divine revelations. God feeds us the ‘meat’ of Christianity, slowly. Not all at once,… we couldn’t handle it all at once … it would overpower us !

But, we each advance at our own pace, as we understand what we have received … and are able to move on to new revelations from HS on Christian doctrines/dogmas. And, we progressively get better at reading scripture … ‘for all its worth’ … as a well know Protestant radio teacher says …. Although, he clearly make plenty of mistakes in his interpretation of scripture …:yup:

 

[De_Montfort]

De Mont …

Becuz … as we know [by experience], the HS does not reveal all to us on Day 1 ! Revelation of scripture is progressive … as we need to know, as we can ‘handle the truth’.

When we are Baptized, we get some revelation …appropriate to our situation. Then at our Confirmations, we get additional ‘illumination’ via HS … that really gives us a massive awakening, that really allows us to start making heads/tails out of scripture — able to see the ‘big picture’ !

The Eunuch was at first drawing of HS … not yet able to put it all together. He needed more help, Phillip [advanced in illumination of HS, by Christ], — able to teach him.

But, again … faith preceeds illumination/confirmation in HS — the Baptism of Fire !! This is the when we really make ‘warp-speed’ gains, so great we know they were ‘graced’ to us … beyond our abilities to do on our own, ‘miraculous, supernatural revelations’. That is when we know it is pure grace of God to us … not of our own reasoning. Always helping us to progress, … onwards and upwards to eventual ‘theosis’… and with some help from the BVM and ALL the Saints too

Am I wrong ?

Goya, I am nothing, but thank you for your kind words.

brb3 yes the Holy Spirit guides us to in all (revealed) truth. But we have to ask where does this revealed truth come from? The Church, yes? And we have to say Christ left an authority, and the Catechism proclaims this CCC # 100

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

So the Catholic Church gives us this (revealed truth) it is this foundation that the Holy Spirit guides us.

If I say Scripture means A, and you say B, how can we determine which is right? We have to look to the authority of the Church, who understands and teaches the meaning of Scripture!

 

[Eufrosnia]

Certainly! ‘Reason’ is essential to understanding our inspirations/divine revelations. God feeds us the ‘meat’ of Christianity, slowly. Not all at once,… we couldn’t handle it all at once … it would overpower us !

But, we each advance at our own pace, as we understand what we have received … and are able to move on to new revelations from HS on Christian doctrines/dogmas. And, we progressively get better at reading scripture … ‘for all its worth’ … as a well know Protestant radio teacher says …. Although, he clearly make plenty of mistakes in his interpretation of scripture …:yup:

So given that your Protestant minister makes mistakes, I have three questions from you

1. Why do you continue to believe that the HS guides you to the true interpretation as a valid interpretation of certain Biblical texts?
2. How do you know that he is the one making mistakes and not you?
3. How do you know that you are progressively getting close to the truth or straying further away from it?

 

[brb3]

the Holy Spirit guides us to in all (revealed) truth. But we have to ask where does this revealed truth come from? The Church, yes? And we have to say Christ left an authority, and the Catechism proclaims this CCC # 100

So the Catholic Church gives us this (revealed truth) it is this foundation that the Holy Spirit guides us.

If I say Scripture means A, and you say B, how can we determine which is right? We have to look to the authority of the Church, who understands and teaches the meaning of Scripture!

Yes … If I think B, but u A ---- we search the CCC / writings of ECF’s on that scripture … to see what the HS has inspired the Authorities to declare. Immature, young Christians can’t read scripture with same authority as the mature. We build our understanding upon years of study of them, the CCC, the ECF’s writings,discussions here with the CAF experts, etc.

The Protestant experts often haven’t availed themselves to the full testimony of Catholic understanding on scripture, and often get certain questions dead wrong. They often neglect what the greatest minds in history have written/said on the scripture. How can they put their understanding up against an Origen, Athanasius, Cyril, Irenaeus, Augustine, Ambrose, Aquinas, Benedict, DeMontfort [ha !].

Paul told Timothy he had to ‘study’ … to become ‘approved’, and able to ‘rightly’ decifer the WORD of God. Only the Church leadership have fully availed themselves to ‘all’ the information [inspiration/writings/testimony/tradition/etc] on the ‘tough’ questions of doctrine/dogma. The leaders of the Church are the Authorities, we must respect and listen to their wisdom and reasoned learning.

Is the Protestant BIBLE ANSWER MAN, or the CCC gonna give us the best, fullest answer on any Bible question ? Hank H. often gets it right, but sometimes he is way off target. He or a John MacArthur aren’t the final authority… and it shows in some of their ‘opinions’ on scripture.

 

[brb3]

So given that your Protestant minister makes mistakes, I have three questions from you

1. Why do you continue to believe that the HS guides you to the true interpretation as a valid interpretation of certain Biblical texts?
2. How do you know that he is the one making mistakes and not you?
3. How do you know that you are progressively getting close to the truth or straying further away from it?

I have no one Protestant expert. I’ve listened to alot of them over the years. John MacArthur, Billy Graham, Vernon McGee, Alister McGrath, Alistair Begg, Hank Hanegraaff, Ravi Zacharias, Chuck Swindoll, etc, etc. Each have taught me alot, but none had all the Truth.

Then, my Protestant radio got bought out by EWTN … and I got a full sampling of the Catholic ‘experts’. Their answers were more ‘reasoned’, more historically based/accurate. Their testimony was built on that of the Apostles and ECF’s. I could find no error in what they taught. They opened up an understanding of the OT that the Protestants don’t have. They explained Christ’s Parables better. They presented the ‘complete’ picture of Salvation History, that the Protestants don’t have. They had the ‘Authority’ to back up their teaching/preaching. They presented a true, complete, historical Church … with roots to the Apostles.

And, my ‘personal experience’ in the CC, the Mass, the CCC … all are ‘reinforcing’ a shining city on a hill, a bulwark of truth and morals, a Church with Saints & Guardian Angels, a Holy Family, a Eucharist — not found in the others, a unified ONE, that speaks with the Authority of Christ.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I have no one Protestant expert. I’ve listened to alot of them over the years. John MacArthur, Billy Graham, Vernon McGee, Alister McGrath, Alistair Begg, Hank Hanegraaff, Ravi Zacharias, Chuck Swindoll, etc, etc. Each have taught me alot, but none had all the Truth.

Then, my Protestant radio got bought out by EWTN … and I got a full sampling of the Catholic ‘experts’. Their answers were more ‘reasoned’, more historically based/accurate. Their testimony was built on that of the Apostles and ECF’s. I could find no error in what they taught. They opened up an understanding of the OT that the Protestants don’t have. They explained Christ’s Parables better. They presented the ‘complete’ picture of Salvation History, that the Protestants don’t have. They had the ‘Authority’ to back up their teaching/preaching. They presented a true, complete, historical Church … with roots to the Apostles.

And, my ‘personal experience’ in the CC, the Mass, the CCC … all are ‘reinforcing’ a shining city on a hill, a bulwark of truth and morals, a Church with Saints & Guardian Angels, a Holy Family, a Eucharist — not found in the others, a unified ONE, that speaks with the Authority of Christ.

I understand. But there is obviously still some suspicion of the CC left in you, as I gather from the threads you have created, yes? Because I have seen you argue for salvation by faith alone (Sola Fide) as well as argue against Marian teachings of the Church. Or have you given full assent by faith and will to the authority of the Church in recent days?

So my question to you is what makes you think even the CC has it right on some issues and wrong in others? Or that the believers at a certain time had it right about Scripture etc.?

Also, you did not answer my questions though. You still hold on to a position that “All individuals will be guided by the HS to the true interpretation of Scripture (whether immediately or by a slow convergence)”. My question was on this point and how you came to know it.

So far, your answers has been as follows

1. I can interpret what Scriptural passage X means because the HS guides me to do so correctly
2. I know that the HS guides me correctly because that is what Scriptural passage Y is saying (i.e. my interpretation of Y)
3. But how can you know that you can interpret Y correctly in the first place?

The Church never teaches that every individual is guided by the HS to the true interpretation of passages in Scripture. So what has lead you to hold this truth? Should you not discard that along with the other false teachings of Luther?

 

[brb3]

1. I can interpret what Scriptural passage X means because the HS guides me to do so correctly
2. I know that the HS guides me correctly because that is what Scriptural passage Y is saying (i.e. my interpretation of Y)
3. But how can you know that you can interpret Y correctly in the first place?

4—The Church never teaches that every individual is guided by the HS to the true interpretation of passages in Scripture.

1-- Yes, most of time …since my Confirmation ‘illumination’. Before this indwell of HS … I really struggled, questioned everything !!
2-- Yes, the Bible promises in # of places that the HS will guide the Christian in understanding scripture … but, not always by ourselves alone. We need to cross-check our understanding of with what the experts and Church says.
3-- Practice, study, prayer, using scripture to interpret scripture, etc … has proven very dependable. Again, not 100 % … but maybe 95 % of time. thats an A grade !!

 

[Eufrosnia]

1-- Yes, most of time …since my Confirmation ‘illumination’. Before this indwell of HS … I really struggled, questioned everything !!
2-- Yes, the Bible promises in # of places that the HS will guide the Christian in understanding scripture … but, not always by ourselves alone. We need to cross-check our understanding of with what the experts and Church says.
3-- Practice, study, prayer, using scripture to interpret scripture, etc … has proven very dependable. Again, not 100 % … but maybe 95 % of time. thats an A grade !!

I am not sure how this is getting past you. Look at #3 above. I am asking how you know a Transcendent claim i.e.

Holy Spirit guides me to the true interpretation of Scripture.

Practice does not tell you this because you don’t see Transcendent claims and their Transcendent results. If the Bible says, “you are saved by faith alone”, there is no empirically verifiable evidence that this is true. If you say that the Bible is against praying to saints, there is again no evidence that this is true. If anything, there is evidence that Mary and other saints are powerful intercessors because many credit their answered prayers and miracles they experience to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary or Saints…

So the idea of practice verifying your methodology does not make much logical sense, does it?

Also, what does it mean to say it works 95% of the time? What do you compare your results against? The fact that “HS will guide you to the true interpretation of Scripture” is not an empirically verifiable fact since all of the interpretations speak of Transcendent claims. Do you see the problem?

Can you answer the questions I asked, keeping that important point in mind? If not, can you tell me which part confuses you and I would be happy to clarify.

 

[brb3]

A–So the idea of practice verifying your methodology does not make much logical sense, does it?

B–Also, what does it mean to say it works 95% of the time? What do you compare your results against? The fact that “HS will guide you to the true interpretation of Scripture” is not an empirically verifiable fact since all of the interpretations speak of Transcendent claims. Do you see the problem?

C–Can you answer the questions I asked, keeping that important point in mind? If not, can you tell me which part confuses you and I would be happy to clarify.

A— not to u.

B --Compared against Catholic teachings ! If I could hit 100 % … I wouldn’t need the Catholic dogmas … But, the Church is essential. Understanding that last 5 % is a team effort …

C – Just did !

 

[Eufrosnia]

A— not to u.

B --Compared against Catholic teachings ! If I could hit 100 % … I wouldn’t need the Catholic dogmas … But, the Church is essential. Understanding that last 5 % is a team effort …

C – Just did !

Um. You certainly have not answered it my friend. Let me ask again.

-The Church does not teach that HS guides every individual to the true interpretation of Scripture.
-You claim such a truth.
-How did you come to know such a truth exists?
-All you have answered with so far is to present Scripture passages that you think conveys the idea that HS guides every individual to the true interpretation of Scripture.
-But that itself is an interpretation of Scripture. So that reasoning is not valid, yes?

To ask a new question

-You state that 95% is from the Church and 5% is team effort
-How did you come to know such a truth? It that Biblical? What if doctrine is 100% from the Church and 0% from our own heads?

 

[brb3]

A—All you have answered with so far is to present Scripture passages that you think conveys the idea that HS guides every individual to the true interpretation of Scripture.
-But that itself is an interpretation of Scripture.

B—How did you come to know such a truth? It that Biblical? What if doctrine is 100% from the Church and 0% from our own heads?

A–Not an interpretation. But, the ‘literal’ meaning.

B-- Using Paul’s advice — 2 Tim. 2:15, ‘naming and claiming’ scripture, letting HS interpret the scriptures, letting scripture interpret scripture, direct revelation, etc.

 

[Eufrosnia]

A–Not an interpretation. But, the ‘literal’ meaning.

Well no, you still have to conclude that the literal meaning you comprehend is indeed the actual meaning, yes?

Jesus says eat my body and drink my blood. Is that literal? How come you don’t run with that meaning but seem to think that some passages imply a literal level of infallibility when interpreting Scripture?

B-- Using Paul’s advice — 2 Tim. 2:15, ‘naming and claiming’ scripture, letting HS interpret the scriptures, letting scripture interpret scripture, direct revelation, etc.

So can you point out to me where the Bible says that 95% of the teachings on faith and morals is from the Church and 5% is from team effort? I don’t see that or such numbers in the passage from Timothy. So is it not true that you are pulling these numbers out of nowhere?

Is it not true that you could be very wrong, considering the HS might not be guiding you to the true interpretation of Scripture in the first place and that you have constructed your own religion at this point with some Catholic elements in it?

 

[brb3]

Is it not true that you could be very wrong, considering the HS might not be guiding you to the true interpretation of Scripture in the first place and that you have constructed your own religion at this point with some Catholic elements in it?

Impossible …
Scripture verifies HS & Christ are ‘faithful & true’ … testimony of the 12 also support, also Paul’s testimony. Also Mary’s …

We must ‘test’ the spirits …using our ‘reason’. Both faith and reason must be used, and prayer and meditation. Again, we don’t instantly … or even quickly advance to certitude on scripture interpretation. Its a skill that we develop. Practice and study … and learning to decipher the ‘will’ of the Lord. We may at first attach our minds to a possible explanation … but, with more study and prayer, discover it was not correct. We all believe a certain amount of error and heresy … and as we mature, we have to reject the errant and embrace the correction the HS reveals to us. Its a ‘molding’ process. Christ has us all on the ‘potters’ wheel. We either are being shaped towards an ultimate ‘theosis’ of ‘perfect’ knowledge … or we are stubbornly snared by our errant ideas / ways and won’t let go of them.

Did Job have it all figured out … or was God still teaching him via testing, and wishing to ‘bless him’ 10x more ? Did David master life as King, and become above reproach …or was he forever learning about his mistakes and needing to be reshaped ? Was Paul perfected before his travels to Rome … or was he still struggling to reach even higher, in his understanding, revelations and service to the Way. Do we call the young the ones with the ‘wisdom’ … or the ones beyond 60 ? How often does the HS chose a young Pope for his successor to Peter ?

Ask Benedict [by an email to him] … if he is not still learning . Ask Francis is he is not still on the ‘potters’ wheel… and having to leave some beliefs/ideas behind, in favor of new understandings the HS and scripture reveal to him. Those who discover and learn to decipher the truth HS from God … will progressively advance in knowledge and wisdom. They are the ‘workmanship’ of the Lord … and the ‘election’ that can hear the ‘small’ voice of God, in the midst of all the cacaphony of chaos. Discover the ‘spirit of truth’ in this life … and let him mold you, slowly, into the likes of a Job, David, Stephen, Peter or Apollos. Apollos readily accepted the ‘reproving’ instruction and ‘shaping’ of HS via hands of Paul…and he was ‘illuminated’.

Am I wrong ?

 

[Eufrosnia]

Impossible …
Scripture verifies HS & Christ are ‘faithful & true’ … testimony of the 12 also support, also Paul’s testimony. Also Mary’s …

This really makes little sense because all of the claims by Paul, Mary etc as far Protestants are concerned is from Scripture. So you are back to square one. You are just giving it different names but in the end, you are interpreting Scripture to justify your ability to see the true interpretation of Scripture. Is that not the case? Can you give me testimony that is not from Scripture by these individuals that say you have such an ability to interpret Scripture?

We must ‘test’ the spirits …using our ‘reason’. Both faith and reason must be used, and prayer and meditation. Again, we don’t instantly … or even quickly advance to certitude on scripture interpretation. Its a skill that we develop. Practice and study … and learning to decipher the ‘will’ of the Lord. We may at first attach our minds to a possible explanation … but, with more study and prayer, discover it was not correct. We all believe a certain amount of error and heresy … and as we mature, we have to reject the errant and embrace the correction the HS reveals to us. Its a ‘molding’ process. Christ has us all on the ‘potters’ wheel. We either are being shaped towards an ultimate ‘theosis’ of ‘perfect’ knowledge … or we are stubbornly snared by our errant ideas / ways and won’t let go of them.

Ok, you are again making a lot of Transcendent claims as to how things ought to be when it comes to reading the Bible. But those themselves are your interpretations. St. Thomas Aquinas, probably wiser than you or me, interpreted Scripture differently from a John Calvin or Luther. He spoke very highly of the authority of the Church and assent to it. Who is right in that case?

Did Job have it all figured out … or was God still teaching him via testing, and wishing to ‘bless him’ 10x more ? Did David master life as King, and become above reproach …or was he forever learning about his mistakes and needing to be reshaped ? Was Paul perfected before his travels to Rome … or was he still struggling to reach even higher, in his understanding, revelations and service to the Way. Do we call the young the ones with the ‘wisdom’ … or the ones beyond 60 ? How often does the HS chose a young Pope for his successor to Peter ?

It does not matter because all of that is your interpretation as well. You have chosen to interpret the story of Job, lack of young Popes, story of David and perhaps many more that you didn’t care to mention to justify your ideas. But those are INTERPRETATIONS BY YOU. Since we have no guarantee that you have such an ability, what exactly is the difference between YOU and a Buddhist who has decided to interpret empirical evidence and his feelings to construct a philosophical framework of the Transcendent?

The fact of the matter here is that you are in denial of the fact that you have to assent to the Church first because it is the reasonable authority. Instead, you are really trying to do your own thing using bits and pieces of Catholic teaching (“Scripture is the Word of God” for one)

Ask Benedict [by an email to him] … if he is not still learning . Ask Francis is he is not still on the ‘potters’ wheel… and having to leave some beliefs/ideas behind, in favor of new understandings the HS and scripture reveal to him. Those who discover and learn to decipher the truth HS from God … will progressively advance in knowledge and wisdom. They are the ‘workmanship’ of the Lord … and the ‘election’ that can hear the ‘small’ voice of God, in the midst of all the cacaphony of chaos. Discover the ‘spirit of truth’ in this life … and let him mold you, slowly, into the likes of a Job, David, Stephen, Peter or Apollos. Apollos readily accepted the ‘reproving’ instruction and ‘shaping’ of HS via hands of Paul…and he was ‘illuminated’.

There is a difference between “learning” and being in “error”. You are in error regarding things that have been settled. That is problematic. Pope do not teach error.

You can ask Pope Francis or Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI on who has the final authority. They will all respond that the Church is the final authority on interpretation of Scripture. That is not an understanding that can change or will change.

So why are you thinking differently? Do you think that all these great men got it wrong and Luther, Calvin & company got it right?

Am I wrong ?

Yes, I am afraid you are. You don’t seem to want to address the question made to you. Instead, you appeal to examples of others who might who might have done the same. But others doing the same is first of all not reason for you to do the same because all of you maybe wrong. Second, you are also interpreting what others did, so you don’t really know if your interpretation of the Divine/Transcendent rules behind the actions or governing them is correct. Given that you are probably wrong on the idea of HS guiding you to the true interpretation of Scripture, it seems more reasonable to think that you are probably wrong on those too.