Assumption of Mary? Didn't we just make this up?

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I have absolutely NO reservations about Mike_D30’s sincerity in asking this question and this is a very good topic that has brought some very good answers. However, (you knew this was coming didn’t you?) some of you have displayed a lack of charity in your responses to Mike that I suggest that you fix if you intend to post in Apologetics.

The understanding of our faith is an work in progress, and many of us are still “playing catch-up”, so it does no one any good to encounter hostility (especially with someone who is sincere in his questions).

I leave you with the following passages of God’s Word.
Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.

1st Peter 3:15: but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16: and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

I could close this, but I’m choosing not to for now.
I will be reviewing this thread regularly.

As E.T. said. “Beeeeeeeee Gooooood!”

Note: Some posts have been deleted to clean up the thread.
 
Hi Mike. Welcome back. Just have a little patience with some these Jerks that are not so charitable.

If you really want a really good resource on Mary?

Try this for only a dollar. It a discussion about Mary with Patrick Madrid and Marcus Grodi. It is a great work:

catholicity.com/maryfoundation/truthaboutmary.html

you will have to order 3 cds in order to make it worthwhile.
 
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Mike_D30:
I’ve recently come back to the Catholic Church mainly because it’s the Church of my youth, and there are so many things I love about it. BUT! I’ve really grappled with many doctrines that I seem to get a definite NO from God about…

The topic. The asscension of Mary and being named Queen of Heaven. Didn’t we just make this stuff up? There’s nothing in the writings of the Early Church Fathers (which is how I handled the other Marian Dogmas’ … I feel in my heart that this was simply made up, I can’t find any other explanation to this.
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Made up by who?

Note that the Eastern Orthodox also accept the Assumption of Mary. See my Common Ground page and the EO links here:

catholic-view.com/commonground.html

ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
On this EO link scroll down to 9. The Mother of God
Receiving the Holy Spirit once more at Pentecost, she was able to die without sin. Because of her special role in the Divine Plan (“economy” or “dispensation”), she was taken into the heavens, body and soul. She now sits at the foot of her Son, making intercession for all those who implore her mercy. The Orthodox Church honors the miracle of her “assumption” with a feast on 15 August; likewise, the followers of the Pope.
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The Assumption of Mary wasn’t just made up by some Pope. The combined Catholic/EO view makes Mary’s Assumption the overwhleming view of Christendom.
 
Just FYI so no one picks on Mike3DO. He made a post thanking for information sent by PM that got deleted. The topic was left open for other discussion however I think it sufficient not to attack Mike’s understanding any longer or progress in the faith.

Further discussion may lead others to a better understanding though.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Hi Mike;

I also remember hearing somewhere about how the scripture readings for the mass commemorating the assumption have been in place since the early days, and that a liturgy commemorating her assumption has been practiced by Catholic and EO churches from about the 4th century (at least that’s as far back as the liturgies have been traced). I’ll try to track down the source, but it may have been a set of CDs by Scott Hahn called “Answering Common Objections” - a great source with two whole CDs addressing Marian doctrine. These are easy to listen to in the car while driving to work…

I know where you are coming from as I too stayed away from the church through most of my 20s, and had to do some pretty serious study and prayer on some teachings. (But that’s a story for another thread.) Keep asking the hard questions. 👍

One other thought regarding Marian doctrine: Keep in mind that it is ALL Christ-centered. The Assumption, the Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven, the Immaculate Conception, and the Virgin Birth are ALL corollaries of Christ’s divinity. Mary did not earn any of it. She was *graced * with all of it by her Son who perfectly fulfilled the commandment to Honor Your Father AND Your Mother.

-Peace.
 
Did anybody mention yet that the Catholic Church isn’t “Sola Scriptura”, meaning “the Bible alone”? :confused:

It’s times like these when doo doo doo dooooooo! Sacred Tradition comes into play! Obviously if every single aspect of God’s teaching and God’s church had to be written down, that would be a seriously, seriously LONG book. So some of our faith was written down and some of it has been passed down through the ages.

❤️
 
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MariaGorettiGrl:
Did anybody mention yet that the Catholic Church isn’t “Sola Scriptura”, meaning “the Bible alone”? :confused:

It’s times like these when doo doo doo dooooooo! Sacred Tradition comes into play! Obviously if every single aspect of God’s teaching and God’s church had to be written down, that would be a seriously, seriously LONG book. So some of our faith was written down and some of it has been passed down through the ages.

❤️
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Good point MGG;

I agree that we should not discount Tradition. But sometimes when discussing the issue with our protestant brothers and sisters we have to meet on common ground. In such cases, it is valuable to point out that nothing in Marian doctrine is contradictory to Scripture.

But I agree with you that there are thousands of years of doctrinal development that can also support the Marian dogmas.

-Peace
 
Mike D –

Please, please, please, read this book: Daughter Zion: Meditations on the Church’s Marion Belief by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict)!

This is a profound book which explains in theological and philisophical terms the source and nature of the Church’s Marian beliefs.

After reading this book, I no longer doubted any of the Church’s Marian beliefs but instead came to understood their truth, beauty, and importance.

I strongly encourage it.

In the love of Jesus and Mary,
Francisco
 
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Mike_D30:
I’ve recently come back to the Catholic Church mainly because it’s the Church of my youth, and there are so many things I love about it. BUT! I’ve really grappled with many doctrines that I seem to get a definite NO from God about. Among them:

Predestination
Marian Dogmas (including the asscension)
Purgatory
People calling Mary Co-Redemptrix of which I’ve been involved in a few topics.

I’ve read almost every book I could find, and apologetic articles on this stuff and I can’t get my arms around it. Then when I seem to get to a point where I’m like whateve,r I’ll look past it and just keep trucking I get hit with something else like a Cardianl endorsing a book called “Meditation on the Tarot”.

I came back to the Chruch with huge fire, but since after so much research and reading that flame is basically a bic lighter now.

But enough about my spirituality issues,and compalining. The topic. The asscension of Mary and being named Queen of Heaven. Didn’t we just make this stuff up? There’s nothing in the writings of the Early Church Fathers (which is how I handled the other Marian Dogmas’, theer’s no doubt that they lvoed Mary and showed her much reverence, and anyone who didn’t let them be anathema, that is HUGE for a guy with my type of mind), there’s zip until about 600 A.D. that even points to the idea of Mary being consumed bodily to Heaven. I feel in my heart that this was simply made up, I can’t find any other explanation to this.
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Hi Mike,

Congrats on coming back into the Church! I, too, have struggled with some of the Marian dogmas but have come to fully accept them as an irrevocable part of my Faith. They reveal many things about Jesus’ nature and His love for His mother. We did not just make this up or make this up as we go along. As you know, we, as Catholics, believe that Mary is the mother of God and believe in the ressurection of the body. Since Mary was hand selected by God the Father to bear His son, He was showing us how we could be a perfect Christian. In essence, He gave us the perfect role model. Mary had free will… and followed the Father’s will and her Son’s will completely. She was the first Christian and is the one who gave Our Lord His flesh. As Jesus is truly God and truly man, so is Mary the mother of God. This does not exalt Mary, but further emphasizes the divinity of her Son. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is believed by all apostolic Christians, Catholic & Orthodox alike. So obviously, Catholics didn’t just make this up but it is a crucial part of our faith and a DE FIDE DOGMA of the Catholic Church. It’s also interesting to note that no city on the face of the Earth claims the relics of the Blessed Virgin but we do have cities claiming the relics of the twelve Apostles. This in and of itself does not constitute proof, but does not make sense that no city would lay claim to Mary’s bones. We know that in the Old Testament God assumed Elijah and Enoch so this idea is not totally foreign to Scripture. Mary’s Assumption into Heaven is our hope… because as Christians we all have hope in ressurection of the body. This is not some supersticious Catholic belief but is a critical Christian dogma because it shows us God’s mercy and our hope. When we call Mary “our hope”, we do not call her hope because we believe that she can save us, but we call her “our hope” because in her assumption WE ALL HAVE HOPE to be with God. I recommend getting Pope Benedict’s book, Daughter Zion. By the way, the title “co-redemptrix” is not a de fide dogma, but we do believe that we are all redeemers with Christ (not that we save ourselves, but that we either accept or reject our salvation)because we all either accept Christ or we reject Him . That is all that title is saying, while a little over-zealous, that is the nuts and bolts of it.
Please check this out here: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html.
And Father Lukefahr’s Catholic Home Study Service and grab a copy of “Christ’s Mother and Ours” for free. I also like another poster highly recommend Marcos Grodi & Patrick Madrid’s CD from the Mary Foundation.

God bless!
 
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franciscomarto:
Mike D –

Please, please, please, read this book: Daughter Zion: Meditations on the Church’s Marion Belief by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict)!

This is a profound book which explains in theological and philisophical terms the source and nature of the Church’s Marian beliefs.

After reading this book, I no longer doubted any of the Church’s Marian beliefs but instead came to understood their truth, beauty, and importance.

I strongly encourage it.

In the love of Jesus and Mary,
Francisco
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Thank you for this!! I had been trying to decide which of Pope Benedict’s books would be first on my list of “must reads”, & now I have put this on my wish list at Amazon for the next “good read”!!👍
 
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Mike_D30:
I’ve read that, and that article is not very reaffirming. There’s no confirmation from the ECF’s about the asscension of Mary, I’ve read quite a bit on them because of my unease with Mrian Dogmas. This isn’t to take shots at me, or beliefs, but to answer a question.

How the miracle of the Earthly body of the mother of our Lord asscending into Heaven didn’t make it into the New Testament as a witness to Mary’s role is tough to reconcile since they were written more than likely way after the event occured. Not only that but it isn’t spoken of until some 600 years later as a literal event in Christian history.
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Mary did not ascend into heaven she was assumed by the grace of God into heaven. John 3:13, “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven” The last Mary was mentioned in scripture was in Acts 1:14 and Gal 4:4
Acts was written after the synoptic gospels and therefore it is reasonable believed that she was still alive when John wrote his gospel. Remember that Mary was placed into Johns care by Jesus (John 19:26-27),so if she had died before he wrote his Gospel and his epistles it is reasonable to think that he would mention somewhere in his writings

Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), Enoch Gen 5:24 (Heb 11:5; Sirach 44:16)and Moses (Jewish tradition) were taken up into heaven so for the Mother of God it is a fitting reward.
Also in Revelation 11:19 the Ark of the Covenant is seen in heaven
verse 12:1 is connected to 11:19 by the conjunction “and”.
Verse 12:1 points to Mary as the ark of the covenant (a position supported by the Fathers of the Church) and being in heaven bodily.
The Church approved appearances of Mary at Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima throughout the ages gives support to her assumption.
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Mike_D30:
Not only that but it isn’t spoken of until some 600 years later as a literal event in Christian history.
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“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon [AD 451], made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven” (St John of Damascus, in Migne’s *Patrologia Graeca Cursus Completus *96:1).
The fact there is no hint in history of a claim to the possession of her relics is a good point in favour of the doctrine. Also the appearance of Mary

Pax

Brian
 
The Oriental Orthodox Churches (not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox Churches) also teach that our Holy Mother was assumed into heaven after she fell asleep (natural death of the body). Oriental Orthodoxy and the remainder of Christendom (modern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy) have been in schism since the Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century. The doctrine clearly predates the year 600.
 
This is from the book “All Generations Shall Call me Blessed”

“Scripture is silent about the death of Mary. We don’t know where or when or how she died. There is no mention of her assumption into heaven in the writings of the first five centuries. Yet within the faith of the Church there developed the conviction that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. From the sixth centruy onward this conviction of faith was strong in the universal church, in both East and West.”

That’s where I got the idea of nothing about until the year 600, from this book. It was an exceprt, just so we can get off that issue.

I don’t know, I’ve tried and I just can’t get around the Marian Dogmas. I don’t know how many books I can read, or articles, or radio archives I can listen too, or how much I can pray about it without any answer, or if it is an answer it’s the opposite.

This is from this topic (and I’m not picking on you Semper Fi, you made a lot of good points, and I’m sure to those who accept Marian Dogmas, this is a great point, just one that’s tough for me.):
" As Jesus is truly God and truly man, so is Mary the mother of God. This does not exalt Mary, but further emphasizes the divinity of her Son"
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That is tough for one to grasp, and at the same time see how we are not exalting Mary to the same stature as Christ.

For those of you strong in your faith God Bless, but not everyone is. Not everyone was blessed to be raised in a home with parents that catehchized them, or brought them up in the faith, made them attend Mass, explained the doctrines. But when you come back in and can’t come to grips with certain issues, which make you worry that you are commiting a possible offense against God, you can start to become depressed even. I think I’ll take a break from this, slow it down and start at square one again.

Thanks for all of your replies.
 
Mike, you really should think and pray about the issue of relics. The fact that nobody ever claimed to have a relic of Mary, or her tomb, and that nobody fought over either tombs or relics, is simply astonishing. Pray about this so that you can realize how big a deal this really is! :cool:
 
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Mike_D30:
That is tough for one to grasp, and at the same time see how we are not exalting Mary to the same stature as Christ.
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It’s because it doesn’t really have that much to do with Mary. It just comes down to the fact that either Mary is the mother of God or Jesus is not God. The entire point of the title is to defend Chrit’s divinity.
 
Here is a quote from something I wrote, just consider this. I understand how tough all the different dogmas can be, I had the same problem, especially with Mary. I had tons. I worked through most of them, but there was one I couldn’t figure out for myself. But I accept it on faith, because I realized that I knew that the Catholic Church had about 95% of what they taught right, so I just took the other 5% on faith. I think many converts have said similar things. Just consider this, it may help to eliminate all the confusion:
There are many different issues seperating Catholics and Protestants today. Each is extremely important in its own way. Ought we to base our doctrines on the Bible alone? Is a man saved by faith alone, or isn’t he? Was Mary conceived without sin? These are clearly very important issues, and issues that are not to be taken lightly. Most of them may have an impact on our eternal destination, but if one really loves God, getting them right is important even if they didn’t. With all the complexities of these issues, a person hardly knows where to begin and where to turn to determine the truth.
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However, there is one doctrine that really stands out above the rest, and that is the Eucharist. The importance of the Eucharist cannot be understated. If Catholics are wrong, they are guilty of daily committing what is by far the most stupid act of idolatry in the history of man by worshipping a small piece of bread. On the other hand, if Protestants are wrong, they mock and denigrate God, and pass up the chance to be with Him every day, while Catholics have the strongest testimony to the truth of their beliefs possible: God Himself. This question, then, could be a great aid to those trying to decide who just don’t have the ability or the time to go through an endless supply of theological books, documents, and arguements.
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So then, the pivotal, all important question is simply, is the Eucharist really Jesus Christ? Does the evidence support this view?
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Mike, I didn’t read all the posts so this may have been suggested already. Read Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn. You can also listen to the talks between Mike Agulara (spelling) and Hahn that are offered in the EWTN audio library.
 
Have you read the eycyclical Munificentissimus Deus, and if so, what did you think?

And, if Mary died and was buried, why does the Church have no knowledge of the whereabouts of her grave? How can it be that such information was never written down and is now lost?

Finally, what would be gained by making this up? No doctrine rises or falls based on whether Mary was assumed. There would have to be a very good reason to make it up after 1950 years, and have to take the inevitable flak from the Protestant world. What was that reason?
 
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