Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

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Yes. It calls to mind a quote from apologist Mark Shea regarding Protestants who are recusant to the authority of the CC:
You have the mysterious conviction that you can attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize our Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle.

Remember, folks, without the Catholic Church you would not know that, say, the Gospel of Mark is inspired. You quote from it only because the CC discerned for you that it was the Word of God.

There were over 400 ancient Christian texts that the Church, under the guidance of the HS, either accepted or rejected, in discerning the canon.
PR -

Absolutely correct. One can read what the Council of Carthridge said…

“[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John.” Council of Carthage III, Canon 47 (A.D. 397).

And what the Council of Toledo said…

“If any one shall say, or shall believe, that other Scriptures, besides those which the Catholic Church has received, are to be esteemed of authority, or to be venerated, let him be anathema.” Council of Toledo, Canon 12 (A.D. 400).

Why would one want a bible missing 7 books?
 
Peace,

All we can do is provide the evidence. Many are simply ignorant as they have not been taught the Truth. That’s what CAF provides. 🙂 Those truly searching for the Truth in Christ will read, understand and find it. Others, stubborn like the Pharisees will not. We are to pray for them, that the Holy Spirit touch their hearts and soul.

More Evidence

Early Fathers of the Church on the Eucharist continued…so there we have St. Ignatius of Antioch speaking in 110ad, Justin Martyr speaking in the early to mid-second century and Clement of Alexandria speaking in 202 AD below, speaking so clearly of the Eucharist, giving Grace for sanctification of the soul (which is very important to Assurance of our Salvation).

“For the blood of the grape–that is, the Word–desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. **And the mixture of both–of the water and of the Word–is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” **Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).

And Cyril of Jerusalem speaking of the blood of Christ … having “learned these things” …partaking in the spiritual and making thy soul shine (kind of important again to our salvation)

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.”" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350)

So there’s a little TRADITION being passed on from Christ, to the Apostles and to their descendants.
  • St Ignatius of Antioch
  • Justin Martyr
  • Clement of Alexandria
  • Cyril of Jerusalem
And the bible…not yet in existence in 350 ad, has to be understood in light of the Church and the Tradition from which it came. There is nothing “symbolic” here on the meal Christ instituted as read in John 6: “Touto estin to soma mou.” (this is really my body and blood).

He gave us this Eucharistic meal for added grace, for assurance of our salvation. Why miss out by following a new gospel, invented by man 1,500 years later or more. Who do you want to follow? St. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Clement and Cyril OR someone else not following the teachings Christ passed on to his Church? It should be a pretty easy choice.

:extrahappy:

(footnote: quotes above from scripturecatholic.com)
Porknpie, you too seem to provide a considerable amount of material from non-inspired sources about off-topic subjects. This isn’t about the canon of Scripture, and the Scriptures I’ve been using have all been accepted as inspired. This isn’t about the Eucharist. Or the Church. Yes, I understand that these are all important topics and we can become very emotional in our discussions.

What is your take on John 10:22-30 as follows:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

My “interpretation” of verse 28 is that Jesus gives His sheep “eternal life, and they will never perish” not now or at any future time. The exegesis of “never” in this verse means “never, not now or at any future time”.

Another verse reference is 1 John 5:10-13 as follows:

10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John seems to be saying that whomever has the Son has eternal life, and you who believe in the name of the Son of God may know that you have eternal life. That indicates an assurance of salvation, does it not?

What is your take on that? And, please keep on the topic of Assurance of Salvation.

Regards, OldProf
 
This has been a great thread and I have enjoyed reading it very much.

Thanks to all.

I am a former Protestant.
 
Porknpie, you too seem to provide a considerable amount of material from non-inspired sources about off-topic subjects. This isn’t about the canon of Scripture, and the Scriptures I’ve been using have all been accepted as inspired. This isn’t about the Eucharist. Or the Church. Yes, I understand that these are all important topics and we can become very emotional in our discussions.

What is your take on John 10:22-30 as follows:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

My “interpretation” of verse 28 is that Jesus gives His sheep “eternal life, and they will never perish” not now or at any future time. The exegesis of “never” in this verse means “never, not now or at any future time”.

Another verse reference is 1 John 5:10-13 as follows:

10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John seems to be saying that whomever has the Son has eternal life, and you who believe in the name of the Son of God may know that you have eternal life. That indicates an assurance of salvation, does it not?

What is your take on that? And, please keep on the topic of Assurance of Salvation.

Regards, OldProf
Old Prof -

The sacraments instituted by Christ help us in our Journey to Salvation. God gives us added grace so that by our free will, we do not depart from him. No one can take us from him, but we can, through our free will, reject him.

No emotions here other than pure joy. The early church writings which you say are non inspired reflect the belief of the Catholic Church on the Eucharist. It’s from this Tradition, handed down from Christ to the Apostles and to their descendants that the books of the bible were selected as inerrant and inspired. If you went back to 400 ad, with the newly canonized bible in hand, the Church understood the text of John 6, as literally the body and blood of Christ, nothing seen here as symbolic.

The Eucharist was instituted by Christ for our salvation…assurance of salvation as it helps us persevere on our journey as St Paul says we should do.

👍
 
This has been a great thread and I have enjoyed reading it very much.

Thanks to all.

I am a former Protestant.
Miriam1947, thank you for your graciousness. You should know, I did mention before (don’t have the reference right now), that I would be more than willing to convert to Roman Catholicism if I could be shown that my understanding of the doctine of Salvation is incorrect - at least that would be the starting point for me to believe that maybe I have been wrong about the Roman Catholic Church. That has not been the case so far. Primary verses from John 6, John 10, Romans 8, and 1 John (and others) have to be explained first in a way that I can defend.

I’m an electrical engineer by education and work, but really I’m a defender of the faith - that is my passion. I was born again in Sep 1993.

Grace to You!

In Christ, OldProf
 
Old Prof -

The sacraments instituted by Christ help us in our Journey to Salvation. God gives us added grace so that by our free will, we do not depart from him. No one can take us from him, but we can, through our free will, reject him.

No emotions here other than pure joy. The early church writings which you say are non inspired reflect the belief of the Catholic Church on the Eucharist. It’s from this Tradition, handed down from Christ to the Apostles and to their descendants that the books of the bible were selected as inerrant and inspired. If you went back to 400 ad, with the newly canonized bible in hand, the Church understood the text of John 6, as literally the body and blood of Christ, nothing seen here as symbolic.

The Eucharist was instituted by Christ for our salvation…assurance of salvation as it helps us persevere on our journey as St Paul says we should do.

👍
Porknpie, you’re really not answering my questions. Your “God gives us added grace so that by our free will, we do not depart from him. No one can take us from him, but we can, through our free will, reject him.” is a common response, but that begs the question. Jesus, speaking to unbelieving Jews, says:

“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Would you say to Jesus, “Lord Jesus, what you should have said is, ‘I give them the possibility of eternal life, and they will not perish if they continue to follow me, and no one will snatch them out of my hand,’ because, Lord Jesus, your omission of our free will may lead some to think that there is absolutely no possibility that Your sheep that You know will perish, and that is, of course, not true if one of Your sheep commits a mortal sin and dies outside of a state of grace.”?

Would you correct Jesus in that way?

Seriously, for all on this thread, isn’t that a proper correction based our free will ability to be a born again believer (one of the sheep) and then reject Jesus and die and go to hell?

Regards, OldProf
 
Porknpie, you’re really not answering my questions. Your “God gives us added grace so that by our free will, we do not depart from him. No one can take us from him, but we can, through our free will, reject him.” is a common response, but that begs the question. Jesus, speaking to unbelieving Jews, says:

“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Would you say to Jesus, “Lord Jesus, what you should have said is, ‘I give them the possibility of eternal life, and they will not perish if they continue to follow me, and no one will snatch them out of my hand,’ because, Lord Jesus, your omission of our free will may lead some to think that there is absolutely no possibility that Your sheep that You know will perish, and that is, of course, not true if one of Your sheep commits a mortal sin and dies outside of a state of grace.”?

Would you correct Jesus in that way?
Old Prof -

How ironic, I am at my nephews first communion. In not believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I could ask the same…would you want to corrext Jesus and tell him that it is only symbolic and does not help us on the journey to our salvation? This is not what the Church has believed for 2,000 years.

Let’s go to Salvation III.

Peace, Pork
 
Old Prof -

How ironic, I am at my nephews first communion. In not believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I could ask the same…would you want to corrext Jesus and tell him that it is only symbolic and does not help us on the journey to our salvation? This is not what the Church has believed for 2,000 years.

Let’s go to Salvation III.

Peace, Pork
Porknpie, blessings to you at this time - I apologize for any disruption I may have caused. I will think more about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

In Christ, OldProf
 
Miriam1947, thank you for your graciousness. You should know, I did mention before (don’t have the reference right now), that I would be more than willing to convert to Roman Catholicism if I could be shown that my understanding of the doctine of Salvation is incorrect - at least that would be the starting point for me to believe that maybe I have been wrong about the Roman Catholic Church. That has not been the case so far. Primary verses from John 6, John 10, Romans 8, and 1 John (and others) have to be explained first in a way that I can defend.

I’m an electrical engineer by education and work, but really I’m a defender of the faith - that is my passion. I was born again in Sep 1993.

Grace to You!

In Christ, OldProf
Thank you. And Grace to You as well.

I was born again at Easter Vigil 2008 when I was baptized into the Catholic Church. Yay!
 
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