Assumption of mary

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Protestant objection to the Assumption, his two main points:

The New Testament was written over a period of approximately sixty-five years and not so much as one verse says anything about the bodily assumption of Mary. If this event actually occurred, then at least one of the New Testament writers should have told us.

What Catholicism has actually done in perpetuating this man made dogma of the Assumption, is to give a status to Mary that is not to be given to anyone but the Lord Jesus. Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserve only for God. Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. Phil. 2:10-11 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Let your protestant friend know that there are oceans of things practiced and believed by Christians of every stripe that are not explicitly lined out in unambiguous terms by scripture alone.

Examples:
The Holy Spirit - part of the Godhead?
How often do we do anything (Eucharist/communion, alms collection)
Alter calls (As a protestant, they’ll know what that is)
Singing or Instruments used in service
Baptism - Requisite in salvation?
When the pastor dies/quits/moves, how is a new one picked?
Do Children worship separately from adults?

This list is by no means exhaustive. So what your friend needs to realize is that the living Church continues to this day through the Church, not the Bible.

Biblical canon wasn’t established until the 4th century. Even then, the canon that was created differs from the one they use. So how did the church even function in a pre-canon world if it’s to be exclusively Bible-based?

Introduce your friend to the concept of Apostolic Succession and let them know THAT’S how the authoritative church continues to this day.

In sum, their question isn’t wrong. Their perspective that gives RISE to that question is wrong. Show them that as gently as you can.
 
Let your protestant friend know that there are oceans of things practiced and believed by Christians of every stripe that are not explicitly lined out in unambiguous terms by scripture alone.

Examples:
The Holy Spirit - part of the Godhead?
How often do we do anything (Eucharist/communion, alms collection)
Alter calls (As a protestant, they’ll know what that is)
Singing or Instruments used in service
Baptism - Requisite in salvation?
When the pastor dies/quits/moves, how is a new one picked?
Do Children worship separately from adults?

This list is by no means exhaustive. So what your friend needs to realize is that the living Church continues to this day through the Church, not the Bible.

Biblical canon wasn’t established until the 4th century. Even then, the canon that was created differs from the one they use. So how did the church even function in a pre-canon world if it’s to be exclusively Bible-based?

Introduce your friend to the concept of Apostolic Succession and let them know THAT’S how the authoritative church continues to this day.

In sum, their question isn’t wrong. Their perspective that gives RISE to that question is wrong. Show them that as gently as you can.
So true.

There is so much that Christians do that rely on tradition, that we don’t even think about, but just accept.

Sunday worship is another example. The scriptural support for Sunday worship is not strong enough to convince Seventh Day Adventists that they shouldn’t worship on Saturday.

The idea that Jesus died on a cross is also a tradition. Jehovah’s Witnesses assert He didn’t die on a cross-shaped instrument, because what our bibles translate as cross they say doesn’t mean cross at all, but simple upright stake.

Scripture doesn’t convince Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses nor Arians of the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, they use scripture to argue against it.

And as for how often the Eucharist should be celebrated, the Jehovah’s Witnesses only do it once a year, on Nisan 14. Of course they also don’t call it the Eucharist.

However, tradition, or the memory of apostolic teaching and practice, supports all of these beliefs and practices, including baptism by pouring. So when tradition is forgotten, a lot of what we think of as Christianity is lost as well.
 
Protestant objection to the Assumption, his two main points:

The New Testament was written over a period of approximately sixty-five years and not so much as one verse says anything about the bodily assumption of Mary. If this event actually occurred, then at least one of the New Testament writers should have told us.
Why is that the case? 🤷

The New Testament writers were focused on Jesus, remember? And the NT doesn’t mention the deaths of Peter or Paul, the two greatest apostles, or the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem which effectively ended the sacrifices of the Jews commanded by God.

Not everything made it into the NT.
What Catholicism has actually done in perpetuating this man made dogma of the Assumption, is to give a status to Mary that is not to be given to anyone but the Lord Jesus. Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserve only for God. Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. Phil. 2:10-11 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
:rolleyes:

You need to share the following with your “Bible Christian” friend:

On Honoring Mary as Imitators of Christ

Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”

As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.

At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed”. Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation.

The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary - Jesus was. We simply obey the word of God which calls us to “be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly beloved children.” (Ephesians 5:1)
 
So true.

There is so much that Christians do that rely on tradition, that we don’t even think about, but just accept.

Sunday worship is another example. The scriptural support for Sunday worship is not strong enough to convince Seventh Day Adventists that they shouldn’t worship on Saturday.

The idea that Jesus died on a cross is also a tradition. Jehovah’s Witnesses assert He didn’t die on a cross-shaped instrument, because what our bibles translate as cross they say doesn’t mean cross at all, but simple upright stake.

Scripture doesn’t convince Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses nor Arians of the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, they use scripture to argue against it.

And as for how often the Eucharist should be celebrated, the Jehovah’s Witnesses only do it once a year, on Nisan 14. Of course they also don’t call it the Eucharist.

However, tradition, or the memory of apostolic teaching and practice, supports all of these beliefs and practices, including baptism by pouring. So when tradition is forgotten, a lot of what we think of as Christianity is lost as well.
Hi, Mack!

…what I find interesting is that because they have rejected Apostolic Succession (which includes Oral Tradition and Church history) they are forever seeking to “recreate” or “recapture” the “early Church.”

Sadly, their objective is unattainable since they are rejecting Christ’s Design in their futile efforts to construct, through sheer interpretation of Scriptures, their “genuine church” design.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
So true.

There is so much that Christians do that rely on tradition, that we don’t even think about, but just accept.

The idea that Jesus died on a cross is also a tradition. Jehovah’s Witnesses assert He didn’t die on a cross-shaped instrument, because what our bibles translate as cross they say doesn’t mean cross at all, but simple upright stake.
:nope:

Cross or Torture Stake?
Clayton F. Bower Jr.
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/cross-or-torture-stake-0
 
Hi, Mack!

…what I find interesting is that because they have rejected Apostolic Succession (which includes Oral Tradition and Church history) they are forever seeking to “recreate” or “recapture” the “early Church.”

Sadly, their objective is unattainable since they are rejecting Christ’s Design in their futile efforts to construct, through sheer interpretation of Scriptures, their “genuine church” design.

Maran atha!

Angel
Yes, since the early Church was an embattled minority, they think if they construct a church that is an embattled minority, they are therefore the true church!
 
Yes, since the early Church was an embattled minority, they think if they construct a church that is an embattled minority, they are therefore the true church!
Hi, Mack!

…the difference being that the Church was in her Infancy (Eleven, Mary and a few others); converging to the huge number of 200 and 3000 added right at Pentecost… in addition, the battle they faced was persecution heresy as they sought to Build the Body of Christ… the modern construct is working backwards and sideways moving from Christ’s Design to confessions and theater-style movements… none of them being the mirror of the early Church… and as hard as they try the best they can muster is reinvention of the wheel!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, Mack!

…the difference being that the Church was in her Infancy (Eleven, Mary and a few others); converging to the huge number of 200 and 3000 added right at Pentecost… in addition, the battle they faced was persecution heresy as they sought to Build the Body of Christ… the modern construct is working backwards and sideways moving from Christ’s Design to confessions and theater-style movements… none of them being the mirror of the early Church… and as hard as they try the best they can muster is reinvention of the wheel!

Maran atha!

Angel
Also, an infant is supposed to grow up!
 
Also, an infant is supposed to grow up!
Hi, Mack!

…exactly!

…seems to me that those who keep claiming that they want to “go back to the early Church” or that" it is not found in Scriptures" are completely oblivious to the terms “organic” and “growth.”

…yeah, the Apostles gathered at the Temple and in synagogues…

…yeah, Scriptures do not speak on Church Doctrine, Functions, and Language (definitions and terms)…

…no Scriptures are not devoid of all definitions (we find both the Inception of the Church and her earliest definitions [Mission, Activities, Formations, and even Hierarchy])…

…no Scriptures do not state that everything is contained in Scriptures nor that the Church growth (maturity) has been reached…

…most importantly, we can see that the Church evolves (changes/grows) right from the text of Sacred Scriptures as Christian Worship and Fellowship are fine tuned and defined (no more gathering at the Temple/synagogues, no more Judaic practices such as circumcision, no more unknown group [the Way]…); we also find that Doctrine is being set as Epistle after Epistle call for Unity in One Baptism, One Faith, One Lord, One God; and very specific Christology is formed: the Lord’s day, Breaking of the Bread, gathering about the Apostles, obeying the Teachings of the Apostles to do everything in Christ Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
… those who keep claiming that they want to “go back to the early Church” or that" it is not found in Scriptures" are completely oblivious to the terms “organic” and “growth.”

Just as the prophetic light of revelation advanced from Abraham, through the Patriarchs and the Prophets to the Apostles, as articles of faith transmitted to us, so has doctrine advanced in the post-apostolic age by the sanctifying light of theological faith. All Catholic dogmas (Trinitarian, Christological, and Marian) make explicit and uncover the real meaning of what had hitherto been veiled in the deposit of faith: sacred Scripture and Tradition. Dogmas serve to explain explicitly what lies implicitly in the written and unwritten word of God. Under the light of infallible divine assistance promised by Christ to his Church (Jn 16:12-13), the passage from implicit to explicit gives birth to dogma. The dogma of the Assumption is a corollary of what we have below. It’s root and principle lie here in the written testimonies of the early Church Fathers.

Mary, the Mother of God

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]

(Isa 7:14; Luke 1:35,43)

Mary, the New Eve

The Word will become flesh, and the Son of God the son of man—the Pure One opening purely that pure womb, which generates men unto God."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 33, 12 [A.D. 188]

(Isa 66:7; Lk 1:38, 41-45; 11:27-28; Jn 2: 3-5; 19:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:45)

Mary, Ark of the New Covenant / Spouse of the Holy Spirit

“At that time, the Savior coming from the Virgin, the Ark, brought forth His own Body into the world from that Ark, which was gilded with pure gold within by the Word, and without by the Holy Ghost; so that the truth was shown forth, and the Ark was manifested…And the Savior came into the world bearing the incorruptible Ark, that is to say His own body”
St. Hippolytus, In Dan.vi. [ante A.D.235]

(Lk 1:35 - Ex 40:34; Lk 1:41-42 - 2 Sam 6:14; 1 Chron. 15:28; 16:4; Lk 1:43 - 2 Sam 6:9; Lk 1:56 - 2 Sam 6:11; Ps 132:8; Songs 2:10; Rev 11:19-12:1)

“For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself, like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man.”
Ibid., Treatise on Christ and anti-Christ, 4 [A.D. 200]

**Mary, the “Immaculate Conception” **

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?”
St. Ephraem of Syria, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]

(Gen 3:15; Lk 1:28, 46-49 - Isa 61:10)

**APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF
POPE PIUS XII
MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS
DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

November 1, 1950**

"And so, to cite some other examples, St. Germanus of Constantinople considered the fact that the body of Mary, the virgin Mother of God, was incorrupt and had been taken up into heaven to be in keeping, not only with her divine motherhood, but also with the special holiness of her virginal body. "You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust

"Moreover, the scholastic Doctors have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos. Similarly they have given special attention to these words of the New Testament: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women,” since they saw, in the mystery of the Assumption, the fulfillment of that most perfect grace granted to the Blessed Virgin and the special blessing that countered the curse of Eve.

"Along with many others, the Seraphic Doctor held the same views. He considered it as entirely certain that, as God had preserved the most holy Virgin Mary from the violation of her virginal purity and integrity in conceiving and in childbirth, he would never have permitted her body to have been resolved into dust and ashes.

"Consequently it seems impossible to think of her, the one who conceived Christ, brought him forth, nursed him with her milk, held him in her arms, and clasped him to her breast, as being apart from him in body, even though not in soul, after this earthly life. Since our Redeemer is the Son of Mary, he could not do otherwise, as the perfect observer of God’s law, than to honor, not only his eternal Father, but also his most beloved Mother. And, since it was within his power to grant her this great honor, to preserve her from the corruption of the tomb, we must believe that he really acted in this way.

“Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination, immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.”

:heaven:
 
Just as the prophetic light of revelation advanced from Abraham, through the Patriarchs and the Prophets to the Apostles, as articles of faith transmitted to us, so has doctrine advanced in the post-apostolic age by the sanctifying light of theological faith. All Catholic dogmas (Trinitarian, Christological, and Marian) make explicit and uncover the real meaning of what had hitherto been veiled in the deposit of faith: sacred Scripture and Tradition. Dogmas serve to explain explicitly what lies implicitly in the written and unwritten word of God. Under the light of infallible divine assistance promised by Christ to his Church (Jn 16:12-13), the passage from implicit to explicit gives birth to dogma. The dogma of the Assumption is a corollary of what we have below. It’s root and principle lie here in the written testimonies of the early Church Fathers.

Mary, the Mother of God

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]

(Isa 7:14; Luke 1:35,43)

Mary, the New Eve

The Word will become flesh, and the Son of God the son of man—the Pure One opening purely that pure womb, which generates men unto God."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 33, 12 [A.D. 188]

(Isa 66:7; Lk 1:38, 41-45; 11:27-28; Jn 2: 3-5; 19:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:45)

Mary, Ark of the New Covenant / Spouse of the Holy Spirit

“At that time, the Savior coming from the Virgin, the Ark, brought forth His own Body into the world from that Ark, which was gilded with pure gold within by the Word, and without by the Holy Ghost; so that the truth was shown forth, and the Ark was manifested…And the Savior came into the world bearing the incorruptible Ark, that is to say His own body”
St. Hippolytus, In Dan.vi. [ante A.D.235]

(Lk 1:35 - Ex 40:34; Lk 1:41-42 - 2 Sam 6:14; 1 Chron. 15:28; 16:4; Lk 1:43 - 2 Sam 6:9; Lk 1:56 - 2 Sam 6:11; Ps 132:8; Songs 2:10; Rev 11:19-12:1)

…He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself… uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man."
Ibid., Treatise on Christ and anti-Christ, 4 [A.D. 200]

**Mary, the “Immaculate Conception” **

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?”
St. Ephraem of Syria, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]

(Gen 3:15; Lk 1:28, 46-49 - Isa 61:10)

**APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF
POPE PIUS XII
MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS
DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

November 1, 1950**

"And so, to cite some other examples, St. Germanus of Constantinople considered the fact that the body of Mary, the virgin Mother of God, was incorrupt and had been taken up into heaven to be in keeping, not only with her divine motherhood, but also with the special holiness of her virginal body. "You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust

…have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos. Similarly they have given special attention to these words of the New Testament: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women,” since they saw, in the mystery of the Assumption, the fulfillment of that most perfect grace granted to the Blessed Virgin and the special blessing that countered the curse of Eve.

"Along with many others, the Seraphic Doctor held the same views. He considered it as entirely certain that, as God had preserved the most holy Virgin Mary from the violation of her virginal purity and integrity in conceiving and in childbirth, he would never have permitted her body to have been resolved into dust and ashes.

"Consequently it seems impossible to think of her, the one who conceived Christ, brought him forth, nursed him with her milk, held him in her arms, and clasped him to her breast, as being apart from him in body, even though not in soul, after this earthly life. Since our Redeemer is the Son of Mary, he could not do otherwise, as the perfect observer of God’s law, than to honor, not only his eternal Father, but also his most beloved Mother. And, since it was within his power to grant her this great honor, to preserve her from the corruption of the tomb, we must believe that he really acted in this way.

“Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination, immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.”

:heaven:
Hi!

…the precedence is there, right in Scriptures: Delegation of Authority to the Church, formation of Doctrine, formation of hierarchy of the Church, and Assumption of those whom God Deemed meritorious.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
***The New Testament was written over a period of approximately sixty-five years and not so much as one verse says anything about the bodily assumption of Mary. If this event actually occurred, then at least one of the New Testament writers should have told us. ***
According to that logic, the following could not be believed in because they aren’t explicitly mentioned:

1] The Most Holy Trinity - nowhere is the Dogma of the Most Holy Trinity anywhere expounded upon. Yes, the Lord mentions baptising in the Name of the Father &c., at the end of St. Matthew’s Gospel, and the debated Comma Johanneum in the Epistles of St. John the Apostle also mentions the Trinity, and of course types of the Trinity in the Old Testament, but there is nothing substantial, or expansive. Nowhere would one understand anything about the Trinity solely from “sola Scriptura”. In order for a Protestant to believe in the Trinity, with all it’s complex theological and philosophical parts, requires assent to the Council of Niceae, and of other relevant Church Councils and Church writings. Thus, using Sola Scriptura does no help at all.

2] The Hypostatic Union - Nowhere does the Bible expound upon the Hypostatic Union of Christ, videlicet, that He is both God and Man, complete and whole, with a rational soul. In order to believe in this Dogma, one would need to assent to Church Councils. Sola Scriptura cannot help here.

3] The Destruction of Jerusalem - in A.D. 70, the Roman General Titus had flattened Jerusalem. We know because of historical records. But, none of the New Testament authors ever mentioned it, so it must not have happened according to our Protestant objector!

4] Sola Scriptura - Our objector most likely believes in Sola Scriptura (which seems evident from his objection). Yet, from thence can he show one verse where such a doctrine is taught? Can he show a verse from St. Paul, or from one of the other venerable Authors, that states that the Scriptures alone are our guide and authority? I believe the answer is no. In fact, the Scriptures teach that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (1 Tim iii, 15), precisely because the text of Scripture can be corrupted and willfully mistranslated, but the Church’s teaching cannot change, thus She is like a pillar and the ground, which cannot be moved. And because She is Divinely Protected, She is like the house built on rock (Luke vi, 48), the same being St. Peter (Matt xvi, 18).

St. Paul only states that Scripture is profitable (2 Tim iii, 16), as he says also the same about his own advice (2 Corinth viii, 10), and also states that good works are profitable (Titus iii, 8). So, do we proclaim “sola opera” (works alone)? Or perhaps “soli consilii” (advice/counsel alone)?

Lastly we may add this:

The Body of Mary - Considering that the Infant Church jealously kept the bodies of Her members, especially those of fame such as the Martyrs and Apostles, where is the body of Our Lady? We have Her sepulchre, but She is not in it! So, where is She? Does our objector believe that the Church wouldn’t keep the body of the Mother of the Messias somewhere safe?
What Catholicism has actually done in perpetuating this man made dogma of the Assumption, is to give a status to Mary that is not to be given to anyone but the Lord Jesus. Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserve only for God. Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. Phil. 2:10-11 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
So we give undue emphasis on Mary? Well, blame the Church Fathers for that!

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John Book 1, ch 6 (A.D. 185-254):

For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus…

Peter of Alexandria, Fragments 5 par 7 (A.D. 260-311):
*
[T]he only-begotten Son, and the Word co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and of the same substance with them, according to His divine nature, our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, being in the end of the world born according to the flesh of our holy and glorious lady, Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin*, and, of a truth, of Mary the Mother of God; and being seen upon earth, and having true and real converse as man with men, who were of the same substance with Him.

Note well the dates of these. They are before the Council of Nicaea, which supposedly “paganised” the Church. We where praising Mary long before Constantine!

By quoting from Philippians, our objector implies that we somehow don’t confess that Christ is Lord. Have they read the Collects from Mass, where it ends “Per Dominum Nostrum Iesum Christum…” or “Through Our Lord Jesus Christ…”? By the way, if Christ alone is to be exalted, that must exclude the Father and the Holy Ghost, right?

By honouring the Mother of God, we give glory to the One Who created Her and fashioned Her to be His very Mother. Protestants confuse veneration with worship, as they cannot tell the difference. Thus a simple prayer such as “Mary, pray for me to God” translates to them as “Mary, you are God”!

However, Protestants have no problems venerating such people as George Washington [there is even an idol of him dressed as Jupiter: ), Henry VIII or Luther. They create statues, monuments, mountain ranges, even temples (like the one to Abraham Lincoln), and that’s fine. But damned be the Catholic who should venerate the very Mother of God!
 
Protestant objection to the Assumption, his two main points:

The New Testament was written over a period of approximately sixty-five years and not so much as one verse says anything about the bodily assumption of Mary. If this event actually occurred, then at least one of the New Testament writers should have told us.

What Catholicism has actually done in perpetuating this man made dogma of the Assumption, is to give a status to Mary that is not to be given to anyone but the Lord Jesus. Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserve only for God. Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. Phil. 2:10-11 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Im not sure how believing the Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed into heavy, a belief that spans the history of the Church, in one form or another both East and West, Orthodox, Catholic, and some protestants, gives her a status equal to the Messiah.
 
According to that logic, the following could not be believed in because they aren’t explicitly mentioned:

1] The Most Holy Trinity - nowhere is the Dogma of the Most Holy Trinity anywhere expounded upon. Yes, the Lord mentions baptising in the Name of the Father &c., at the end of St. Matthew’s Gospel, and the debated Comma Johanneum in the Epistles of St. John the Apostle also mentions the Trinity… Nowhere would one understand anything about the Trinity solely from “sola Scriptura”. In order for a Protestant to believe in the Trinity, with all it’s complex theological and philosophical parts, requires assent to the Council of Niceae, and of other relevant Church Councils and Church writings. Thus, using Sola Scriptura does no help at all.

2] The Hypostatic Union - Nowhere does the Bible expound upon the Hypostatic Union of Christ, videlicet, that He is both God and Man, complete and whole, with a rational soul. In order to believe in this Dogma, one would need to assent to Church Councils. Sola Scriptura cannot help here.

3] The Destruction of Jerusalem - in A.D. 70, the Roman General Titus had flattened Jerusalem. We know because of historical records. But, none of the New Testament authors ever mentioned it, so it must not have happened according to our Protestant objector!

4] Sola Scriptura - Our objector most likely believes in Sola Scriptura (which seems evident from his objection). Yet, from thence can he show one verse where such a doctrine is taught? Can he show a verse from St. Paul, or from one of the other venerable Authors, that states that the Scriptures alone are our guide and authority? I believe the answer is no. In fact, the Scriptures teach that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (1 Tim iii, 15), precisely because the text of Scripture can be corrupted and willfully mistranslated, but the Church’s teaching cannot change, thus She is like a pillar and the ground, which cannot be moved. And because She is Divinely Protected, She is like the house built on rock (Luke vi, 48), the same being St. Peter (Matt xvi, 18).

St. Paul only states that Scripture is profitable (2 Tim iii, 16), as he says also the same about his own advice (2 Corinth viii, 10), and also states that good works are profitable (Titus iii, 8). So, do we proclaim “sola opera” (works alone)? Or perhaps “soli consilii” (advice/counsel alone)?

Lastly we may add this:

The Body of Mary - Considering that the Infant Church jealously kept the bodies of Her members, especially those of fame such as the Martyrs and Apostles, where is the body of Our Lady? We have Her sepulchre, but She is not in it! So, where is She? Does our objector believe that the Church wouldn’t keep the body of the Mother of the Messias somewhere safe?

So we give undue emphasis on Mary? Well, blame the Church Fathers for that!

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John Book 1, ch 6 (A.D. 185-254):

For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus…

Peter of Alexandria, Fragments 5 par 7 (A.D. 260-311):
*
[T]he only-begotten Son, and the Word co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and of the same substance with them, according to His divine nature, our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, being in the end of the world born according to the flesh of our holy and glorious lady, Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin*, and, of a truth, of Mary the Mother of God; and being seen upon earth, and having true and real converse as man with men, who were of the same substance with Him.

Note well the dates of these. They are before the Council of Nicaea, which supposedly “paganised” the Church. We where praising Mary long before Constantine!

By quoting from Philippians, our objector implies that we somehow don’t confess that Christ is Lord. Have they read the Collects from Mass, where it ends “Per Dominum Nostrum Iesum Christum…” or “Through Our Lord Jesus Christ…”? By the way, if Christ alone is to be exalted, that must exclude the Father and the Holy Ghost, right?

By honouring the Mother of God, we give glory to the One Who created Her and fashioned Her to be His very Mother. Protestants confuse veneration with worship, as they cannot tell the difference. Thus a simple prayer such as “Mary, pray for me to God” translates to them as “Mary, you are God”!

However, Protestants have no problems venerating such people as George Washington [there is even an idol of him dressed as Jupiter: ), Henry VIII or Luther. They create statues, monuments, mountain ranges, even temples (like the one to Abraham Lincoln), and that’s fine. But damned be the Catholic who should venerate the very Mother of God!
Hi!

…actually, blame God:
41 Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord? 45 Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled 46 And Mary*i] said: ‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord 47 and my spirit exults in God my saviour; 48 because he has looked upon his lowly handmaid. Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed, 49 for the Almighty has done great things for me. Holy is his name,
(St. Luke 1:41-43, 45-49)
It is the Holy Spirit that emphasizes the Virgin’s place in God’s Salvific Plan!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Im not sure how believing the Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed into heavy, a belief that spans the history of the Church, in one form or another both East and West, Orthodox, Catholic, and some protestants, gives her a status equal to the Messiah.
Hi, Jon!

…I think that the poster is missing the distinction between Ascension and Assumption… perhaps the “As” cloud the issue. 🤷🤷🤷

Maran atha!

Angel
 
According to that logic, the following could not be believed in because they aren’t explicitly mentioned:

1] The Most Holy Trinity - nowhere is the Dogma of the Most Holy Trinity anywhere expounded upon. Yes, the Lord mentions baptising in the Name of the Father &c., at the end of St. Matthew’s Gospel, and the debated Comma Johanneum in the Epistles of St. John the Apostle also mentions the Trinity, and of course types of the Trinity in the Old Testament, but there is nothing substantial, or expansive. Nowhere would one understand anything about the Trinity solely from “sola Scriptura”. In order for a Protestant to believe in the Trinity, with all it’s complex theological and philosophical parts, requires assent to the Council of Niceae, and of other relevant Church Councils and Church writings. Thus, using Sola Scriptura does no help at all.

2] The Hypostatic Union - Nowhere does the Bible expound upon the Hypostatic Union of Christ, videlicet, that He is both God and Man, complete and whole, with a rational soul. In order to believe in this Dogma, one would need to assent to Church Councils. Sola Scriptura cannot help here.

3] The Destruction of Jerusalem - in A.D. 70, the Roman General Titus had flattened Jerusalem. We know because of historical records. But, none of the New Testament authors ever mentioned it, so it must not have happened according to our Protestant objector!

4] Sola Scriptura - Our objector most likely believes in Sola Scriptura (which seems evident from his objection). Yet, from thence can he show one verse where such a doctrine is taught? Can he show a verse from St. Paul, or from one of the other venerable Authors, that states that the Scriptures alone are our guide and authority? I believe the answer is no. In fact, the Scriptures teach that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (1 Tim iii, 15), precisely because the text of Scripture can be corrupted and willfully mistranslated, but the Church’s teaching cannot change, thus She is like a pillar and the ground, which cannot be moved. And because She is Divinely Protected, She is like the house built on rock (Luke vi, 48), the same being St. Peter (Matt xvi, 18).

St. Paul only states that Scripture is profitable (2 Tim iii, 16), as he says also the same about his own advice (2 Corinth viii, 10), and also states that good works are profitable (Titus iii, 8). So, do we proclaim “sola opera” (works alone)? Or perhaps “soli consilii” (advice/counsel alone)?

Lastly we may add this:

The Body of Mary - Considering that the Infant Church jealously kept the bodies of Her members, especially those of fame such as the Martyrs and Apostles, where is the body of Our Lady? We have Her sepulchre, but She is not in it! So, where is She? Does our objector believe that the Church wouldn’t keep the body of the Mother of the Messias somewhere safe?

So we give undue emphasis on Mary? Well, blame the Church Fathers for that!

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John Book 1, ch 6 (A.D. 185-254):

For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus…

Peter of Alexandria, Fragments 5 par 7 (A.D. 260-311):
*
[T]he only-begotten Son, and the Word co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and of the same substance with them, according to His divine nature, our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, being in the end of the world born according to the flesh of our holy and glorious lady, Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin*, and, of a truth, of Mary the Mother of God; and being seen upon earth, and having true and real converse as man with men, who were of the same substance with Him.

Note well the dates of these. They are before the Council of Nicaea, which supposedly “paganised” the Church. We where praising Mary long before Constantine!

By quoting from Philippians, our objector implies that we somehow don’t confess that Christ is Lord. Have they read the Collects from Mass, where it ends “Per Dominum Nostrum Iesum Christum…” or “Through Our Lord Jesus Christ…”? By the way, if Christ alone is to be exalted, that must exclude the Father and the Holy Ghost, right?

By honouring the Mother of God, we give glory to the One Who created Her and fashioned Her to be His very Mother. Protestants confuse veneration with worship, as they cannot tell the difference. Thus a simple prayer such as “Mary, pray for me to God” translates to them as “Mary, you are God”!

However, Protestants have no problems venerating such people as George Washington [there is even an idol of him dressed as Jupiter: ), Henry VIII or Luther. They create statues, monuments, mountain ranges, even temples (like the one to Abraham Lincoln), and that’s fine. But damned be the Catholic who should venerate the very Mother of God!
Where did the Blessed Mother die? I was in Jerusalem last November and went to the Church of the Dormition of Mary. Is this the correct place?
 
I understand, I copied the rebuttal against the Assumption word for word from a Protestant I have debated for years to no avail, just looking for a new approach, This forums was very helpful when I was coming into the Church.
Ah, but you were seeking and he is opposing, i.e. not seeking to understand. He dwells in the self-imposed prison of bible alone. Scripture is 100% true - it’s just not complete, and that fact limits his search for the truth.

What I have learned form Patrick Madrid: You can pray. However long it takes. Answer if he asks, but allow the Holy Spirit to work. It may take his entire lifetime, but that is fine. This approach is not nearly as satisfying, but God’s will remains perfect while rarely being satisfying to us.
 
Hi!

…actually, blame God:

It is the Holy Spirit that emphasizes the Virgin’s place in God’s Salvific Plan!

Maran atha!

Angel
Thank you for adding that in. I forgot that part! Also, since the Hebrews didn’t use God’s Name, and replaced it with the word “Adonai” or “Lord” what Elizabeth would have actually said (or implied) is:

Whence is this to me that the Mother of YHWH should come unto me?

God bless.
 
Where did the Blessed Mother die? I was in Jerusalem last November and went to the Church of the Dormition of Mary. Is this the correct place?
Well, the tradition is that She died and was buried (and later Assumed) in Jersualem, however modern writers believe She died in Ephesus. However, the Church Fathers and other Ecclesiastical writers never mention Ephesus as Her place of death, only Jerusalem. She did live in Ephesus with St. John, but returned to Jerusalem, and there died.

God bless.
 
Well, the tradition is that She died and was buried (and later Assumed) in Jersualem, however modern writers believe She died in Ephesus. However, the Church Fathers and other Ecclesiastical writers never mention Ephesus as Her place of death, only Jerusalem. She did live in Ephesus with St. John, but returned to Jerusalem, and there died.

God bless.
Thank you. I prefer the Church Fathers over modern writers. They lived closer to the time period. 🙂
 
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