Assumption of st. Mary

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Pieter Pauwel Rubens
Assumption of the Virgin (1626)

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ASSUMPTION OF ST. MARY

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way."

Genesis 5:24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Henoch was translated that he should not see death: and he was not found because God had translated him. For before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,

**1 **Thesslonians 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail.

Revelation 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church - "Assumption of St. Mary"

966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.
2853 Victory over the “prince of this world” was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is “cast out.” “He pursued the woman” but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.” Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: “Come, Lord Jesus,” since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.
2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord’s Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life. “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.”
 
My understanding has been that Mary was chosen by the Father to give birth to Jesus, but other than that she was just a human being, with the same sin nature and everyone else (except Jesus of course). Protestants generally believe that she had children after Jesus and that she died, as any other person.
 
lisake said:
My understanding has been that Mary was chosen by the Father to give birth to Jesus, but other than that she was just a human being, with the same sin nature and everyone else (except Jesus of course). Protestants generally believe that she had children after Jesus and that she died, as any other person.
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God did not pick just anybody to be the tabernacle for his Son. We Catholics believe that Blessed Mary was born without the stain of original sin (immaculate conception), by God’s grace lived free of sin and upon her death was assumed bodily into heaven.

Martin Luther, “father of the Protestant reformation”, also believed in the immaculate conception.

I am not sure how many Protestants believe Mary had biological children after Jesus. Those who do are generally misinterpreting the Holy Bible around language translation issues. Also, the Bible may be interpreted a kazillion conflicting ways and is by the multitude of different Protestant denominations. Catholics have the Magisterium (direct successors to the Apostles) to guide us.

Mary was “a human being” (she did not have a divine nature). I wouldn’t say that she was “just a human being” as that usually carries the sense of “no better or worse than anyone else” and that is most certainly NOT the case!
 
lutherlic said:
God did not pick just anybody to be the tabernacle for his Son. We Catholics believe that Blessed Mary was born without the stain of original sin (immaculate conception), by God’s grace lived free of sin and upon her death was assumed bodily into heaven.

Martin Luther, “father of the Protestant reformation”, also believed in the immaculate conception.

I am not sure how many Protestants believe Mary had biological children after Jesus. Those who do are generally misinterpreting the Holy Bible around language translation issues. Also, the Bible may be interpreted a kazillion conflicting ways and is by the multitude of different Protestant denominations. Catholics have the Magisterium (direct successors to the Apostles) to guide us.

Mary was “a human being” (she did not have a divine nature). I wouldn’t say that she was “just a human being” as that usually carries the sense of “no better or worse than anyone else” and that is most certainly NOT the case!
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Luke 1:46 where Mary herself states:
“My spirit rejoices in God my savior”

Her reference here to God as here savior implies that she too was a sinner, just as the Bible tells us in…

Romans 3:10
“There is none righteous, no not one.”

Mark 10:18 where Jesus said:
"No one is good except God alone.”

Or there is the passage in Luke 2:22-24 where Mary presents an offering to the Jewish priest for her sinful condition (cross reference that with Leviticus 12). That would not have been necessary if she had been sinless.
 
Jimmy_B said:
What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?
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Hi Jimmy,
The basic Lutheran response is the teaching is adiaphora, on 2 grounds.
  1. Scripture is unclear, certainly not explicit, regarding The Blessed Virgin’s death (or lack thereof) and entry into Heaven.
  2. Her assumption is not directly related to our salvation, not an article of faith.
Lutherans are, therefore, free to believe or not in the Assumption or Dormition. And I think Luther expressed well what I believe: “There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.”

Jon
 
freedomwriter said:
Luke 1:46 where Mary herself states:
“My spirit rejoices in God my savior”

Her reference here to God as here savior implies that she too was a sinner, just as the Bible tells us in…

Romans 3:10
“There is none righteous, no not one.”

Mark 10:18 where Jesus said:
"No one is good except God alone.”

Or there is the passage in Luke 2:22-24 where Mary presents an offering to the Jewish priest for her sinful condition (cross reference that with Leviticus 12). That would not have been necessary if she had been sinless.
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There is a passage in Matthew where Jesus comes to be baptized and John protests that Jesus should baptize him instead. But Jesus insists in order to fulfill the law of Moses. Mary’s offering in the temple was for the same reason— to fulfill the law of ritual purification from the flow of blood, but this does not mean that she had sin any more than Jesus did. Or do you think that a woman becomes sinful because she has given birth?

Also by your interpretation of Romans 3:10 the Gospel writer Luke must be mistaken when he writes in Chapter 1 that both Zechariah and Elizabeth were “just in the eyes of God, blamelessly following all the commandments of the Lord.” (my emphasis)
 
lisake said:
My understanding has been that Mary was chosen by the Father to give birth to Jesus, but other than that she was just a human being, with the same sin nature and everyone else (except Jesus of course). Protestants generally believe that she had children after Jesus and that she died, as any other person.
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“…she was just a human being, with the same sin nature and everyone else…”

What is this belief based upon? Obviously, there is no biblical evidence that St. Mary ever sinned. So, is this Protestant, extra-biblical speculation?

**Or, Maybe it’s based on Protestant tradition… **😉
Catechism of the Catholic Church

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
If God is both Omni-Present (Everywhere at All Times) and Omni-Potent (All Powerful), then isn’t Mary’s Assumption possible?
 
Jimmy_B said:
What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?
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Um, it didn’t happen? :confused:

Sorry, I wasn’t quite sure what you wanted to say. It was probably a later tradition that got a bit glorified.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Um, it didn’t happen? :confused:

Sorry, I wasn’t quite sure what you wanted to say. It was probably a later tradition that got a bit glorified.
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How do you know it didn’t happen?

I think its safe to say the Blessed Virgin is in Heaven, so while there is no definitive evidence of how this happpened (and therefore shouldn’t be doctrine), there’s also no contradiction of the Assumption. And in the east, they believe in the Dormition. While different, not radically so.

Jon
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Did you just ask me to prove a negative…?
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Whoever said that one cannot prove a negative was wrong. For instance, I can prove that I didn’t serve in World War I, by producing my birth certificate. So, how do you know it didn’t happen?
 
Jimmy_B said:
Whoever said that one cannot prove a negative was wrong. For instance, I can prove that I didn’t serve in World War I, by producing my birth certificate. So, how do you know it didn’t happen?
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Actually, proving a negative is one of the oldest logical fallacies in the book, and the burden is usually on the claim, not the negation. For example, the claim would have to be proven that you did serve in World War I (given your age), otherwise it might be expected you didn’t.

The burden here is on the person making the claim. How do we know it happened is the question. Otherwise, I could invent a belief such as “The Virgin Mary really enjoyed drinking ten liters of water a day,” and anyone who said otherwise I could merely respond with, “How do you know she didn’t?”
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Actually, proving a negative is one of the oldest logical fallacies in the book, and the burden is usually on the claim, not the negation. For example, the claim would have to be proven that you did serve in World War I (given your age), otherwise it might be expected you didn’t.

The burden here is on the person making the claim. How do we know it happened is the question. Otherwise, I could invent a belief such as “The Virgin Mary really enjoyed drinking ten liters of water a day,” and anyone who said otherwise I could merely respond with, “How do you know she didn’t?”
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Here’s another example… whenever someone tries to fight a traffic ticket, they are attempting to prove that something “didn’t occur”… i.e. the traffic violation. Your comment is one that is usually applied to scientific theories and not to people and their actions or lack of action… Negatives can be proven, it’s just that they are generally harder to prove and anyone proposing anything can be challenged, otherwise lawyers would be out of a job…
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Yes, so, why should I believe the assumption happened?
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Why should you believe that “the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose**” (Matthew 27:52),** because it was passed down by the Catholic Church, in a Catholic book, the Bible? I am always amazed by non-Catholic Christians who will accept hundreds of “Bible miracles”, documented in a Catholic book and passed down to them by the Catholic Church but will steadfastly reject a handful of “Catholic” beliefs, because a few “infallible”, Protestant reformers say it’s so. … Can you explain this phenomenon?

BTW, I’m enjoying this discussion
 
Jimmy_B said:
Why should you believe that “the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose**” (Matthew 27:52),** because it was passed down by the Catholic Church, in a Catholic book, the Bible? I am always amazed by non-Catholic Christians who will accept hundreds of “Bible miracles”, documented in a Catholic book and passed down to them by the Catholic Church but will steadfastly reject a handful of “Catholic” beliefs, because a few “infallible”, Protestant reformers say so. … Can you explain the phenomenon?
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Sir, you didn’t really answer the question - why should I believe in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary?
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Sir, you didn’t really answer the question - why should I believe in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary?
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Because, from very early on in Christianity, our faith was based on Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture, with Holy Tradition always preceding Holy Scripture. In addition, there are four marks of a true Church and they are -

****· ******The Church Is One **(Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)

****· ******The Church Is Holy ******(Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829) ****

****· ******The Church Is Catholic **(Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

· **The Church Is Apostolic **(Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

In other words, you can believe it for the same reason that you believe what is written in your Bible. Your arguments here could be and often are used by non-Christians, who have no faith and faith is key here.

Belief in the Assumption of Mary… Source: The Catholic Church.

Belief in Holy Scripture…Source: The Catholic Church

I hope this helps.
 
So if the Catholic Church said the earth was flat, I would be forced to believe it because it’s the Catholic Church? :confused:
 
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