Assuming there is no such thing as time, how do you describe motion in a hypothetical universe?

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Absolute zero is an unreachable point.

Since there is no heat at absolute zero, there would also be no entropy, and possibly no measurable time.

But we could never experience this, as our heads would not function at absolute zero, either.

ICXC NIKA
At absolute zero, all molecular activity ceases. There is nothing to measure and nothing to measure with. Measuring is work and at absolute zero work isn’t possible. Like you said, even your brain ceases to function!!
 
At absolute zero, all molecular activity ceases. There is nothing to measure and nothing to measure with. Measuring is work and at absolute zero work isn’t possible. Like you said, even your brain ceases to function!!
Actually, your head will stop working far short of absolute zero… Like at 80 F; but you already knew that:)

The thing is, we have no way of knowing whether what we know as time exists at absolute zero. Possibly it does not, as there is no process and no entropy. All clocks require both.

But since we can’t put our mind there and can’t perform science there, it’s an unknowable.

ICXC NIKA
 
If time does not exist then why does a clock give accurate measurements? And what does it measure? Its delusional to think that time does not exist. What is the persistence of your existence? Do you believe distance exists (like a physical distance, ie. miles)? What does a clock measure but the length of existence. You don’t think length applies to existence, as in the concept of time? If there was no time then how do you exist from one moment to the next? Don’t you perceive any passage of time within your mind? Don’t you know you’ve been alive for more than a second (a length of time that measures existence)?
S.H.,
Believe me when I say that I understand your objections. That is because I share them. Perhaps some background would help. In this I shall assume that you’ve not studied physics, and will present my thoughts in that context.

I do accept the existence of space, and of objects which we perceive to exist in space. I also make the common observation that the relative position between objects can change.

The act of such commonly observed change is called motion, and is treated by the human eye and mind as a continuous phenomenon.

When the behavior of particles is observed at the atomic level, the evidence that motion is continuous simply disappears. (Wikipedia must have a piece about “quantum tunneling.”)

Were you to study QM (quantum mechanics) more deeply, and take a university level course in it, as I did long ago, you would find that the conventional interpretation of motion with respect to time and space does not correlate with reality. In reality, there are discontinuities.

QM currently operates under a set of paradigms, such as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, with which I strongly disagree (on religious principles, of all things!) There were and are real physicists who share my disagreement, for a variety of reasons, Einstein and Max Planck (the founder of QM) included.

Despite its success, QM remains a questionable theory. It conflicts with General Relativity, with treats time as a continuum, which also works. Somewhere between them there is a problem.

IMO either space or time are quantized. If time is the quantized culprit, then the notion of time as we perceive it must be modified. BTW there is an interesting non-mathematical book on the subject which would advance your understanding of the issues: The Twin Dimensions — Inventing Time & Space, by Geza Szamosi. It is well written and readable.

I can answer a few of your questions w/o too much fuss.
  1. Clocks do not give accurate measurements. All that a given clock knows or measures is a sequence of internal actions which we recognize as a “tick.” Were you compare the ticks of a Timex or Cuckoo clock against those of a cesium atom (the current physics “standard,”) you would find variations. If you used the standard to measure the earth’s 24 hour day, the original timekeeping standard, you would find the actual length of the day changing, daily.
Moreover, if you take a precise clock mounted at sea level and move it to a hillside, you will find that it ticks away at a different rate.

A clock measures a sequence of actions between its own natural ticks. That’s all. We interpret these ticks as a measurement of continuous objective time.

But ask yourself this: If time is continuous, why can we only measure it in quantized units— the “ticks?”

All clocks are digital devices. If time is continuous, why is it impossible to construct an analog clock?
  1. I cannot make sense of your question, “What is the persistence of your existence?”
  2. I think that spatial distance applies to existence. But distance is both mathematically and physically different from time. Time is not even included in some of the core equations of physics, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics.
  3. From the perspective of the normal human mind, time is entirely subjective. Conventionally clocked time does not exist for me when I sleep or am under anesthesia (or for you). Nor does it exist for someone in a hypnotic trance. Relative time has been shown to be a function of age, in that subjectively we measure each day as a percentage of previous days alive. (You’ll experience this as you age, and can observe it in children. This is why young children do not want to sleep— each hour lost to unconsciousness, for them, represents a far greater percentage of their lifetime than yours.)
Most people find that spent in a checkout line or L.A. traffic jam, or an unimaginative Sunday sermon, proceeds more slowly than time spent lovemaking, or the tail end of a down-to-the-wire football game.

Athletes who compete in fast-moving sports commonly report that with experience, the game slows down for them.

Then, consider your own mind. You have had new ideas— meaning, concepts which you did not previously know. Or you have had sudden understandings of a problem on which you’ve worked. Notice that what is common to these moments of insight is that your understanding appears instantly, fully formed and without words. (To retain the concept in your time-dependent brain you must wrap words around it, but that is done later.)

What we “know” is that when examining the objective cosmos, a sequence of events occurs. “Time” is an entirely artificial method of assigning a systematic way of measuring them.

Please read this a few times so as to understand it fully before replying. Do some of the invited research, using Wikipedia or library sources. In other words, think about these concepts before replying from your current subjective understandings of them. Thank you.
 
Motion equals change.
Time measures change.
No motion, no change, no time.
Simplistic.

What if change does not require motion?

Time does not measure change. Our clocks, our timekeeping devices, use change to measure time. You have this exactly backward.

Your argument is circular, making it a tautology, I think, or at the very least, non-definitive.
 
I’m going to go way out on a limb and suggest time does not exist. A quick thought.

Now you pro’s can ignore…I really find this subject interesting and cannot resist.

We know that our perception of time is relative to the motion of our planet, solar system, galaxy ect.

We also know that there would be a very massive quantity of real matter flying around the universe at an infinite or full range of available motion within the universe.

In fact there would be real particles hurling toward the inner portion of an imploding sun. This great force of gravitational pull is the strongest force known in the universe. From the real perspective of particles in this real situation, due to a dilation of time, our universe would not be here.Our sun would have in fact completed burning up all of its gas’s and be another black hole.

If we offer a real relative perspective to all available matter in motion , I’m thinking that
every moment ever to be in the universe, would be in answer or in fact comprise real relative perspectives every bit as potent and true as ours.

Our perspective is simply one of many which comprise the whole. Our time is an not an illusion due to a defined state of motion, but… it is only a refined portion of a whole reality due to our focus in observance set in our specific motion.

Now…what about non motion in answer to the other reality of extreme necessary for the whole…? In other words where is the relative perspective for the beginning, it would obviously be a state of non-motion or relative anti-motion.

It may be that the beginnings of the expansion and following thrust created a tunnel of timelessness, or non relevance such as the empty funnel at the mouth of rushing water going down the tub…or perhaps the center of a hurricane…at the mouth or outset of the initial thrust of the expansion.

Now we’ve covered all time from beginning to end in real perspective. Every moment is accounted for, from a true perspective. The only absolute perspective would be the accumulation of all explained above in comprising a total true birds eye perspective…

.time then does not exist from this true birds eye perspective, the ultimate real view of all…Absolute reality would be void of perimeter allowing for a true perspective of the totality of the universe. Time only exists as a relative portion then of a timeless universe. The perceived measure defines the individual notice inhibited by the neccesity of peculiar motion. The universe has no time, it simply is…that is relative to the absolute true objective view of creation.
 
greylon,

show me just how far the rabbit hole goes.
To do so at the personal level would require that I know something about the physical attributes, mind, and curiosity level of the inquiring rabbit.

Time is, IMO, a subject which is intimately intertwined with physical theology-- the very nature of God and their relationship to physical reality. This is not a subject for every casually curious little bunny. That’s why I wrote a book generalized for rabbits, moles, ferrets, and the occasional wart hog— out maybe in March.
 
This great force of gravitational pull is the strongest force known in the universe.
There are currently four physical forces which are recognized as such by conventional physicists.
  1. The electromagnetic force.
  2. The strong nuclear force.
  3. The weak nuclear foce.
  4. Gravity.
Of these, gravity is the weakest.
 
There are currently four physical forces which are recognized as such by conventional physicists.
  1. The electromagnetic force.
  2. The strong nuclear force.
  3. The weak nuclear foce.
  4. Gravity.
Of these, gravity is the weakest.
Then how come my book by Paul Davies says that the gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is the greatest force known in the universe…thats what I am describing in that sentence
 
Then how come my book by Paul Davies says that the gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is the greatest force known in the universe…thats what I am describing in that sentence
It is also my understanding that Gravity is the weakest force. Perhaps his statement is conditional on other factors.
 
It is also my understanding that Gravity is the weakest force. Perhaps his statement is conditional on other factors.
The gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is the strongest force known in the universe…refute…?

So my backyard theory goes like this…motion describes a specific time. All motion describes all time , therefore time does not exist see above more carefully explained…

so we are actually expanding and contracting at the same time which explains the oddity in disorder vrs order.
 
The gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is the strongest force known in the universe…refute…?
I am not saying that you are wrong, and i don’t know how to refute you. I am just saying that it is a general fact of physics that gravity is the weakest force. Like i said in my last post, perhaps his statement is conditional on other factors. Perhaps in “general” gravity is the weakest force, but that there are special conditions or contexts, like the center of an imploding sun, where it is strong relative to mass.

Gravity is doing a balancing act. If there is too much of it, the universe would simply collapse on itself. It has to be the weakest force, otherwise the universe cannot exist as we know it. How can the universe expand if gravity is the strongest force in the universe?

I hesitate to say that Davies is wrong, But he certainly is not right given the context in which you present his claim.
 
I am not saying that you are wrong, and i don’t know how to refute you. I am just saying that it is a general fact of physics that gravity is the weakest force. Like i said in my last post, perhaps his statement is conditional on other factors. Perhaps in “general” gravity is the weakest force, but that there are special conditions or contexts, like the center of an imploding sun, where it is strong relative to mass.

Gravity is doing a balancing act. If there is too much of it, the universe would simply collapse on itself. It has to be the weakest force, otherwise the universe cannot exist as we know it.
Do you know what an imploding star is? or the reason why all matter goes hurling towards an imploding star…for the third frustrating time I am not talking about simple gravity but the force of an imploding star …the gravitational pull…or Sch radius- circle …whatever they call it.
 
Simplistic.
No, not simplistic, just simplified.
What if change does not require motion?
Impossible. At the very minimum, change requires motion at the sub-atomic level. If there is none, there is no change and no time.
Time does not measure change. Our clocks, our timekeeping devices, use change to measure time. You have this exactly backward.
Even backward, it’s still the same thing. Time=Change and Change=Time.

Time seperates physical events. Clocks represent the change in the physical universe by showing us change measured in human invented increments. Yes, clocks utilise change to demonstrate (quantify) change. Clever little things, aren’t we?!
Your argument is circular, making it a tautology, I think, or at the very least, non-definitive.
Phooey. 😉 Thermodynamical ‘Arrow of time’ says otherwise!
 
Do you know what an imploding star is? or the reason why all matter goes hurling towards an imploding star…for the third frustrating time I am not talking about simple gravity but the force of an imploding star …the gravitational pull…or Sch radius- circle …whatever they call it.
What ever the answer is, you cannot deny the fact that if gravity was the strongest force in physical reality, the universe would collapse on itself. So however you choose to answer the problem you cannot do so by denying the necessary truth that gravity is the weakest force.
 
What ever the answer is, you cannot deny the fact that if gravity was the strongest force in physical reality, the universe would collapse on itself. So however you choose to answer the problem you cannot do so by denying the necessary truth that gravity is the weakest force.
I cannot believe or understand why you are doing this and will have to wait for a more precise deconstruction of my idea which I thought on tonight for interest:thumbsup:

If sincere read my posts over
 
I cannot believe or understand why you are doing this and will have to wait for a more precise deconstruction of my idea which I thought on tonight for interest:thumbsup:

If sincere read my posts over
I don’t know why you are questioning my sincerity.🤷

Do you deny the obvious fact that if gravity was the strongest force in physical reality, the Universe would never expand in the first place? There would not be a “Big Bang”. There would not be any events to speak of; there would just be an extremely dense point, a singularity, if anything at all. Thus any talk of time or change or motion, would be meaningless.

I don’t see why you would have difficulty in understanding that fact?🤷
 
Do you deny the obvious fact that if gravity was the strongest force in the universe that therefore the universe would never expand in the first place? There would not be any events to speak of; there would just be an extremely dense point, a singularity, if any thing at all.
I am referring to the attraction force at the center of an imploding star…the strongest force know in the universe…it is referred to as a gravitational attraction at the center of the Sch radius or something.

now if you were sent up in a spaceship toward a star which has burned up all of its gas your spaceship would be pulled in at such a rate of speed that if you looked out the window back at our solar system…guess what MOM…it would not be there due to the time dialation…which relative to you in the craft would only be a fraction of a second…these are sound scientific facts re relativity

that force pulling in your craft toward the center is the strongest force known in the universe or the book I read by physicist Paul Davies called About Time is in absolute error…which I highly doubt on such a elementary issue.
 
The gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is the strongest force known in the universe…refute…?
Gravity is the weakest force in the universe, about 36 orders of magnitude weaker than the strong force that holds atomic nuclei together. The gravitational pull at the center of an imploding sun is so strong simply because it is an enormous sum effect of all the atoms and particles present.
 
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