Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[paul_c]

I think the answer is implicit . The devil knows Jesus died on Calvary, but he can not plead the Blood for his salvation, and know Jesus as Savior and Lord. My scenario has the pilgrim declaring Calvary and applying it to the question ( of entry) as His personal righteous"covering". That is, yes I know Jesus historically died on Calvary, for sins, and the pilgrim is implying for his sins, and that can only happen when one personally encounters Christ , who conveys the need for such a declaration and provides the means for it

**
Have you read Matthew 7: 21-23?**
[BIBLEDRB]matt 7: 21-23[/BIBLEDRB]
**Saying you knew Jesus died on the cross will not nearly be enough.

and have you read Jesus’ account on judgement day? Notice that both the sheep and the goats called him Lord. What distinguished them wasn’t their faith but their love for their neighbors**.[BIBLEDRB]matt 25: 31-46[/BIBLEDRB]
**
But you are right, you can’t earn your way into heaven. You can only enter into heaven through unselfish love. (love is defined in catholic teaching as doing things for others without expecting anything in return- a synonym is charity).** [BIBLEDRB]1 cor 13: 1-13[/BIBLEDRB]

So if you are asked why you should enter heaven, a better answer might be: I did my best to love God and my neighbors but I didn’t always do so. I am sorry for that. Please have mercy on me.

 

[pocohombre]

Please! There is one set of eternal truths regarding salvation. Jesus, working with the Holy Spirit passed those truths to the One, Holy, Catholic Church and commissioned it to pass that to the nations. [BIBLEDRB]matt 28: 18-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Therefore, what the Catholic Church teaches continues to be right for all time.

Please, your scriptures are beautifully universal (catholic). It is your One, Holy,Apostolic,Catholic phrase that is a unique (private, non-universal) scriptural interpolation, apart from Protestant,Orthodox views. The body of Christ is one ,holy, apostolic and catholic, apart from the different sees/patriarchs as recognized or unrecognized thru our two thousand year history

 

[paul_c]

Please, your scriptures are beautifully universal (catholic). It is your One, Holy,Apostolic,Catholic phrase that is a unique (private, non-universal) scriptural interpolation, apart from Protestant,Orthodox views. The body of Christ is one ,holy, apostolic and catholic, apart from the different sees/patriarchs as recognized or unrecognized thru our two thousand year history

If you recognize the Nicene Creed, as the Orthodox and most protestant denominations do, then you recognize that there is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And even if you don’t, that doesn’t make it any less true. And the Catholic Church is indeed universal and timeless. Anyone who wishes to be saved can join. And remember, there is truth in all the world’s religions. But only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and where others deviate from it, the deviate from the truth. Assurance of salvation is one of those deviations

 

[jcrichton]

It is precisely the "mechanism " of salvation that separates us . To put forth a wrong mechanism is to put forth a false Gospel .That is, eternal destination lies in the balance .How did we come so far apart ? The same error was in the beginning, with Cain and Abel . On the surface both were religious, even obedient to a point. Both offered sacrifices but one definitely had the wrong mechanism. The implication you make is that we All have the right mechanism, just that we have to exercise our free will and engage it.
Are we responsible parties ? Is there something good in by yourself ? Of course here are two parties, a live one and a dead one. You change the scripture above to read that “whosoever humbly obeys shall be saved” . It is whosoever believes. Faith is a gift. Belief in Christ is a gift. Where we once would not humbly obey we do after AFTER faith has been given, after we receive.We couldn’t even receive it unless He revives us .No matter what you state as our required action, it can be shown He even enables that.Regeneration has the same mechanism today as it did from Eve’s day -faith .in His work. Water baptism is not regenerational as circumcision wasn’t either.

…let’s see if I can clarify…

Salvation mechanish: God’s Salvific Plan through Jesus Christ:

17 And if you address as Father him who judges without favouritism according to each individual’s deeds… 18 For you know that the price of your ransom … was paid… in precious blood as of a blameless and spotless lamb, Christ. 20 He was marked out before the world was made, and was revealed at the final point of time for your sake. 21 Through him you now have faith in God… for this very purpose – that your faith and hope should be in God. (1 St. Peter 1:17-21)

As the mechanism has been in place before Creation and being that God is Eternal… Salvation is Eternal! …the problem, as you intimated, is erosion…

…though both brothers offer God worship… Abel offers the best (not blood/flesh) while Cain offers whatever… both are inspired to seek God’s approval but one offers God a worship based on personal interpretation (God is Love so He won’t mind whatever I offer) while the other offers God a worship based on what he judges God deserves (my best for you!); the short-cut guy ends up being rejected and becoming a murderer…

…as you stated God Gives the Word to the world; the Word Gives the world His Church and through her God’s Revelation of His Salvific Plan:

3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. 4 Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, 5 marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons, through Jesus Christ. Such was his purpose and good pleasure, (Ephisians 1:3-5)

…but as Cain you err in thinking that all you have to do is be a lump on the Way… that all one needs do is have the Knowledge that in Christ Salvation has been Granted… further that those to whom Salvation has been Granted are adopted sons of God (I guess the eternally saved ones)… if Scripture would simple stop there… if God’s Salvific Plan would only require that God capriciously elect to Save some and elect to damn the rest… than you and OSAS/AOS and all the derivatives would live a wonderful blissful tomorrow today…

…yet, would that not mean that God is an awful steward, pretending to Love all while secretly damning most? Jesus says otherwise:

1 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him. 4 What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men… 9 The Word was the real light that gives light to everyone; he was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world that had come into being through him, and the world did not recognise him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believed in his name 13 who were born not from human stock or human desire or human will but from God himself. 14 The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that he has from the Father as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. (St. John 1:1-14)

As you can see our Salvation and election is found in Christ–but not as a blind whim of fate but as consequence of our conscious determination to Belive in Christ!

Amen. Quite universal
No but we have free will to believe that or believe justification takes place once, but sanctification continues, until our glorification in heaven. Being spiritually born, regenerated is not “ongoing”. Being born of the spirit is not ongoing as being filled is.

No. We are free to accept/rejec Scripture/God:

So, my dear friends, you have always been obedient; your obedience must not be limited to times when I am present. Now that I am absent it must be more in evidence, so work out your salvation in fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Some would say it is prevailing today partly thru the protestant reformation. OSAS and ORAR each have biblical pros and cons/arguments.

…the fact that we can argue about an issue and present pros and cons does not make it theologically sound… the Jehovah Witnesses preach a “good” Christ who happens to be an angel with a touch of a little god/general in him… they argue with massive pros for their theology and massive cons for everything esle… so would you then consider them Christians?

The fact that Scripture state that Believers must remain in Christ and that they must not return to the old sinfulness lest they perish is enough to derail OSAS/AOF/ORAR… and don’t get the “Scripture” argument started because Scripture tells you that there’s but One Faith, One Baptism, One Gorspel, One… get it?!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Please, your scriptures are beautifully universal (catholic). It is your One, Holy,Apostolic,Catholic phrase that is a unique (private, non-universal) scriptural interpolation, apart from Protestant,Orthodox views. The body of Christ is one ,holy, apostolic and catholic, apart from the different sees/patriarchs as recognized or unrecognized thru our two thousand year history

…not when you leave the Church to start your own church whenever there’s a divergence in thought between the voting members of the not hierarchy that you call Bible Believing Christians–oh wait, I forgot, you don’t need to vote to get a new church going just enough members (say 10) that would agree with your philosophy-of-the-day type theology… never mind that Christ called for One Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pocohombre]

If you recognize the Nicene Creed, as the Orthodox and most protestant denominations do, then you recognize that there is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And even if you don’t, that doesn’t make it any less true. And the Catholic Church is indeed universal and timeless. Anyone who wishes to be saved can join. And remember, there is truth in all the world’s religions. But only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and where others deviate from it, the deviate from the truth. Assurance of salvation is one of those deviations

The creed uses catholic as an adjective ,not a noun .Any genuine believer/saint is “catholic” and in accordance with the Nicene usage.
To say I am a Baptist "catholic’ or a Catholic “catholic”, or an Orthodox “catholic” is interpretive and ok and equally inclusive to the Creed usage To infer that the adjective “catholic” in the creed is actually referring to only your Church , turning into a noun, is a misrepresentation of the Creed. To infer that your church is the only church exclusively fulfilling all those church adjectives in the Creed is interpretive . The fruit of the latter has been some good, some bad, and some ugly thru out your history ( as is with most churches-you are not alone).

 

[pocohombre]

…not when you leave the Church to start your own church whenever there’s a divergence in thought between the voting members of the not hierarchy that you call Bible Believing Christians–oh wait, I forgot, you don’t need to vote to get a new church going just enough members (say 10) that would agree with your philosophy-of-the-day type theology… never mind that Christ called for One Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

If you truly believe in Christ as your savior and Lord and I do also, are we not One ? Are we not part of the same Body ? Why do you seem to say there are different Bodies of Christ ?

 

[paul_c]

The creed uses catholic as an adjective ,not a noun .Any genuine believer/saint is “catholic” and in accordance with the Nicene usage.
To say I am a Baptist "catholic’ or a Catholic “catholic”, or an Orthodox “catholic” is interpretive and ok and equally inclusive to the Creed usage To infer that the adjective “catholic” in the creed is actually referring to only your Church , turning into a noun, is a misrepresentation of the Creed. To infer that your church is the only church exclusively fulfilling all those church adjectives in the Creed is interpretive . The fruit of the latter has been some good, some bad, and some ugly thru out your history ( as is with most churches-you are not alone).

This interpretation is self serving. When the creed was written, there was only ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. When people break away from that one church, they can not simultaneously claim to be separate, yet part of the One church. Can you show that you adhere to all the teachings of the Church as it existed in 325 AD, when the Creed was written. Obviously not. the founders of your Faith tradition are always clear about their innovations. Like Sola Scriptura (luther), assurance of salvation (Calvin), etc.
Only the Catholic church can trace all its traditions back to the Apostles

 

[paul_c]

If you truly believe in Christ as your savior and Lord and I do also, are we not One ? Are we not part of the same Body ? Why do you seem to say there are different Bodies of Christ ?

There is only one body of Christ. the Catholic Church. When you separate yourself from the Church, you separate from the One body. This need not be permanent, though. You too can be part of the body. You probably are already a large part of the way there. But where you deviate from the church, you deviate from the truth. So I urge you in all sincerity, find out where you differ from Catholic teaching and explore the reasons with an open heart. Let the Holy Spirit lead you where it will.

 

[brb3]

I doubt that his concerns can be addressed since he is rejecting Scripture not Catholic Doctrine.

…it’s like the claim that’s made about “Scripture;” the problem is that no matter how you prove from Scripture their concern is not ever met because those Scriptural passages that they reject do not factor in and those that they do accept they accept not on the content of Scripture but on the skewed interpretation that they favor…

…it’s like proving that water is water!

Maran atha!

Angel

I don’t think a Protestant knowingly would reject scripture…it is their stronghold. But, they can certainly misunderstand its meaning, as there are a wide variety of Protestant interpretations of scripture. Each denomination thinks they alone have it right …basing this on scripture …quoting scripture which says " the HS will guide you unto all truth".

However, the Old Prof past posts indicate he comes to this topic with open mind. He has already stated that if Judas could be proven a true believer …he would see the fallacy of his position and possibly assume the Catholic viewpoint.
.

 

[pocohombre]

This interpretation is self serving. When the creed was written, there was only ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. When people break away from that one church, they can not simultaneously claim to be separate, yet part of the One church. Can you show that you adhere to all the teachings of the Church as it existed in 325 AD, when the Creed was written. Obviously not. the founders of your Faith tradition are always clear about their innovations. Like Sola Scriptura (luther), assurance of salvation (Calvin), etc.
Only the Catholic church can trace all its traditions back to the Apostles

What is more self serving potentially, a church that says it is the only true one or a church that says that any believer is part of the “church”. What is more self serving, a church that says salvation is thru it’s church, or a church that says salvation is thru a personal positive encounter with Jesus Christ himself ? What is more self serving a church that says the only full encounter and life with Christ is exclusive to itself or a church that says the encounter and fullness could be with a number of churches ? Is there such a thing as a second class citizen/journey ,ship to heaven, or would it be a self serving church that claims first class mother ship status… As far as the 325 ad church neither of us looks exactly like them. For sure they were diversified and in doctrine would say it was still universal, not exclusive yet and not opposed to any current protestant doctrine. SS was not needed then for the church had not stayed from scripture yet. Calvin was not needed then either for the church was not yet imbued heavily into works and rites and sacraments, certainly not seven.

 

[pocohombre]

Only the Catholic church can trace all its traditions back to the Apostles

This is an entirely different subject ,well deserving another thread, but your interpretation of history is exclusive to your own church and not to the entire body of Christ. Not all your traditions can be traced to the apostles .Again it could seem self serving to make that claim. For sure the apostles are our foundation and their universal tradition reaches fully to the Body of Christ today.

 

[paul_c]

What is more self serving potentially, a church that says it is the only true one or a church that says that any believer is part of the “church”. What is more self serving, a church that says salvation is thru it’s church, or a church that says salvation is thru a personal positive encounter with Jesus Christ himself ? What is more self serving a church that says the only full encounter and life with Christ is exclusive to itself or a church that says the encounter and fullness could be with a number of churches ? Is there such a thing as a second class citizen/journey ,ship to heaven, or would it be a self serving church that claims first class mother ship status… As far as the 325 ad church neither of us looks exactly like them. For sure they were diversified and in doctrine would say it was still universal, not exclusive yet and not opposed to any current protestant doctrine. SS was not needed then for the church had not stayed from scripture yet. Calvin was not needed then either for the church was not yet imbued heavily into works and rites and sacraments, certainly not seven.

You see it as self serving, but the Church serves Jesus, who founded it. Like Jesus, the Church speaks the truth in the face of hostility. It has always been persecuted, just as Jesus himself was. Jesus too said He was the only way to heaven and He was scoffed at by Jew and Gentile alike. When His Church follows Him in this, those that would like it their own way, complain about its exclusiveness, never recognizing that it is the least exclusive of Churches, welcoming anyone who wants to be saved. When Jesus said that to go to Heaven, you had to eat His body and drink His blood, most of His disciples left (John 6). Yet Jesus persevered as does his Church.

 

[paul_c]

This is an entirely different subject ,well deserving another thread, but your interpretation of history is exclusive to your own church and not to the entire body of Christ. Not all your traditions can be traced to the apostles .Again it could seem self serving to make that claim. For sure the apostles are our foundation and their universal tradition reaches fully to the Body of Christ today.

Lets test that. Start a thread where you detail Catholic traditions that don’t have their basis with Jesus and the Apostles. I am sure we can show you how every Tradition can be traced back through the Early Church Fathers to the Apostles. You are not the first person to make this claim over the last 2000 years so we are well versed in the bridges.

 

[fbl9]

The Gospel according to St.Luke7:30 But the Pharisees and Lawyers, not having been baptized by him brought to not God’s purpose concerning themselves.
What the will of man bringing God’s purpose to not for themselves?
. This is the coffin of presestination as Calvin taught. This proves without any doubt without any attempt of contexting that man’s free will can bring God’s purpose of salvation to not.

 

[pocohombre]

…

…

. both are inspired to seek God’s approval but one offers God a worship

 

[pocohombre]

. When Jesus said that to go to Heaven, you had to eat His body and drink His blood, most of His disciples left (John 6).

First, the church teaches you do not have to eat his flesh as the CC means it to get to heaven, for the church acknowledges that there are others outside the church, who do not believe real presence, who are saved. Why do you take it that you must literally eat yet not take it literally the consequence that Jesus speaks of: to go to heaven ? I would be forced to say if it was literal that all Protetstants who don’t accept RP will not go to heaven. Interesting it was disciples who did not believe FROM THE BEGINNING who left. One could say (well Jesus said in John 6) they were never saved in the first place.

 

[pocohombre]

Lets test that. Start a thread where you detail Catholic traditions that don’t have their basis with Jesus and the Apostles. I am sure we can show you how every Tradition can be traced back through the Early Church Fathers to the Apostles. You are not the first person to make this claim over the last 2000 years so we are well versed in the bridges.

Perhaps, but it is one thing to say it is an apostolic tradition, that the apostles actually did them (heard confession, prayed rosary, believed Mary Immaculate ,even Assumed, a functioning pope, infant regenerational baptism, Mass as a "sacrifice’ offered to God, a separate unmarried priesthood, administered seven sacraments, prayed to saints, prayed for those in purgatory. It’s another thing to call for it’s basis, that they didn’t quite do it but laid groundwork for future interpretation for which I would say that yes ,every thing you do has been related to some interpretive scriptural basis.

 

[pocohombre]

…the fact that we can argue about an issue and present pros and cons does not make it theologically sound… the Jehovah Witnesses preach a “good” Christ who happens to be an angel with a touch of a little god/general in him… they argue with massive pros for their theology and massive cons for everything esle… so would you then consider them Christians?

The fact that Scripture state that Believers must remain in Christ and that they must not return to the old sinfulness lest they perish is enough to derail OSAS/AOF/ORAR… and don’t get the “Scripture” argument started because Scripture tells you that there’s but One Faith, One Baptism, One Gorspel, One… get it?!

Maran atha!

Angel

Just what is your Good News ? What must I do to be saved ? Do I have any assurance?