Assurance of Salvation and Confession

[T.More]

“The only assurance that I don’t have is to predict my future actions with absolute certainty.”

I understand what you are saying here. My sense from other posts is that concerns about future actions are only part of the issue. It seems that there is a widespread (perhaps not with you) doubt about present salvation. In other words, the posts and discussions with Catholics I have had, the tendency is to question whether their relationship to God now. IN other words, they doubt their final destination if they died today. It always remains obscure.

 

[T.More]

“The Father doesn’t kick us out of the covenant so much as we kick ourselves out of it.”

This is another place where there seems to be a contrast between family life and Catholic views of life in the Church. A child who disobeys his parents does not automatically get kicked out the family. There must be a legal process. Parents must petition a court to terminate parental relationship and the court must approve this. I would see this as analogous to clerical excommunication.

As a side matter, the view that members (not excommunicated) of the institutional Catholic Church really sounds allot like the Protestant distinction between the visible and invisible church. Catholics often criticize Protestants for distinguishing between the two. However, under Catholic views there are many members in good standing with the institutional church who are really outside of God’s family (through unconfessed mortal sin or whatever). That some in the institutional church are not going ot be saved is really the main point of the Protestant doctrine of visible/invisible church.

 

[JimG]

“The only assurance that I don’t have is to predict my future actions with absolute certainty.”

I understand what you are saying here. My sense from other posts is that concerns about future actions are only part of the issue. It seems that there is a widespread (perhaps not with you) doubt about present salvation. In other words, the posts and discussions with Catholics I have had, the tendency is to question whether their relationship to God now. IN other words, they doubt their final destination if they died today. It always remains obscure.

Yes, there may be some of that as well. I think it is because we believe that only God is able to judge our souls objectively at any particular time. When we try to judge ourselves, we may not judge correctly. We may in effect be “self-justifying.” So we use the sacraments, and rely upon the mercy of God.

 

[Lamb100]

There’s a related thread we’ve been having over on the Karl Keating e-letter board–the one where he addressed “once saved, always saved”. Last night, I realized how often that “light bulb” of God’s insight fades and I slip into doubt or despair. Now I understand how the disciples tried the Lord’s patience so much when they so constantly failed to “get it”! I picked up a copy of St. Faustina’s diary, about the Divine Mercy, and realized how much the Lord wants us to get this…and that really it is all about asking Jesus into one’s heart–Catholics and Protestants just interpret this in different ways. The physicality of the Catholic faith, often misinterpreted as idolatry, etc., keeps us mindful of the Incarnation extended through time–the salvation won on the Cross as it’s practically applied to me, personally, today. We’ve got not only Scriptural assurances of God’s love and care, but the Sacraments–his divine grace and presence that really do assure us of salvation–it’s just that we keep sinning and keep needing his grace–need to take up the Cross daily. We also have indulgences, something that caused me to panic when I first became Catholic, but now I see they’re so great–God wants us to be saved so badly he not only came to earth and was tortured for us, but he bends over backwards in every way possible to get us into heaven. It’s like he’s emptying his pockets and saying “Here, you want salvation–take it! take it! there’s plenty more where this came from.”
My take on all this is–I need to pray much more and trust God–He will eventually answer! A lot of the questioning is just our human nature needing to know how much He loves us…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Lamb100:

There’s a related thread we’ve been having over on the Karl Keating e-letter board–the one where he addressed “once saved, always saved”. Last night, I realized how often that “light bulb” of God’s insight fades and I slip into doubt or despair. Now I understand how the disciples tried the Lord’s patience so much when they so constantly failed to “get it”! I picked up a copy of St. Faustina’s diary, about the Divine Mercy, and realized how much the Lord wants us to get this…and that really it is all about asking Jesus into one’s heart–Catholics and Protestants just interpret this in different ways. The physicality of the Catholic faith, often misinterpreted as idolatry, etc., keeps us mindful of the Incarnation extended through time–the salvation won on the Cross as it’s practically applied to me, personally, today. We’ve got not only Scriptural assurances of God’s love and care, but the Sacraments–his divine grace and presence that really do assure us of salvation–it’s just that we keep sinning and keep needing his grace–need to take up the Cross daily. We also have indulgences, something that caused me to panic when I first became Catholic, but now I see they’re so great–God wants us to be saved so badly he not only came to earth and was tortured for us, but he bends over backwards in every way possible to get us into heaven. It’s like he’s emptying his pockets and saying “Here, you want salvation–take it! take it! there’s plenty more where this came from.”
My take on all this is–I need to pray much more and trust God–He will eventually answer! A lot of the questioning is just our human nature needing to know how much He loves us…

You made my day!!! YOU MADE MY DAY!!! In another thread, I was told by two people that my beloved, deeply devout Southern Baptist grandmother, who lived a faithful life, didn’t make it to Heaven because she was never formally inducted/attached to the RCC. I’ve been depressed ever since. You made me remember HIM. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! May Jesus hold you close within His Most Sacred Heart!

 

[Lamb100]

JKirk–I’m so glad this helped!:bounce: It’s so easy to become discouraged and depressed because of our own failings and imperfections, and because the enemy is always trying to get us to take our eyes off of Him. That’s his main goal–it helps me to recall what Satan’s agenda is (without dwelling on it too much, because Jesus has all the power). And those people on the other board should know better, shouldn’t they–as someone posted here–Catholics never pass judgment on the state of another person’s eternal soul, or on our own (hence the thread)–that’s God’s business.

You don’t know how much you helped me, too. God bless you!

You know, I’ve been fighting a spiritual battle for a long time, and last night, after reading these threads here on faith and justification, thinking about my doubts, I picked up that book by St. Faustina–I just read Jesus’ words and they spoke right to me. I re-read what I wrote and remember thinking–this is not really me writing this–this is all His doing. And again earlier tonight I was down about not finding much community yet (a real pity party, actually!) And now here we are, being community for each other, along with all the saints in Heaven and Purgatory, including your Grandma, whom I’m sure is praying for you. Our God is so good!:bowdown:

It’s all about His divine mercy–what He did for us. As Paul said, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.” (1 Cor. 2:2)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Lamb100:

JKirk–I’m so glad this helped!:bounce: It’s so easy to become discouraged and depressed because of our own failings and imperfections, and because the enemy is always trying to get us to take our eyes off of Him. That’s his main goal–it helps me to recall what Satan’s agenda is (without dwelling on it too much, because Jesus has all the power). And those people on the other board should know better, shouldn’t they–as someone posted here–Catholics never pass judgment on the state of another person’s eternal soul, or on our own (hence the thread)–that’s God’s business.

You don’t know how much you helped me, too. God bless you!

You know, I’ve been fighting a spiritual battle for a long time, and last night, after reading these threads here on faith and justification, thinking about my doubts, I picked up that book by St. Faustina–I just read Jesus’ words and they spoke right to me. I re-read what I wrote and remember thinking–this is not really me writing this–this is all His doing. And again earlier tonight I was down about not finding much community yet (a real pity party, actually!) And now here we are, being community for each other, along with all the saints in Heaven and Purgatory, including your Grandma, whom I’m sure is praying for you. Our God is so good!:bowdown:

It’s all about His divine mercy–what He did for us. As Paul said, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.” (1 Cor. 2:2)

The Divine Mercy is my FAVORITE devotion, bar none. To me, it’s the summation of ALL of it, the Law and the Prophets, history, theology, all of it. It leaves me breathless with hope. I hope to go deeper into it. I just ordered the Divine Mercy Icon from Monastery Icons and can’t wait to get it. Community is hard to find, esp. for Catholics in big cities…my parish is huge, as is every other parish in our city. Let’s pray for one another. God bless!

 

[Lamb100]

JKirkLVNV:

Let’s pray for one another. God bless!

Amen!

Whenever I feel like the Baptists “do” community better (and they do and I think we need to quit trying so hard to compete with them in this area–lol!), I try and remember they don’t have the Eucharist, and that’s all that matters in this world or the next.

You know, when I go to Eucharistic adoration, my mind is usually jittery and distracted, but when I pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, I calm down and am usually able to enter into prayer…
some Catholics don’t even know about St. Faustina. I know that last year, on Divine Mercy Sunday, our church didn’t even mention it (I know people say it’s because it’s not a saint’s feast day, it’s a private apparition which is not required for faith, and that the readings of the day are about divine mercy, but still, I wish it would be discussed more!)

God bless you, too!
In Him,
Donna

 

[T.More]

Whenever I feel like the Baptists “do” community better (and they do and I think we need to quit trying so hard to compete with them in this area–lol!)

What do you mean that Baptists are better at community? (I am not Catholic and have little first-hand experience with Catholic chuches).

Thanks

 

[T.More]

In another thread, I was told by two people that my beloved, deeply devout Southern Baptist grandmother, who lived a faithful life, didn’t make it to Heaven because she was never formally inducted/attached to the RCC. I’ve been depressed ever since. You made me remember HIM. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! May Jesus hold you close within His Most Sacred Heart!

Kirk: I think you are safe in your beliefs about your grandmother. The Vatican II documents indicate that Protestants by the faith and baptism are associated with the Catholic Church, although incompletely, and are rightly called Christians and brothers. My understanding of current Catholic teaching is that you can be comfortable about your grandmother, although some old-line traditionalists (ala Matatics or Feeny) would take a different view.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

T. More:

Kirk: I think you are safe in your beliefs about your grandmother. The Vatican II documents indicate that Protestants by the faith and baptism are associated with the Catholic Church, although incompletely, and are rightly called Christians and brothers. My understanding of current Catholic teaching is that you can be comfortable about your grandmother, although some old-line traditionalists (ala Matatics or Feeny) would take a different view.

Thank you for your kindness. The world was better off because my grandmother was in it!

 

[Lamb100]

T. More–about my perceptions of Catholic lack of “community” spirit–I probably shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations–I can only speak to my experience. In my town, the Catholics have been divided by some local issues, and many hurt feelings are there. And talking with Catholics in nearby towns, they don’t feel this way at all. I just personally have found it really hard to get to know people, to feel welcomed. (I’m from the South, and in my uncharitable–or perhaps realistic–moments, I chalk it up to the fact that most Catholics here are from “up North”–not the Midwest, either, the East Coast, where bluntness to the point of being rude, rather than friendliness, is the typical personality trait. ) The new pastor at one of the churches I attend feels the lack of warmth, too–in fact he was brought in to try to renew the parish, and he’s trying to change it by encouraging people to be more friendly, to have greeters, get us involved in church committees (heaven help us all !!).

I guess my observation is partly based on a concern that many times, in a commendable attempt at ecumenism, Catholics have sort of an insecurity about Catholic distinctives–hence all the attempt to lighten up the liturgy, get more singable music –can have a tendency, if we don’t watch it, to “protestantize” the parish. Whenever the church gets an inferiority complex about itself, it overreacts, you know? (Like with Galileo, for instance–some of that was a reaction against the fact that the Lutherans took the scientists to task for not following the Bible, and they were winning converts.)

Friendliness, a sense of “community” are important–I’ve been very lonely this past year. However, the Catholic “style” of worship can be misinterpreted as unfriendliness. It took me awhile to get used to–I come from a tradition of great hymns and music, and Catholics often don’t sing! Used to drive me nuts. It’s like this–you go into a Protestant church, and people are warm, friendly, chatting and greeting each other. Good things, right? You go into a Catholic church, and there’s a quietness, a reverence. People are kneeling in worship. They aren’t talking to each other. (Much less true now–sometimes the conversation is really loud.) The difference is that Jesus is physically present. Since my conversion, sometimes I am just overwhelmed by this. I don’t want to talk to people–I want to pray. When people talk like He’s not even there, it seems sacriligeous to me. I have trouble singing the communion hymn because of my own emotions–often I can’t. It isn’t meant to be unfriendly or standoffish, but it can seem this way without an understanding of the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist.

Hope that helps some. And I love your explaining the Catechism and the Church’s attitude toward our “separated brethren”–wish I’d thought of that. We’re all Christians, united in faith and baptism.

In Christ,
Donna

 

[Vincent]

It’s easy to get lonely in a parish of 2500 families.

 

[T.More]

Kirk:

Here is an excerpt from Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism that you will hopefully find comforting:

Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. **But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(**22)

(Emphasis mine). The entire document is here:
cin.org/v2ecum.html