Assurance of Salvation

[jcrichton]

Nope. I believe you mis-understand freewill and just how damaged it was in the fall. The case that we are spiritually dead is made by Jesus and Paul. But Christians will have the mind of Christ through God’s grace, so the Christian will always want to be righteous and will be sad and troubled when they sin. Augustine and Pelagius wrote on this theology of freewill. The will of man is “born again, a new creation” for any who become a sheep of Jesus (a Christian), and Jesus, the Good Shepherd, will never lose any sheep. Read 1 John and you can see a virtual checklist that the Christian will follow in their new life. That is why they can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13).

…again, OldProf, the Catholic Church, and all Catholics who observe her Teachings, have no problem with Eternal Salvation nor the Omnipotence of God… what the Church Teaches, and Catholics Believe, is that Christ did not give asurance of Salvation in the terms that you (osas/aos) claim… these theologies refuse to accept Biblical evidence that warns against returning to sin or causing others to faulter; the Church Teaches Salvation through God’s Grace but not at the expense of free will since Christ came not to remove free will but to reconcile man with God–which is attested to by Scriptures:

18 Children, this is the final hour; you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and now many Antichrists have already come; from this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They have gone from among us, but they never really belonged to us; if they had belonged to us, they would have stayed with us. But this was to prove that not one of them belonged to us. (1 St. John 2:18-19)

…these were received in the Body of Christ but they rejected Christ and became anti-Christs; they cannot leave the Body if they did not first belonged to the Body:

22 Who is the liar, if not one who claims that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the Antichrist, who denies both the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son cannot have the Father either; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father too. 24 Let what you heard in the beginning remain in you; as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you, you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And the promise he made you himself is eternal life. 26 So much have I written to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 But as for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; since the anointing he gave you teaches you everything, and since it is true, not false, remain in him just as he has taught you. 28 Therefore remain in him now, children, so that when he appears we may be fearless, and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
29 If you know that he is upright you must recognise that everyone whose life is upright is a child of his. (1 St. John 2:22-29)

This is a powerful preaching about Salvation not in assurance of anything but Christ, His Promise, and Adherence to His Teachings… St. John even has the temerity of warning the Believers not to allow themselves to be lead astray… can you imagen how wrong that would seem to all those Believers that were banking on osas/aos… they must have thought that St. John was totally out of his mind by suggesting that the “elect”/“sheep”/“eternally saved” could be lead away from Christ… oh, wait the Believers did not employ the “I’m eternally saved theology,” way back then… sorry!

Nope. Sinners who go to heaven go because Jesus paid the punishment for their sins. They have the righteousness of God.

Regards, OldProf

Sorry OldProf… as hard as you might want that to be the case, Scriptures state otherwise:

6 Then he said to me, ‘It has already happened. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water from the well of life free to anybody who is thirsty; 7 anyone who proves victorious will inherit these things; and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the legacy for cowards, for those who break their word, or worship obscenities, for murderers and the sexually immoral, and for sorcerers, worshippers of false gods or any other sort of liars, is the second death in the burning lake of sulphur.’

10 In the spirit, he carried me to the top of a very high mountain, and showed me Jerusalem, the holy city, coming down out of heaven from God.

22 I could not see any temple in the city since the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb were themselves the temple, 23 and the city did not need the sun or the moon for light, since it was lit by the radiant glory of God, and the Lamb was a lighted torch for it.

Nothing unclean may come into it: no one who does what is loathsome or false, but only those who are listed in the Lamb’s book of life. (Apocalypse 21:6-8, 10, 22-23, 27)

…here’s how we can tell who these players are:

22 After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained. (St. John 20:22-23)

May the Holy Spirit enlinghten your heart and mind!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Fbl9,

That is an excellent question! :thumbsup

From the time Christ’s Public Ministry is introduced by the John the Baptist in Mark 1 and Matthew 3, John is telling people to repent. Maybe he missed the ‘OSAS’ memo - because he certainly did not act like he was already saved. Then we go to Peter on Pentecost Sunday in Acts 2 and he says the same thing: repent and be baptized. And, all of the pages in between say the sme thing - we must repent and humbly approach Christ and ask for His Mercy. The NT is remarkably consistent when it comes to what we must DO to be saved.

One thing, however, that we do not find anywhere in the NT where Christ tell his disciples to relax and take it easy - after all…they are saved now because ‘OSAS’. The fact that ‘OSAS’ was not written down is because it was just understood amongst the disciples.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

…the only place in Scriptures that I can recall where it is clear that Christ tells the Disciples that they are Saved is in St. John 15:1-10–but He makes sure to warn them to stick with Him because without Him we are nothing!

…thems are quite sour grapes… when Christ insists that we must remain in Him and not rely on some special clause/selection… :crying::crying::crying:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

Hi, Fbl9,

That is an excellent question! :thumbsup

From the time Christ’s Public Ministry is introduced by the John the Baptist in Mark 1 and Matthew 3, John is telling people to repent. Maybe he missed the ‘OSAS’ memo - because he certainly did not act like he was already saved. Then we go to Peter on Pentecost Sunday in Acts 2 and he says the same thing: repent and be baptized. And, all of the pages in between say the sme thing - we must repent and humbly approach Christ and ask for His Mercy. The NT is remarkably consistent when it comes to what we must DO to be saved.

One thing, however, that we do not find anywhere in the NT where Christ tell his disciples to relax and take it easy - after all…they are saved now because ‘OSAS’. The fact that ‘OSAS’ was not written down is because it was just understood amongst the disciples.

God bless

One of the things I have learned from Reformed Christians on these threads is that their concept of repentance has nothing to do with turning way from sins. I think they believe that they are to repent of unbelief, and turn toward “belief”. From faithlessness to faith. It seems to be assumed that when a person does this, they will become united wtih Christ, have a new nature, and no longer desire to sin (sin makes them sad). I had to work hard to try to see this in Scripture, since it seems so foreign to the Apostolic faith, but if you cherry pick the right verses, you can support it.

 

[OldProf]

OP: “Sinners who go to heaven go because Jesus paid the punishment for their sins. They have the righteousness of God.”

And you say:

Then why the need to repent in order to avoid punishment in this life?

And this is easy to answer. What do you think a Christian with the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) will do when they realize their old, worldly nature has gotten the better of them and they have sinned - they have been unrighteous?

They will be sorry, of course, and they will REPENT. Isn’t this EXACTLY what the Bible says? I keep emphasizing 1 John, that little letter that has so much to say.

“6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:6-10

Christian’s sin. They don’t want to, but they do. When they do they are sorry. They realize that old, worldly nature has won again and they have sinned against God. They repent and turn away from their path of sin. They confess their sins to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.

“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” 1 John 2:1

“31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.” Romans 8:31-34

We “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17), so we know God and we know when we fall short of Christ’s righteousness. This is a battle that rages in us in this fallen world.

Don’t you ever do that? I’ve done that while driving - a sinful thought that I recognize for what it is and I pray then and there and confess that sin. I’ve heard many Christians provide this type of testimony. That sensitivity to sin is an evidence that we are Christians and that Christ is in us (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I guess the other part of your question is in regards to punishment in this life. Hebrews 12:3-11 shows us that God loves us enough to not ignore our sins. We Christians can certainly can expect God to discipline us when we sin, which is a good reason to confess those sins as soon as possible.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Angel,

You know … this is one of the areas that really bothers me - simple comprehension seems to get lost because of the agenda one must have in reading anything while maintaiing ‘OSAS’ firmly in mind.

In reading all of 1John 2 (veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_John_2) there are a number of conditional statements - statements that contain** “IF”**… “if this then that” is what is being said. There can be no ‘assurance’ with a conditional statement - and we find ourselves back to simple understanding.

There are a number of demands that Christ makes on His followers - both then and now.

** “IF”** we claim to love Christ then we remain faithful to His teaching (John 8, John 14)

** “IF”** we hear His voice we are to DO something - and that is follow Him (John 10). We show our love for Christ by keeping His Commandments.

** “IF”** we Christ’s disciples, then we are to love one another (John 13)

John is really quite clear with all of the ** “IFs”** he uses - there is no ‘assurance’ - but, there is a PROMISE. God is faithful and will keep His Word **IF AND ONLY IF **we DO what He says.

The TULIP author I previously quoted falsely claimed that Catholics teach that they are saved by their ‘WORKS’. We are saved by God’s Grace AND our cooperation with it! I submit that this is the only way to understand the ** “IF”** statements used by John. To claim that an ** “IF”** statement grants ‘assurance’ is to totally lose sight of comprehension. And, that is a problem

“OSAS” is a heresy that demands that the reader of Scripture disregard the words that are there and inject their own traditions of men in their place.

God bless

This is a powerful preaching about Salvation not in assurance of anything but Christ, His Promise, and Adherence to His Teachings… St. John even has the temerity of warning the Believers not to allow themselves to be lead astray… can you imagen how wrong that would seem to all those Believers that were banking on osas/aos… they must have thought that St. John was totally out of his mind by suggesting that the “elect”/“sheep”/“eternally saved” could be lead away from Christ… oh, wait the Believers did not employ the “I’m eternally saved theology,” way back then… sorry!

 

[OldProf]

Hi, Fbl9,

That is an excellent question! :thumbsup

From the time Christ’s Public Ministry is introduced by the John the Baptist in Mark 1 and Matthew 3, John is telling people to repent. Maybe he missed the ‘OSAS’ memo - because he certainly did not act like he was already saved. Then we go to Peter on Pentecost Sunday in Acts 2 and he says the same thing: repent and be baptized. And, all of the pages in between say the sme thing - we must repent and humbly approach Christ and ask for His Mercy. The NT is remarkably consistent when it comes to what we must DO to be saved.

One thing, however, that we do not find anywhere in the NT where Christ tell his disciples to relax and take it easy - after all…they are saved now because ‘OSAS’. The fact that ‘OSAS’ was not written down is because it was just understood amongst the disciples.

God bless

Tom, see what you say above, and see what I have written previously on this thread more than once:

*According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.*

Please notice 2B this time when you are tempted to think that I apparently don’t believe in repentance. We all know the if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved, for the Bible tells us that. For a test for true Christians, List 2 will be true and it includes List 1. True Christians WILL persevere to the end. I really think we should be able to agree on this.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

And, this is why it is so sad - one must manipulate what is there so that it can be replaced with this ‘new teaching’. It reminds me of some of the scientific frauds that have made their appearance first in science journals - and now in history recordings - of people who were easily lead astray.

The (in)famous “Piltdown Man” may rank as the #1 hoax in the scientific community. Here is an interesting link: listverse.com/2008/04/09/top-10-scientific-frauds-and-hoaxes/ ‘OSAS’ may be in close competition for the #3 spot in devious hoaxes - I think #1 goes to ‘Sola Scriptura’ and #2 goes to ‘Private Interpretation’.

God bless

One of the things I have learned from Reformed Christians on these threads is that their concept of repentance has nothing to do with turning way from sins. I think they believe that they are to repent of unbelief, and turn toward “belief”. From faithlessness to faith. It seems to be assumed that when a person does this, they will become united wtih Christ, have a new nature, and no longer desire to sin (sin makes them sad). I had to work hard to try to see this in Scripture, since it seems so foreign to the Apostolic faith, but if you cherry pick the right verses, you can support it.

 

[OldProf]

I hope you all realize that if you are not saved, then OSAS is not an issue. That is why I give the evidence lists. They have Scriptural backing. The conditional statements will nicely compare to the evidence lists.

1 John has conditional statements and then John, the Apostle, says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13.

That is assurance. Seems pretty clear. The whole context of 1 John works toward this bold summary statement. That is why I think the assurance of salvation is a biblical doctrine.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

One of the things I have learned from Reformed Christians on these threads is that their concept of repentance has nothing to do with turning way from sins. I think they believe that they are to repent of unbelief, and turn toward “belief”. From faithlessness to faith. It seems to be assumed that when a person does this, they will become united wtih Christ, have a new nature, and no longer desire to sin (sin makes them sad). I had to work hard to try to see this in Scripture, since it seems so foreign to the Apostolic faith, but if you cherry pick the right verses, you can support it.

They must be somewhat uninformed Reformed Christians. See:

theopedia.com/Repentance

“cherry pick the right verses” - And you guys accuse me of sniping! Of course no one wants to misuse God’s Word. Context is vital, correct?

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I do not think you have answered anything - but, you certainly have repeated yourself - and your worn ‘evidence list’ of misapplied Scripture quotes. Now, let me tell you why:

You can not use one scripture to cancel out another - it just does not work that way - and I hope that is now what you are teaching your students! I am clearly telling you that statements that begin with IF are not one of ‘assuance’ but of conditional behavior. And you just try to dismiss it with yoru evidence list - but, you didn’t even do that - you just you could! Seriously, if you are going to engage then do so.

Here is the connection you seem to be missing with 1John: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” IF we believe in the name of the Son of God then we will keep His commands and obey Him. And we must persevere until the end to collect on God’s Promise. Now, if you want ‘assurance’ that God can neither deceive or be deceived - well, you’ve got that… actually, we all do! But, if you are claiming salvation because you believed, spoke the Lord’s name and even cast out demons (Matt 7 - here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/read/Matthew_7 ) you need to re-read this chapter so you get the idea that the ‘assuance’ you are claiming does not exist.

You know, I have yet to hear from you on your understanding of why Free Will is not free, and how does Matt 25 somehow destroy “OSAS” and those who shout, “Lord! Lord!” (veritasbible.com/drb/read/Matthew_25) As I see it, you really have short on actually addressing the issues that challenge this ‘OSAS’ fantasy. And, I think I have pointed this out before - so, I will stop belaboring the point (at least until you actually rise to the occasion and respond )

God bless

I hope you all realize that if you are not saved, then OSAS is not an issue. That is why I give the evidence lists. They have Scriptural backing. The conditional statements will nicely compare to the evidence lists.

1 John has conditional statements and then John, the Apostle, says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13.

That is assurance. Seems pretty clear. The whole context of 1 John works toward this bold summary statement. That is why I think the assurance of salvation is a biblical doctrine.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

This is truly amazing!

Guanophore (you know the guy you are going to actually debate…) hit it right on target - this ‘evidence list’ you parade around totally misses the point. These verses are indeed lifted out of context and made to serve in support of a man made doctrine. Yes, indeed, context is vital - and this has been brought to your attention seveal times.

For example, your reliance on 1John - essentially claiming that belief is everything becaue that is the way you interpret this one ‘cherry-picked’ verse and dismiss all of the others that do not agree with it.

Let me invite you to actually address just one of the issues you have been given - and just respond to that. And, by this I mean you do not troop out your ‘evidence list’ but actually work on how you are going to refute the argument that Calvin’s claim of ‘assurance’ is a human tradition - dating right back to the 16th Century. (If anyone else came up with ‘OSAS’ I am not aware of it - and I am trying to give Calvin credit for orginality )

God bless

They must be somewhat uninformed Reformed Christians. See:

theopedia.com/Repentance

“cherry pick the right verses” - And you guys accuse me of sniping! Of course no one wants to misuse God’s Word. Context is vital, correct?

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

This ‘evidence list’ really presents no evidence. These are simply phrases written in upper case - and most have decidedly different meanings from Catholic Teaching. There is precious little validity in List 1 - it is built on sand. List 2 needs to be examined to make sure items like a lack of Free Will and ‘OSAS’ have not crept into it. Not all is as it seems.

Now 2B (Repentance) is an interesting item. Shall we look at it in the manner preached by John the Baptist - to repent from sin and to be baptized? Like Peter on that First Pentecost Sunday when he, too, told the crowd to repent of sin and be baptized. And, here we mean a recognition of our own personal sinfullness - by the misuse of our Free Will in chosing sin over God - followed by a genuine sorrow for this sin and repentance. Here is a link that will give you more information: newadvent.org/cathen/11618b.htm

If we believe in Jesus we will be saved. WE both agree on the words - but not their meaning! Belief in Jesus, as I see it, means that you love Him by honoring Him and obeying His commands until our last breath. And it is this perseverance to the end that will be judged and the promise of Heaven kept. As I understand ‘assurance’ as it applies to this sentence, all one has to do is ‘believe in Jesus’ and the matter is solved forever!

So, if you want agreement - read the paragraph above - and if it is correct as you understand it let me know - and if not then make the necessary correction(s). This would be a good step towards agreement on what it is is meant.

God bless

Tom, see what you say above, and see what I have written previously on this thread more than once:

*According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.*

Please notice 2B this time when you are tempted to think that I apparently don’t believe in repentance. We all know the if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved, for the Bible tells us that. For a test for true Christians, List 2 will be true and it includes List 1. True Christians WILL persevere to the end. I really think we should be able to agree on this.

Regards, OldProf

 

[GoodME]

I view “assurance” from the point of view that it is clear that some people who are walking around right now are saved/will be saved with certitude.

However, I believe it to be of the utmost presumption to believe that we are, with certitude, in those ranks.

If we are assured our salvation, then we have no need of faith, because salvation then becomes fact.

Salvation is a fact…but we have to have faith that we may be in those who are saved, and we should exercise and live that faith accordingly…

Sometimes I liken this to those who believe in reincarnation always believing they were someone famous in their “previous life”. Nobody was ever just “Joe Schmoe” in their previous life.

I believe those who believe their salvation is assured are believing the same way…just assuming as fact the best possible outcome for themselves. The caution is in believing this to the point that one no longer exercises their faith.

 

[Bookcat]

May I live looking forward to the Resurrection! In the Joy of Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Rejoicing in already beginning to know* true life* in him.

(Now could I turn away from Christ before I die…rejecting in effect the life he gave me in Faith and Baptism (and all the other ways) and die in choice? --yes such is a possibility. May I remain in Christ always!)

By the grace of God I intend to remain in Christ…a branch on his vine …to “abide in him” …to not be “cut off” (due to my own choice)…(John 15:5-6, and Romans 11:22).

And if in this life I should unhappily commit a mortal sin…I intend to call out to the Good Shepherd and go to those whom he has given the authority to absolve me…to be forgiven and returned to life (John 20:22-23). I pray that I may always remain in him and thus leave this life remaining in life (by his grace).

*We walk by *Faith not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

and are saved in hope (see Romans 8:24)…and thus I have the great “certitude of hope”!

A real kind of assurance I have. A very real confidence. I do not though have “infallible” certitude. For example I do not know that I will in fact remain living in Christ and not betray him and die separated from him. And even now I could commit a mortal sin (Lord preserve me from this!). Indeed Jesus even said that not everyone who says to him “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Matt 7:21)

But I have a great confidence in Christ my hope!

*I know in whom I have believed *(2 Tim 1:12)

My Faith and my hope and trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ! The Good Shepherd!

In Jesus of Nazareth is true life.

Pope Benedict XVI:

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour."

– November 2006

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

---

(the above link also gets into Faith and Works in Paul …for more on Paul and Faith and Works:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html)

 

[guanophore]

If we believe in Jesus we will be saved. WE both agree on the words - but not their meaning! Belief in Jesus, as I see it, means that you love Him by honoring Him and obeying His commands until our last breath.

God bless

This is really the crux of the matter. During the Reformation, theologians changed the meanings of the terms to fit with their systematic creations. The Apostles would not recognize the results!

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

This is truly amazing!

Guanophore (you know the guy you are going to actually debate…) hit it right on target - this ‘evidence list’ you parade around totally misses the point. These verses are indeed lifted out of context and made to serve in support of a man made doctrine. Yes, indeed, context is vital - and this has been brought to your attention seveal times.

For example, your reliance on 1John - essentially claiming that belief is everything becaue that is the way you interpret this one ‘cherry-picked’ verse and dismiss all of the others that do not agree with it.

Let me invite you to actually address just one of the issues you have been given - and just respond to that. And, by this I mean you do not troop out your ‘evidence list’ but actually work on how you are going to refute the argument that Calvin’s claim of ‘assurance’ is a human tradition - dating right back to the 16th Century. (If anyone else came up with ‘OSAS’ I am not aware of it - and I am trying to give Calvin credit for orginality )

God bless

Obviously my point was that repentance is evident in Christians and inconsistent with guanophore’s experience. The Theopedia site clearly demonstrated that fact.

Tom and guanophore, perhaps we have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the evidence lists. What I have found interesting is that the folks following and commenting on this thread had made statements that I look at and ask, why did they even say that? Isn’t it clear from Scripture (where the evidence list comes from) that if a person does that then the “evidence” says they are not a Christian.

For example. If a “professing” Christian says to me, “I don’t have to repent because I have the righteousness of Christ and am saved, so once saved always saved. I am free to sin all I want and enjoy it and I’ll still go on to heaven. No worries.”

I would tell them that they should not think they are a Christian, because the Bible says they need to repent of their sins, they need to be obedient to love God and love their neighbor, that good works not sin demonstrate true believers. Plenty of Scriptures tell us that, and that is the normal behavior of Christians. I would tell them to examine themselves to make sure they really are a Christian, because with that attitude they are demonstrating that they are not saved at all. They are in the world on the wide road to destruction.

From the other spectrum, say that I become a Roman Catholic. I will have my friends come to me and say, “Come on, let’s just sit down and go through 1 John.” And we’ll sit down and they’ll say,

“Do you agree with that verse.”
“Yes.”
“And that one?”
“Oh yes!”
“And that one too?”
“Certainly, yes!”

And on and on. During this time we’ll discuss context. There will be a lot of “yes’s” and likely total agreement.

But then we’ll get to 1 John 5:13. That is where I’ll have to say that I really cannot “know” that I will have eternal life in heaven or that “the evil one does not touch” me (1 John 5:18) because that would be the sin of presumption. I have a heavenly hope, but will only find out that I’m going to heaven for sure after I have died. This will create a lot of discussion on the doctrine of salvation.

This will happen to me if I convert.

So, it is obvious that I will have to have a strong understanding of the RC arguments regarding the proper interpretation of 1 John chapter 5 (not to mention other NT verses pertaining to salvation and election and freewill and predestination). We are to “earnestly contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3).

Got to go.

Regards, OldProf

 

[guanophore]

  Obviously my point was that repentance is evident in Christians and inconsistent with guanophore's experience. The Theopedia site clearly demonstrated that fact.

I think you may have lost me here. Did you think I believed that Christians are not repentant? In my experience, more Evangelical Christians have a better formed, sensitive, and penitential conscience than most Catholics, especially those who do not deign to fill the pews.

Tom and guanophore, perhaps we have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the evidence lists.

I don’t think so.

 What I have found interesting is that the folks following and commenting on this thread had made statements that I look at and ask, why did they even say that? Isn't it clear from Scripture (where the evidence list comes from) that if a person does that then the "evidence" says they are not a Christian.

Yes, it is clear to me that the lists do come from Scripture, however, we understand the nature of the Christian differently. Catholics understand human nature, and the divine nature in the Christian from the point of view of the Apostles, rather than the point of view of Calvin, so we have different concepts of what Christian expereince is like. The Apostles taught no distinction between “true” and other Chrisians, as you do, and that all Christians can fall into the flesh, and live by the flesh, and not by the Spirit. The NT is full of letters to Christians with references to behaviors engaged in by believers that are in opposition to the “evidence” lists you present.

For example. If a "professing" Christian says to me, "I don't have to repent because I have the righteousness of Christ and am saved, so once saved always saved. I am free to sin all I want and enjoy it and I'll still go on to heaven. No worries."

I would tell them that they should not think they are a Christian, because the Bible says they need to repent of their sins, they need to be obedient to love God and love their neighbor, that good works not sin demonstrate true believers. Plenty of Scriptures tell us that, and that is the normal behavior of Christians. I would tell them to examine themselves to make sure they really are a Christian, because with that attitude they are demonstrating that they are not saved at all. They are in the world on the wide road to destruction.

It is good that you have been able to retain this Catholic perspective, despite having been steeped in heretical views. We would make the distinction that the person may not be “in Christ”, as opposed to not being a “true” Christian because we believe that once the soul has been sealed by the promised HS this cannot be undone. Once adopted by God, we cannot get “unadopted”. We can wander from our Father’s house, and fail to be united with our heavnely inheritance, but the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, so the seal is permanent.

But then we'll get to 1 John 5:13. That is where I'll have to say that I really cannot "know" that I will have eternal life in heaven or that "the evil one does not touch" me (1 John 5:18) because that would be the sin of presumption. I have a heavenly hope, but will only find out that I'm going to heaven for sure after I have died. This will create a lot of discussion on the doctrine of salvation.

This will happen to me if I convert.

The passages in I John 13 and 18 are in the present tense. The are written to assure the believer about their present state of grace. One can know that one has eternal life (is in right relationship with God and therefore “saved”) by, as you say, the evidence, as well as by the very great and precious promises. However, unlike the folllowers of Calvin, Catholics do not believe that the nature of sin has changed. We believe, as the Apostles instructed, that sin separated humans from God, including those who have been sealed for the day of redemption.

So, it is obvious that I will have to have a strong understanding of the RC arguments regarding the proper interpretation of 1 John chapter 5 (not to mention other NT verses pertaining to salvation and election and freewill and predestination). We are to "earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 1:3).

Got to go.

Regards, OldProf

I think it is very difficult for Reformed Christians to come into an Apostolic understanding of Christianity. The process is assisted by reading the work of the Fathers. Catholics believe that their writings accurately reflect what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Two threads on same topic merged and moved to Apologetics.

 

[guanophore]

Two threads on same topic merged and moved to Apologetics.

Thanks for doing that! I was going to ask, but I know you are already busy.

 

[fbl9]

OP: chop…
We “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17), so we know God and we know when we fall short of Christ’s righteousness. This is a battle that rages in us in this fallen world.

Don’t you ever do that? I’ve done that while driving - a sinful thought that I recognize for what it is and I pray then and there and confess that sin. I’ve heard many Christians provide this type of testimony. That sensitivity to sin is an evidence that we are Christians and that Christ is in us (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I guess the other part of your question is in regards to punishment in this life. Hebrews 12:3-11 shows us that God loves us enough to not ignore our sins. We Christians can certainly can expect God to discipline us when we sin, which is a good reason to confess those sins as soon as possible.

Regards, OldProf

kkk