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Tomster
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Why would all of this even concern certain Protestants who believe the unbiblical error once they have been saved they are always saved?
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T
Tomster
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Moon,So unless a Catholic believes in the (asserted) bodily Assumption of Mary a Catholic cannot be saved? We know from the Scriptures that men are saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but when, and to whom, was it divinely revealed that salvation faith includes Mary’s alleged Assumption as well? This, of course, would declare that all Protestants who believe in Christ but do not believe in Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven are damned if they refuse to believe it.
In the Gospel account of our Lord’s Transfiguration we read that he was “transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.” (Matthew 17:2) It is the Traditional teaching of Catholic theology that this splendor was the normal quality of Christ’s body, the body that Mary gave him. His human soul, by reason of its hypostatical union with the Eternal Word, enjoyed the beatific vision. But the connatural effect of this vision is the glorification, the transfiguration of the body. However, Christ as man, for the purposes of the Incarnation, restrained the effect, and only once, in his Transfiguration, allowed that glory to be seen.
So is it with the risen body as it was with the body of Christ in his Transfiguration. By virtue of the gift of glory the Blessed (remember, now, that verse from Scripture, “all generations shall call me blessed”) enjoy the beatific vision, and the power and splendor of the vision embrace not the soul only, but also the body. St. Paul says: “We all, beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 3:18)
You really should take a deeper look into your own ideas regarding Incarnational theology.
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Desertsailor
Guest
You were wrong and your bishop was right and you ought to go tell the people you misinformed that you were wrong.David, thank you for your reply, but I must admit I find it deeply disturbing.
The “biblical” objection to the Assumption is often raised by Protestants who are thinking about converting to the Catholic Church. I have used the answer provided by Catholic Answers to respond to that objection, and found it effective; in fact some of the people who raised that objection and received that answer from me did eventually enter the Church. But now my bishop comes along and declares that answer to be wrong, and claims to bind me as a matter of faith to accept his answer, which directly contradicts the one I gave out in good faith to others. Should I now go back and tell all those people that I gave them bad information and perhaps they should reconsider? Should I also tell people not to trust what Catholic Answers says, because my bishop says their answers are wrong? Or does it not really matter what nonsense we throw at people as long as it convinces them to enter the One True Church, and then once they’re safely inside we can straighten them out with the real story? (In the commercial world this tactic is known as “bait and switch.”)
It seems to me you are suggesting that the truth in such matters depends on what diocese you live in–that Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven in some dioceses but not in others–or, worse, that objective truth has nothing to do with it, and that we should earnestly believe whatever our current bishop offers as “the teaching of the Church” and then just as earnestly believe the opposite when the next bishop comes along with some different teaching. This comes perilously close to the old anti-Catholic accusation that in the final analysis, Catholicism boils down to a single rule: “Shut up and do as you are told.” That may have been true in the past, and apparently my bishop thinks it ought to be true today, but one of the reasons I became Catholic was that I thought the Church as a whole had finally moved beyond this. Perhaps I was wrong.
Paradise is the Garden of Eden. This is where Enoch and Elijah are at this time. They never died so they can’t be in Heaven which is a different place than the Garden of Eden.
.
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Desertsailor
Guest
Catholics are required to believe the dogmas of the faith.So unless a Catholic believes in the (asserted) bodily Assumption of Mary a Catholic cannot be saved? We know from the Scriptures that men are saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but when, and to whom, was it divinely revealed that salvation faith includes Mary’s alleged Assumption as well? This, of course, would declare that all Protestants who believe in Christ but do not believe in Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven are damned if they refuse to believe it.
It doesn’t really matter what protestants believe they aren’t as saved as they think they are.
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Sardath
Guest
More importantly, if I was wrong then so is Catholic Answers, which is telling people exactly the same thing I was telling them. So should Catholic Answers retract its statements on this subject and put a notification on their home page informing everyone of their error? And maybe they should also inform the diocese which gave the imprimatur and nihil obstat to such a grievously erroneous misstatement of the Catholic faith. Shame, shame.You were wrong and your bishop was right and you ought to go tell the people you misinformed that you were wrong.
So when Jesus told the “good thief”, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,” he was saying that the two of them would link up in the Garden of Eden that evening? And where, pray tell, is the Garden located? According to Genesis 4:16, Cain “went away from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden,” so Eden must have been somewhere on planet Earth; but we’ve now mapped the entire planet from space and no one has yet discovered Eden. Perhaps you can enlighten us all and give us its GPS coordinates so biblical scholars can go and pay Enoch and Elijah a visit. I know I have a few questions for them, and I’m sure others do too.Paradise is the Garden of Eden. This is where Enoch and Elijah are at this time.
So when Pope Benedict XII defined ex cathedra that “the souls of all the saints … have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels”, he was just blowing hot air?They never died so they can’t be in Heaven which is a different place than the Garden of Eden.
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Sardath
Guest
So if, in your opinion, Protestants “aren’t as saved as they think they are”, just how saved (or not) are they?It doesn’t really matter what protestants believe they aren’t as saved as they think they are.
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Desertsailor
Guest
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church with a few exceptions. Very few.So if, in your opinion, Protestants “aren’t as saved as they think they are”, just how saved (or not) are they?
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moondweller
Guest
Ok, but now try answering my question.Moon,
In the Gospel account of our Lord’s Transfiguration we read that he was “transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.” (Matthew 17:2) It is the Traditional teaching of Catholic theology that this splendor was the normal quality of Christ’s body, the body that Mary gave him. His human soul, by reason of its hypostatical union with the Eternal Word, enjoyed the beatific vision. But the connatural effect of this vision is the glorification, the transfiguration of the body. However, Christ as man, for the purposes of the Incarnation, restrained the effect, and only once, in his Transfiguration, allowed that glory to be seen.
So is it with the risen body as it was with the body of Christ in his Transfiguration. By virtue of the gift of glory the Blessed (remember, now, that verse from Scripture, “all generations shall call me blessed”) enjoy the beatific vision, and the power and splendor of the vision embrace not the soul only, but also the body. St. Paul says: “We all, beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 3:18)
You really should take a deeper look into your own ideas regarding Incarnational theology.
D
Desertsailor
Guest
I’m sorry that you can’t accept correction. If Catholic Answers says Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven they are wrong too and they should admit it.Sardath;6864198]More importantly, if I was wrong then so is Catholic Answers, which is telling people exactly the same thing I was telling them. So should Catholic Answers retract its statements on this subject and put a notification on their home page informing everyone of their error? And maybe they should also inform the diocese which gave the imprimatur and nihil obstat to such a grievously erroneous misstatement of the Catholic faith. Shame, shame.
Is it possible that the word ‘paradise’ can have more than one meaning. Please notice Jesus did not tell Dismus that he would be in Heaven.So when Jesus told the “good thief”, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,” he was saying that the two of them would link up in the Garden of Eden that evening? And where, pray tell, is the Garden located? According to Genesis 4:16, Cain “went away from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden,” so Eden must have been somewhere on planet Earth; but we’ve now mapped the entire planet from space and no one has yet discovered Eden. Perhaps you can enlighten us all and give us its GPS coordinates so biblical scholars can go and pay Enoch and Elijah a visit. I know I have a few questions for them, and I’m sure others do too.
I suppose you can ask the Angel with the firey sword to let you in the Garden of Eden and to stop hiding it from us mortals.
‘Paradise’ has more than one meaning.So when Pope Benedict XII defined ex cathedra that “the souls of all the saints … have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels”, he was just blowing hot air?
I’m sorry you were wrong and I’m sorry you can’t admit it. You might try praying for humility.
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Sardath
Guest
As it turns out, my bishop–the same one who “corrected” us on Enoch and Elijah–also has an official opinion on this subject. That opinion says:There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church with a few exceptions. Very few.
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.” Further, he states that the Church “has held, does hold, and is bound to continuously hold” this position, and that it specifically applies to Protestants, “despite the separation Protestant Communities have made with the Catholic Church”.
Do you disagree?
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moondweller
Guest
Because it presents a totally different perspective on salvation. According to the Catholic view, am I, a Protestant who does not believe in the alleged bodily Assumption of Mary, damned? IOW, am I damned for not believing something that is not revealed in God’s written Word? For not believing in something other than the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ?Why would all of this even concern certain Protestants who believe the unbiblical error once they have been saved they are always saved?
But to answer your question, I’m not as concerned as I am curious since, yes, I do believe that I am saved and eternally secure in that salvation - according to the Scriptures.
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Desertsailor
Guest
I agree with him completely. The problem is: How many Protestants have committed mortal sins and not received absolution?As it turns out, my bishop–the same one who “corrected” us on Enoch and Elijah–also has an official opinion on this subject. That opinion says:
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.” Further, he states that the Church “has held, does hold, and is bound to continuously hold” this position, and that it specifically applies to Protestants, “despite the separation Protestant Communities have made with the Catholic Church”.
Do you disagree?
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Desertsailor
Guest
You mean "according to **your understanding **of the Scriptures.Because it presents a totally different perspective on salvation. According to the Catholic view, am I, a Protestant who does not believe in the alleged bodily Assumption of Mary, damned? IOW, am I damned for not believing something that is not revealed in God’s written Word? For not believing in something other than the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ?
But to answer your question, I’m not as concerned as I am curious since, yes, I do believe that I am saved and eternally secure in that salvation - according to the Scriptures.
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Sardath
Guest
How, in your opinion, do Protestants receive absolution from mortal sin? Or is it simply not possible for them?The problem is: How many Protestants have committed mortal sins and not received absolution?
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moondweller
Guest
Oh, another question. Not ALL Catholics believed in the alleged bodily Assumption of Mary prior to it being declared official dogma by your church leadership. So what about those Catholics who died not believing in it? Are those Catholics damned? Or does damnation apply only to those after it was declared official dogma? Is the gospel message by which one is saved through faith progressive (contrary to Jude 3)?Why would all of this even concern certain Protestants who believe the unbiblical error once they have been saved they are always saved?
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moondweller
Guest
No, really, according to the Scriptures. But we can’t get into that here.You mean "according to **your understanding **of the Scriptures.
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moondweller
Guest
Are the names of those “exceptions” documented? Or is there a short list of these “few” exceptions by which one might qualify?There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church with a few exceptions. Very few.
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Sardath
Guest
Cheap shot, logically fallacious, etc., etc., etc. Please spare us this sort of nonsense.I’m sorry that you can’t accept correction.
And if you believe Catholic Answers is wrong, then you should tell them. “If your brother sins …” and all that.If Catholic Answers says Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven they are wrong too and they should admit it.
It’s certainly possible. Aquinas cites Augustine on this point: “Three general opinions prevail about paradise. Some understand a place merely corporeal; others a place entirely spiritual; while others … hold that paradise was both corporeal and spiritual.” But note that Augustine is careful to present these as merely “opinions”, not as definitive teaching. Similarly, Aquinas does not state authoritatively that Enoch and Elijah are actually resident in the earthly paradise, but only that “some say” this. That’s pretty weak support for your position. In other words, you are repeating mere theological opinion–and disputed opinion at that–as if it were a definitive truth of the Catholic faith. It’s not.Is it possible that the word ‘paradise’ can have more than one meaning.
True. But then according to Aquinas, what Jesus actually meant was, “Today you will be with me in hell.”Please notice Jesus did not tell Dismus that he would be in Heaven.
This is pure invention. There is no reason whatever to believe that Eden is, or ever was, hidden from mortals; if it had been, there would be no reason for God to have originally stationed cherubim and “a flaming sword which turned every way” to “guard the way to the tree of life”, since no one would have been able to see it anyway. Aquinas has a completely different explanation for why it is inaccessible: that its location is “shut off from the habitable world by mountains, or seas, or some torrid region, which cannot be crossed; and so people who have written about topography make no mention of it.”I suppose you can ask the Angel with the firey sword to let you in the Garden of Eden and to stop hiding it from us mortals.
Of course that makes no sense given today’s comprehensive knowledge of global geography–which only goes to show once again that even the greatest saints and doctors didn’t always know what they were talking about, and sometimes just made things up because they had no actual knowledge to rely on.
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Tomster
Guest
Exactly! Thank goodness his understanding is not infallible and carries absolutely no authority. His understanding is just an opinion and an erroneous one at that.You mean "according to **your understanding **of the Scriptures.
It is interesting that many Protestants do not believe in OSAS.
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Desertsailor
Guest
They can received the sacrament the same way Catholics do. Of course they need to join the Church either now or on their death bed.How, in your opinion, do Protestants receive absolution from mortal sin? Or is it simply not possible for them?
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