Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[fhansen]

A free will that has the ability to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior (a good thing) and then later to reject Jesus (a bad thing) tells me who is in control of salvation, doesn’t it. It is the person with free will. Where does the Bible teach that? If that is true, why cannot we boast in our own salvation?

God can place any conditions He wants on salvation. But if salvation is only available to begin with due to the merits of Christs work of redemption on the cross, then Who’s in control of salvation, regardless of whether or not we accept the offer?

 

[brb3]

We are approaching an end to this thread, I think, at 1000 responses. I may be wrong. However, we can continue this discussion at

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488&highlight=oldprof&page=2

if we cannot continue it here.

Regards, OldProf

OldProf …

Good to see you are back from vacation, and again ENGAGED in the dialog. Yes, at the Millennial mark, but oftentimes the Mods will let us continue if the discussion is charitable and moving the topic forward. And yes, if it is closed, we have the other thread option you cite. I too am an ‘old prof’ …so let me try a different tact in addressing the OSAS question.
What would it take … what scripture, historical evidence, or otherwise…to convince u that your viewpoint is wrong ? I think, provided u have prior occasion of discovering you were mistaken in certain viewpoints, and able to accept the FULLER TRUTH in those regards …that we can examine your Standard of Proof needs, and make the convincing case to you that its finally time to reject OSAS.

So, give us the several items you would need to see, for you to accept OSAS is not correct.

 

[paul_c]

paul c,

1. Romans 2:12-16 won’t help you. It describes sinners, Jews and Gentiles, who will be judged. IF someone COULD do the law, then, yes, they would be justified. But, of course, no one can. Jesus, yes, but no one else. This is clear in Romans 3:9-20. The full context of Romans 1:16-3:31 is very important here - it is faith, not works.

you say this, yet, in Romans 2: 1-11, Judgement is based on works. The problem here is that you are conditioned to look at scripture in the context of your faith tradition, which came from Calvin, not God. You therefore exclude any scriptural verse which doesn’t correspond to your preconceived view.

1. Luke 8:4-15 Parable of the Sower. That won’t help you either.

Really, How so? Jesus specifically says there are some who believe but then fall away do to persecutions. Why don’t you believe Jesus? Is Calvin’s view superior? Why?

This “assurance” thread is very closely tied to 1 John. Note 1 John 2:19

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” ESV, Biblegateway

John is talking about heretics and how you can judge who is teaching the truth. Can you not see that he’s talking about people who left the Catholic Church. Those who will look but not see, hear, but not understand. Those to whom the parables have no meaning because they do not see them through the lens of Catholic tradition.

The sheep, the elect, don’t leave - they continue in the faith and they “never perish”. Professing Christians who then leave the faith are not and were never Christians. At least I’ve never seen a good Scriptural argument that can overcome the explicit Greek of John 10:28 (sheep never perish, not now or at any future time).

So you ignore the fact that Jesus says some will believe that will subsequently fall away (Luke 8:13) in favor of your interpretation of this verse. Couldn’t this verse also mean that those who persevere in the faith will never be lost?

1. You are inconsistent. We have a role in the path to salvation? If that is the case, then I certainly can boast about my role and my works.

Of course you have a role in your salvation. God does not force you to love Him. But here’s the paradox, you get to heaven through love, which is selfless. If you try to earn your way to heaven, you will never get there because that isn’t love, it is earning a prize. However, if you love for the sake of God and your neighbor’s benefit alone, never giving a second thought to heaven, then you will indeed be saved. Read Paul’s great poem of love (1Corinthians 13), you will see that love never boasts.

My statement stands: “A free will that has the ability to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior (a good thing) and then later to reject Jesus (a bad thing) tells me who is in control of salvation, doesn’t it. It is the person with free will. Where does the Bible teach that? If that is true, why cannot we boast in our own salvation?”

Because salvation is about loving, and love never boasts. I hope you see now that there is a different approach required to get to heaven. Its not enough to simply proclaim Christ, you need to love him and your neighbor the best you can and then just leave it up to him whether that is sufficient. Stop worrying about getting to heaven. Just love and the rest will follow.

1. I must have missed your answers. Tell me about John 10:28

First of all, its a fool’s errand to try to discern scriptural meanings out of isolated verses. You can fool yourself into making them mean anything you want. You need to look at the whole Tradition and all of the scriptures to discern the truth. That said, "
[BIBLEDRB]John 10:28[/BIBLEDRB] means that Jesus will not lose those that persevere in the faith. The sheep who follow Jesus will be saved. It does not say that sheep can not turn away on their own. We know that they can. We also know that there is more joy over one lost sheep that is recovered than over 99 sheep who are never lost. Doesn’t that parable indicate the possibility that sheep are lost. What it does say is if the sheep stay with the shepherd, they will not be lost.

and Php 1:6, to name just two verses. [BIBLEDRB]phil 1:3-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Regards, OldProf

Question for you: Why does Paul pray for those who you say are already saved? wouldn’t that be completely a waste of time in their salvation is already assured? And why does he pray specifically that they are without offense on the day of the lord in verse 10 if that is a foregone conclusion since they are the sheep? You see how instead this makes sense in the Catholic construct I gave you , where you must stay in the state of grace through love to reach heaven.

 

[paul_c]

OldProf …

Good to see you are back from vacation, and again ENGAGED in the dialog. Yes, at the Millennial mark, but oftentimes the Mods will let us continue if the discussion is charitable and moving the topic forward. And yes, if it is closed, we have the other thread option you cite. I too am an ‘old prof’ …so let me try a different tact in addressing the OSAS question.
What would it take … what scripture, historical evidence, or otherwise…to convince u that your viewpoint is wrong ? I think, provided u have prior occasion of discovering you were mistaken in certain viewpoints, and able to accept the FULLER TRUTH in those regards …that we can examine your Standard of Proof needs, and make the convincing case to you that its finally time to reject OSAS.

So, give us the several items you would need to see, for you to accept OSAS is not correct.

Frankly, that’s an unfair request. The Holy Spirit led him here, trust in Him to do the rest. Be patient. Let the Spirit take him where He wills.

 

[brb3]

Frankly, that’s an unfair request. The Holy Spirit led him here, trust in Him to do the rest. Be patient. Let the Spirit take him where He wills.

Well, maybe not. Lets let the Professor make the call. It was my invitation, prof to prof, for him to set forth the KEY POINTS in Catholic doctrine against OSAS that he needs us provide proof of.

Until we have his short, or long laundry list, we can’t address FULLY his concerns…taking them ONE-BY-ONE, as a marksman would. Thus far, we are making scatter-gun, shot in dark efforts, and not sure if we are hitting his KEY concerns.

On page 67 already…if he give his list…we will be done in another 20, …tops
…

 

[brb3]

brb3, the sermons I sent to you discuss Psalms 41 and 55, see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747488

So you HAVE seen them, but only if you actually read the sermons, which now I’m guessing you didn’t. Or if you did, it was only a cursory reading that missed much pertinent information relating to this very subject.

Think about it. If Judas was a Christian, then he was in a state of grace. He went from spiritual death to spiritual life. He was born again, and he was one of Jesus’ sheep. Going from dead in sins to life is what Paul speaks about in Eph 2:1-10. It is the journey of the believer. But we have some pretty clear evidence that Judas went to hell. He was of the devil (John 6:70) and chosen that the Scriptures would be fulfilled (John 13:18).

Now we have some theological problems. In the clearest and most emphatic Greek, Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:11), says His sheep have eternal life and will never perish in John 10:28. It means they will never go to hell.

If Judas was a sheep and goes to hell, it means:

Jesus was wrong in John 10:27-30. Sheep can be lost.

Jesus was wrong in John 6:37-40. Jesus will lose some given by the Father.

Paul was wrong in Romans 8:39 (ref 8:18-39, we, who are in creation, can separate ourselves from from the love of God, but that is not what Paul says, is it?)

Paul was wrong in Philippians 1:6. Since faith is lost, it won’t be completed.

Jesus is not the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

And there is more, but we are limited in the length of our responses.

I think it is a safe bet that, theologically, Judas was never one of Jesus sheep to begin with. And, since he knew all about Jesus and what following Jesus meant, his turning away fits the “impossible” statement in Hebrews 6:4. .

Regards, OldProf

Ok, …I looked at your verses above. You start out making a strong case for your thesis, til you get to Hebrews12:2. It doesn’t say anything about salvation assurance.

Then, you bring in Judas, in regards to Hebrews 6:4-6, saying if he was an unbeliever from the beginning…this scripture fits Judas.
How so ?? Please explain how this could possibly refer to the Judas predicament ?

 

[brb3]

Also, with consideration to Psalms 41:9. " Even my BOSOM FRIEND IN whom I TRUSTED, who ATE MY BREAD, has lifted his heel against me."

So, you can no longer claim Judas a lifelong unbeliever !

 

[jcrichton]

brb3 - yes I have reviewed the pros and cons. No it doesn’t from what I can tell. See my first post on this thread, #42, and know that I’m well aware “proof texts” and what they do and do not prove. I told guanophore I will follow the truth in this, and I will. If I can find biblical support that Jesus’ sheep can be lost, then that would be a first step to show favor of Roman Catholic theology.

What is your response to the verses I just gave in Post #988?

Regards, OldProf

…the problem is not finding Biblical support… the problem is accepting Christ’s Word:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. 8 It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. 9 I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (St. John 15:1-10)

OldProf, not once did Jesus Christ say you are eternally saved because you have received eternal salvation… He warns His Chosen Disciples (Twelve minus One) that they must remain in Him… that though they are already Saved (clean) they must still remain in Him: Obey His Commandments: Remain in His Love!

The issue of God’s Omnipotence is mute!

The issue of free will is also mute!

It is God’s Will that we freely submit our wills to His–it is not God’s Will to make humanity into automatons.

It is God’s Will that all shall Live!

It is not God’s Will to condemn humanity through some random act of whimsy!

The mechanism for Salvation has been in place since before Creation and there are two distinct, though not equal, responsible parties: God, Who so Loved the world that He Gave His Only Begotten Son so that all shall Live, and man who, through humble obedience (though he can arrogantly opt to reject God’s Salvific Plan), must accept God’s Authority and Salvation:

14 as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son. 19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; 21 but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.’ (St. John 3:14-21)

Salvation is Christ!
Salvation is on-going, in Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pocohombre]

I like your mothers question. I would only hope that when you enter the pearly gates, and St. Peter asks you why he should let you in, you may only answer one thing, “Because of what Jesus did on Calvary”. Then St. Peter will know you have been given the gift of faith, that you have met the Savior and He is expecting you. As soon as you start telling St. Peter of things you have done, he begins to doubt your knowledge of Him. Jesus told St Peter about religious people, when you put them on the spot, they utter things they have done for the Lord but alas they never knew Him. Can you say , “But St. Peter, I have been baptized, or confirmed, or baptized in the Holy Ghost, attended church or had my last rites, fully confessed, been a good Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran…on and on and one we can self justify” Not to worry .There is a choice, an antidote to what is put forth to you : Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.”

 

[pocohombre]

U are right, I went to the (this) thread, via your link address, but didn’t examine the sermon links. I will however now take time to listen / read them this weekend …especially since you now tell me they cover these amazing Prophetic verses on Jesus & Judas !!!

Now, a question for you. Have u ever attempted to argue, from scripture, that OSAS is wrong …just as a scholarly endeavor ? Make a list of your debate points, both pro & con. U should find the list convincingly favors the Catholic position.

How about ORAR- Once Right Always Right ? Does anyone believe that for their “church” ? If OSAS does not apply to us, why should ORAR apply to a church ? I think you can find pro and cons for both.

 

[brb3]

I like your mothers question. I would only hope that when you enter the pearly gates, and St. Peter asks you why he should let you in, you may only answer one thing, “Because of what Jesus did on Calvary”. Then St. Peter will know you have been given the gift of faith, that you have met the Savior and He is expecting you. As soon as you start telling St. Peter of things you have done, he begins to doubt your knowledge of Him. Jesus told St Peter about religious people, when you put them on the spot, they utter things they have done for the Lord but alas they never knew Him. Can you say , “But St. Peter, I have been baptized, or confirmed, or baptized in the Holy Ghost, attended church or had my last rites, fully confessed, been a good Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran…on and on and one we can self justify” Not to worry .There is a choice, an antidote to what is put forth to you : Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, :thumbsup:meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.”

Be aware that that quote of Trent is speaking to the Protestants teaching that we are saved w/o our needing to give free-will assent…ie., that salvation was solely the work of HS, giving grace to those Predestined by God.

 

[jcrichton]

paul c, you didn’t give a “backdrop” from a Scriptural viewpoint. What Scriptures do you have to show that the unbeliever has ANY ability to do something righteous in the sight of God?

A free will that has the ability to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior #a good thing# and then later to reject Jesus #a bad thing# tells me who is in control of salvation, doesn’t it. It is the person with free will. Where does the Bible teach that? If that is true, why cannot we boast in our own salvation?

And what is your response to the verses I just gave in Post #988?

Regards, OldProf

…again, OldProf, you are confusing weather satelites with groundhog predictions… yeah on the surface they seem the same… but, not really!

Having the free will to reject God and having the free will to accept God does not mean that man can Save himself!

Anyone that claims that man can achieve Salvation on his merits or snatch it through sheer will knows not what “will,” “power,” or “Salvation” means.

…it seems that you’re asking if man can choose God over himself?

…well it would be quite irresponsible of me not to cue you in in what Yahweh God Himself thinks about man’s ability to choose himself or to choose God:

Today, I call heaven and earth to witness against you: I am offering you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

31 Shake off all the crimes you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – declares the Lord Yahweh – so repent and live!’ (Ezekiel 18:31-32)

18 ‘Come, let us talk this over,’ says Yahweh. ‘Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. 19 If you are willing to obey, you shall eat the good things of the earth. 20 But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall eat you instead – for Yahweh’s mouth has spoken.’ (Isaiah 1:18-20)

Adulterers! Do you not realise that love for the world is hatred for God? Anyone who chooses the world for a friend is constituted an enemy of God. (St. James 4:4)

1 Brothers, even if one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way. 2 Carry each other’s burdens; that is how to keep the law of Christ. 3 Someone who thinks himself important, when he is not, only deceives himself; 4 but everyone is to examine his own achievements, and then he will confine his boasting to his own achievements, not comparing them with anybody else’s. 5 Each one has his own load to carry. 6 When someone is under instruction in doctrine, he should give his teacher a share in all his possessions. 7 Don’t delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap. 8 If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life. 9 And let us never slacken in doing good; for if we do not give up, we shall have our harvest in due time. 10 So then, as long as we have the opportunity let all our actions be for the good of everybody, and especially of those who belong to the household of the faith. (Galatians 6:1-10)

7 That is why, as the Holy Spirit says: If only you would listen to him today! 8 Do not harden your hearts, as at the rebellion, as at the time of testing in the desert, 9 when your ancestors challenged me, and put me to the test, and saw what I could do 10 for forty years. That was why that generation sickened me and I said, ‘Always fickle hearts, that cannot grasp my ways!’ 11 And then in my anger I swore that they would never enter my place of rest. 12 Take care, brothers, that none of you ever has a wicked heart, so unbelieving as to turn away from the living God.13 Every day, as long as this today lasts, keep encouraging one another so that none of you is hardened by the lure of sin, 14 because we have been granted a share with Christ only if we keep the grasp of our first confidence firm to the end. 15 In this saying: If only you would listen to him today; do not harden your hearts, as at the Rebellion, 16 who was it who listened and then rebelled? Surely all those whom Moses led out of Egypt. 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Surely with those who sinned and whose dead bodies fell in the desert. 18 To whom did he swear they would never enter his place of rest? Surely those who would not believe. 19 So we see that it was their refusal to believe which prevented them from entering. (Hebrews 3:7-19)

So you see, OldProf, man (yes, even the very Believers) can choose to reject God… thusly, as Hebrews 3:19 state, man’s disbelief causes him not to enter Salvation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

brb3 - yes I have reviewed the pros and cons. No it doesn’t from what I can tell. See my first post on this thread, #42, and know that I’m well aware “proof texts” and what they do and do not prove. I told guanophore I will follow the truth in this, and I will. If I can find biblical support that Jesus’ sheep can be lost, then that would be a first step to show favor of Roman Catholic theology.

What is your response to the verses I just gave in Post #988?

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, there’s much in what you state that is correct… the problem you have is that you spouse Salvation (Eternally and Forever Secured) as given because God’s Omnipotence… Scripture does not guarantee Salvation because man becomes a sheep/elect hence cannot ever sin (his actions counted as sin–since Scripture clearly state that none can claim that he/she does not sin/know not sin); what Scripture truly state is that in Christ Salvation is Eternal and Granted through God’s Grace… however, man can always choose to set aside his/her Salvation by enjoining the life of the flesh once again… it is the reason why the Epistles and all of the Writings do not speak to non-Believers but to the Believers:

7 That is why, as the Holy Spirit says… 8 Do not harden your hearts, as at the rebellion… then in my anger I swore that they would never enter my place of rest… 12 Take care, brothers, that none of you ever has a wicked heart, so unbelieving as to turn away from the living God… that none of you is hardened by the lure of sin, 14 because we have been granted a share with Christ only if we keep the grasp of our first confidence firm to the end… 19 So we see that it was their refusal to believe which prevented them from entering. (Hebrews 3:7-19)

Scripture do not address non-Believers since they have little interest in Christ and His Gospel of Eternal Salvation, and since those cited from the time of Moses are long dead and cannot hear a single word of warning about “today,” you and I know that Scripture is warning those who Believe in Christ… those whose Eternal Salvation is found in Christ… that they better not emulate Israel that rejected God’s Word and engaged in the very behavior that caused them to not be allowed to reach that “rest” (Eternal Salvation)!

…again, it is not God who takes back His Gift of Salvation but man who obstinately chooses to reject God’s Authority and Will, thusly opting to not enter into God’s Rest!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well, maybe not. Lets let the Professor make the call. It was my invitation, prof to prof, for him to set forth the KEY POINTS in Catholic doctrine against OSAS that he needs us provide proof of.

Until we have his short, or long laundry list, we can’t address FULLY his concerns…taking them ONE-BY-ONE, as a marksman would. Thus far, we are making scatter-gun, shot in dark efforts, and not sure if we are hitting his KEY concerns.

On page 67 already…if he give his list…we will be done in another 20, …tops
…

I doubt that his concerns can be addressed since he is rejecting Scripture not Catholic Doctrine.

…it’s like the claim that’s made about “Scripture;” the problem is that no matter how you prove from Scripture their concern is not ever met because those Scriptural passages that they reject do not factor in and those that they do accept they accept not on the content of Scripture but on the skewed interpretation that they favor…

…it’s like proving that water is water!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I like your mothers question. I would only hope that when you enter the pearly gates, and St. Peter asks you why he should let you in, you may only answer one thing, “Because of what Jesus did on Calvary”. Then St. Peter will know you have been given the gift of faith, that you have met the Savior and He is expecting you. As soon as you start telling St. Peter of things you have done, he begins to doubt your knowledge of Him. Jesus told St Peter about religious people, when you put them on the spot, they utter things they have done for the Lord but alas they never knew Him. Can you say , “But St. Peter, I have been baptized, or confirmed, or baptized in the Holy Ghost, attended church or had my last rites, fully confessed, been a good Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran…on and on and one we can self justify” Not to worry .There is a choice, an antidote to what is put forth to you : Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.”

…but you do know that it takes more than knowing what Jesus did on Calvary, right?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pocohombre]

…

The mechanism for Salvation has been in place since before Creation and there are two distinct, though not equal, responsible parties: God, Who so Loved the world that He Gave His Only Begotten Son so that all shall Live, and man who, through humble obedience (though he can arrogantly opt to reject God’s Salvific Plan), must accept God’s Authority and Salvation:

 

[jcrichton]

How about ORAR- Once Right Always Right ? Does anyone believe that for their “church” ? If OSAS does not apply to us, why should ORAR apply to a church ? I think you can find pro and cons for both.

…well Christ never preached OSAS… and Christ founded only one Church… so while the OSAS is dead on the water, how can you argue with Christ Who claimed that His Church would prevail even against the gates of hell/underworld/hades…?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pocohombre]

…but you do know that it takes more than knowing what Jesus did on Calvary, right?

Maran atha!

Angel

I think the answer is implicit . The devil knows Jesus died on Calvary, but he can not plead the Blood for his salvation, and know Jesus as Savior and Lord. My scenario has the pilgrim declaring Calvary and applying it to the question ( of entry) as His personal righteous"covering". That is, yes I know Jesus historically died on Calvary, for sins, and the pilgrim is implying for his sins, and that can only happen when one personally encounters Christ , who conveys the need for such a declaration and provides the means for it. St Peter knows one can not plead Calvary for ones eternal destiny in heaven unless he has met Jesus as Lord and Savior and thus has an appointment to be with Him upon termination of this earthly life

 

[paul_c]

How about ORAR- Once Right Always Right ? Does anyone believe that for their “church” ? If OSAS does not apply to us, why should ORAR apply to a church ? I think you can find pro and cons for both.

Please! There is one set of eternal truths regarding salvation. Jesus, working with the Holy Spirit passed those truths to the One, Holy, Catholic Church and commissioned it to pass that to the nations. [BIBLEDRB]matt 28: 18-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Therefore, what the Catholic Church teaches continues to be right for all time.

 

[pocohombre]

…well Christ never preached OSAS… and Christ founded only one Church… so while the OSAS is dead on the water, how can you argue with Christ Who claimed that His Church would prevail even against the gates of hell/underworld/hades…?

Maran atha!

Angel

Some would say it is prevailing today partly thru the protestant reformation. OSAS and ORAR each have biblical pros and cons/arguments.