Assumption of St. Mary #2

[JonNC]

Where is the Catholic tradition, now shared by non-Catholic Christians, of celebrating Christmas found in the Bible?

Hi Jimmy,

6And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

Luke 2: 6 and continuing

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy,

Luke 2: 6 and continuing

Jon

Hi Jon,

That’s true and we also know that the Magi, or " Three Wise Men" and others came to celebrate the birth of Christ… and they brought gifts. However, the point I was attempting to make with RD and others here, who totally reject Christian traditions, is that Christmas, or Christ’s Mass is a Christian tradition. I also find it interesting how quickly some non-Catholic, Christians will reject or dismiss Christian traditions and yet will celebrate traditions like Thanksgiving Day…especially for those who claim to put Christ first in their lives. Then again, these same Christians, won’t have a problem with a giant statue of Abraham Lincoln, at the Lincoln Memorial in D.C. but will have a problem with a little statue of St. Mary. It’s almost as if, for some “Christians”, secular traditions are more important than Christian traditions and I don’t understand that. The thought the expression went - “God and Country” …in that order.

Your thoughts?

 

[ERose]

No one knows her end. Thats what the historian said. So no one knows where she is buried. Similiar to the greatest figure in the OT, Moses, no one knows where he is buried either as scripture states.

Ah but there are people that do and that is us Catholics. I am sorry that you guys didn’t get the memo. We know that the tomb is in Jerusalem, but there is no body within that tomb, nor are there anyone claiming to have relics of her body.

Please remember that while some people think the Martyrdom of Polycarp (circa 190 AD) supports relics, all it really states is they were respectfull of his remains and placed them in some form of proper place. There is no indication in the first two hundred years that people at this time attempted to remove bones from the corpse of people. That occured later in Christian history. If people have some of the remains of the bodies of Peter and Paul; it occured because of people’s actions hundreds of years later

You got proof of this or are you making an assumption?

So its not just the fact that no one talked about it, because they did not know about it, for five hundred years its also that volumes were written about her. But this incredible proof for the validity of Christianity, this miracle second only to the resurrection is apparently unknown to everyone.

Yes but they did. The earliest feast day for her Assumption that I know of is at least 380AD in Antioch, so that belief has to be older than that. Also we do have Liber Requiei Mariae (The Book of Mary’s Repose) as early as the 3rd century but most probably in the 2nd century, and the writings of Bishop Meliton which was doing his writings in the 2nd century. (Sorry that I put 300AD above in a previous post but I was wrong.)

I do hope someone will deal with the dates and historicity of the documents and people involved in the earliest listed references to the assumption. When they do, I believe they will see that this was unknown for five hundred years. I do not believe that such an incredible event would have remained under wraps.

See above. Also here is a little nugget for you as well:

In 451 AD, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria desired to own the body of Mary, the Mother of God. St. John of Damascus tells us that St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, told them that, “Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.”

Also you can research the Marian visitations as well which you can google.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Precisely the reason you were making. I do not believe that we are disconnected from Christ. Yes, some do. We believe we are Christians. You of course are entiled to your view. We believe that our homes are good places to grow up. Like I said earlier, we believe we are Christians. We do not believe our views are nonsense.I do not believe the Catholic Church is needed for us to understand scripture.and those are my thoughts.

Regarding Christmas

The vast majority of Christians, worldwide, celebrate Christmas. Are they all doing something wrong, in your opinion, by participating in this Christian tradition?

Your thoughts?

 

[Rightlydivide]

ERose;7052776]Ah but there are people that do and that is us Catholics. I am sorry that you guys didn’t get the memo. We know that the tomb is in Jerusalem, but there is no body within that tomb, nor are there anyone claiming to have relics of her body.

The Catholic bishop Epiphanius is the one who stated there was no tradition.
The tomb is not in Jerusalem according to the folks in Ephesus who say it is there.

You got proof of this or are you making an assumption?

Proof of what exactly?

Yes but they did. The earliest feast day for her Assumption that I know of is at least 380AD in Antioch, so that belief has to be older than that. Also we do have Liber Requiei Mariae (The Book of Mary’s Repose) as early as the 3rd century but most probably in the 2nd century, and the writings of Bishop Meliton which was doing his writings in the 2nd century. (Sorry that I put 300AD above in a previous post but I was wrong.)
See above. Also here is a little nugget for you as well:

We have no evidence of Mary’s assumption in the first 500 years.

Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady’s death, nothing certain is known. The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae. Catholic faith, however, has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Tradition. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Haer., lxxix, 11). The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ’s Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown; but some argue in favour of Ephesus. The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.

The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite.

Catholic Encyclopedia

In 451 AD, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria desired to own the body of Mary, the Mother of God. St. John of Damascus tells us that St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, told them that, “Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.”

A tradition that no one mentioned for 600 years.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Ah but there are people that do and that is us Catholics. I am sorry that you guys didn’t get the memo. We know that the tomb is in Jerusalem, but there is no body within that tomb, nor are there anyone claiming to have relics of her body.

You got proof of this or are you making an assumption?

Yes but they did. The earliest feast day for her Assumption that I know of is at least 380AD in Antioch, so that belief has to be older than that. Also we do have Liber Requiei Mariae (The Book of Mary’s Repose) as early as the 3rd century but most probably in the 2nd century, and the writings of Bishop Meliton which was doing his writings in the 2nd century. (Sorry that I put 300AD above in a previous post but I was wrong.)
See above. Also here is a little nugget for you as well:

In 451 AD, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria desired to own the body of Mary, the Mother of God. St. John of Damascus tells us that St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, told them that, “Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.”

Also you can research the Marian visitations as well which you can google.

• “The earliest feast day for her Assumption that I know of is at least 380AD in Antioch, so that belief has to be older than that. Also we do have Liber Requiei Mariae (The Book of Mary’s Repose) as early as the 3rd century but most probably in the 2nd century, and the writings of Bishop Meliton which was doing his writings in the 2nd century.”*
  **
  Excellent point! Excellent post! Thank you!

 

[Rightlydivide]

Regarding Christmas

The vast majority of Christians, worldwide, celebrate Christmas. Are they all doing something wrong, in your opinion, by participating in this Christian tradition?

Your thoughts?

Colossians 2:16 tells me not to judge this. I mentioned this earlier

 

[Rightlydivide]

• “The earliest feast day for her Assumption that I know of is at least 380AD in Antioch, so that belief has to be older than that. Also we do have Liber Requiei Mariae (The Book of Mary’s Repose) as early as the 3rd century but most probably in the 2nd century, and the writings of Bishop Meliton which was doing his writings in the 2nd century.”*
  **
  Excellent point! Excellent post! Thank you!

It is called Pseudo Melito for a reason, it dates from the 5th or 6th century. Please see the Catholic source I just cited.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Colossians 2:16 tells me not to judge this. I mentioned this earlier

**Here is Colossians 2:16 -
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. 8

Note:
8 [16] Festival or new moon or sabbath: yearly, monthly, and weekly observances determined by religious powers associated with a calendar set by the heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (cf Col 2:8).

**What does this have to do with my Question? Is it wrong, in your opinion, to celebrate the Christian tradition of Christmas or not? You don’t seem to have a problem sharing your opinions when it comes to other Christian beliefs. **

---

Matthew 18:14-18
In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost. "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Here is Colossians 2:16 -
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.* 8*
**
Note:
8 [16] Festival or new moon or sabbath: yearly, monthly, and weekly observances determined by religious powers associated with a calendar set by the heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (cf Col 2:8).

What does this have to do with my Question?

Matthew 18:14-18
In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost. "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I should not judge people in regards to what they keep or do not keep.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I should not judge people in regards to what they keep or do not keep.

What about Satanic rituals? I think that you just have a problem with my question.

 

[Rightlydivide]

What about Satanic rituals? I think that you just have a problem with my question.

The festivals and holy days were in accord with essentially the same religion; albeit not in its fullest form.
Legally, I of course support the right of people to engage in rituals that do not involve criminal activity. I do not have a problem with this question. I have answered it from people in my church who are actively opposed to Christmas and other holidays.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

That’s true and we also know that the Magi, or " Three Wise Men" and others came to celebrate the birth of Christ… and they brought gifts. However, the point I was attempting to make with RD and others here, who totally reject Christian traditions, is that Christmas, or Christ’s Mass is a Christian tradition. I also find it interesting how quickly some non-Catholic, Christians will reject or dismiss Christian traditions and yet will celebrate traditions like Thanksgiving Day…especially for those who claim to put Christ first in their lives. Then again, these same Christians, won’t have a problem with a giant statue of Abraham Lincoln, at the Lincoln Memorial in D.C. but will have a problem with a little statue of St. Mary. It’s almost as if, for some “Christians”, secular traditions are more important than Christian traditions and I don’t understand that. The thought the expression went - “God and Country” …in that order.

Your thoughts?

And you know I agree with you, Jimmy. So, while I may have been responding to your post, I was actually responding to those who reject Christian Tradition, and ironically using scripture to do so.
I think it notable that Christ’s first miracle was at a wedding feast (party!) in Cana. I firmly believe that Christ smiles at the joy and excitement of young children at Christmas. He smiles at the emotion and celebration we share at Easter.

In no way that I can see does a belief in the assumption detract from the glory of Christ. It, like the other traditions mentioned, point to Christ.

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

And you know I agree with you, Jimmy. So, while I may have been responding to your post, I was actually responding to those who reject Christian Tradition, and ironically using scripture to do so.
I think it notable that Christ’s first miracle was at a wedding feast (party!) in Cana. I firmly believe that Christ smiles at the joy and excitement of young children at Christmas. He smiles at the emotion and celebration we share at Easter.

In no way that I can see does a belief in the assumption detract from the glory of Christ. It, like the other traditions mentioned, point to Christ.

Jon

And, that’s it right there… as long as it doesn’t “detract from the glory of Christ” and “like the other traditions mentioned, point to Christ.”

Thank you Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

The festivals and holy days were in accord with essentially the same religion; albeit not in its fullest form.
Legally, I of course support the right of people to engage in rituals that do not involve criminal activity. I do not have a problem with this question. I have answered it from people in my church who are actively opposed to Christmas and other holidays.

Wow…“actively opposed to Christmas”. Sorry friend but I don’t get it and I don’t don’t see how a belief like that is “Christian”.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Wow…“actively opposed to Christmas”. Sorry friend but I don’t get it and I don’t don’t see how a belief like that is “Christian”.

So be it

 

[JonNC]

And, that’s it right there… as long as it doesn’t “detract from the glory of Christ” and “like the other traditions mentioned, point to Christ.”

Thank you Jon

Thanks, Jimmy.

Along these lines, and trying to not sound like a gottcha: does attaching anathemas, or binding the conscience of a believer to the marian doctrines, have the effect of distracting from the glory of Christ? And on the other hand, does not believing in them distract from the glory of Christ?

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

November 1, 1950, Pope Pius XII, acting ex cathedra, issued Munificentissimus Deus, an authoritative statement of official doctrine of Roman Catholicism. In Section 44 the pope stated:

By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
The doctrine is based on Sacred Tradition that Mary, mother of Jesus, was bodily assumed into heaven. For centuries before that, the assumption was celebrated in art

Good enough for me. God Bless, GT

Assumption of Mary a dogma received with the
original deposit of faith. The dogma is derived from both the written tradition (Sacred
Scripture)7 and oral tradition (Sacred Tradition) under the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit
who leads the Church into all truth. As such, the Assumption of Mary is something that
we can be confident in, rejoice in.

 

[JonNC]

November 1, 1950, Pope Pius XII, acting ex cathedra, issued Munificentissimus Deus, an authoritative statement of official doctrine of Roman Catholicism. In Section 44 the pope stated:

By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
The doctrine is based on Sacred Tradition that Mary, mother of Jesus, was bodily assumed into heaven. For centuries before that, the assumption was celebrated in art

Good enough for me. God Bless, GT

Thanks, Gary. I don’t think anyone disputes that this is Catholic teaching, and I know you are blessed by Pope Pius’s pronouncement. And as you say, it is also true that this has been a belief, in varying forms, both east and west, for centuries.
Do you think that a Christian’s salvation is in doubt if they do not believe the assumption?

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

You’ll have to read the Secret Tradition of Mary then yell me what you think.