teeboy,Serious isn’t the question.
Is it out of fear or love of God. Is one seriously sorry for their sins b/c they offend God or is it b/c they fear punishment?
jchrichton,…actually… you may be reading the wrong passages in Scriptures… Jesus never told anyone to go to a Priest because Being God He could forgive sins directly… but He did establish His Church and the very first thing He spoke about was delegation of Power/Authority:
…and we know that the emerging Church followed Christ’s Commands:
…the only passage in Scriptures that speaks about seeking God directly is about prayer… and it concerns pride and self-gratification.
Maran atha!
Angel
jchrichton,There’s nothing to be done for Salvation… except for accepting that we must abide in Christ so that He may Abide in us… this means that we must Love Him and we cannot Love Him if we do not Obey His Commandments… one clear path that most take (always savers) is that Christ already died for all sin so there’s no need to repent and return to Christ… yet, if you say that you do… you cannot employ your own terms… Jesus has already done this by establishing His Church and it is through the Sacraments that we can demonstrate that we are Obedient and abiding in Christ (St. John 3:16-21; 15:1-10; 1 St. John 1:1-10)
…but it is not as simple as claiming “…I’ve asked God to forgive me and He has done so!”:
Maran atha!
Angel
highrigger,jchrichton,
No need to repent? You mean you follow Gods Law? “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” The Young Rich Man (Matt 19:16) also thought so and hard a hard time dealing with Jesus. It ended sadly.
It is not complicated. Jesus promised God would forgive if we ask. That is our assurance.
If you do not accept that I understand why you have none.
Peace, JohnR
That is a good clarification. I see many Christians who minimize sin, as if God winks at it.If your asking does the Church, in her teaching, minimize sin the answer is no she does not. If you are asking if some Catholics tend to minimize sin - then the answer is most certainly yes, some do.
That sin leads to death (Rom 6:23) should stir Christians to AT LEAST know what God says about it (read the Bible) and make decisions to act righteously (be obedient). Consider the following Bible verses: James 2:10, Rom 8:1 (the culmination of how we are not under condemnation that follows Paul’s discourse in Rom 7:14-25 where we see the struggle between our sinful flesh and our spirit which has been made alive), Col 2:13-14, 1 Peter 3:18 (good news). A Christian has the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) even though he struggles with sin while in this world. That is a blessed assurance!Yes we need to take all sin seriously.
As for whether ANY sin is a mortal sin, this begins to get more deeply into the theology of sin and truthfully I may not be the best one to guide you on this. The reason I say this is because it gets into matters of gravity of matter as well as the voluntary or involuntary nature of a given act.
I will say this. ANY sin that is voluntarily committed is a grave sin. For me personally, I tend to agree with you that any sin committed with knowledge and consent of will is a mortal sin and needs to be confessed. Others in the Church take a somewhat different view…They might be able to guide you more thoroughly in these things.
OldProf Quote:Yes this is a possibility. At the other end of the spectrum is the person who suffers from scrupulosity. For them everything is a mortal sin…It can become very problematic.
OldProf Quote:I think that this is a fine position so long as it does not lead to scrupulosity.
You do “get” me – and it IS TRUE, the Christian CAN sin all they want. (God chastens his own! Heb 12:3-11. Why would ANY Christian want to put themselves in a position to be chastened by God?)To a large extent I think you sound very Catholic here - Except that I don’t think any Catholic would use the phrase, “sin as much as I want”. I recognize that what you are saying is that you will never WANT to sin so, for the Christian sinning as much as you want means zero sin.
However - since we recognize that we have not been perfected, we will occasionally fall, either by habit or through some trial or other. When we recognize our error or, as you rightly put it, the Holy spirit corrects us, we immediately repent and make correction (and restitution if necessary) and seek to grow in holiness.
As I say - this is very much a proper Catholic viewpoint.
Peace
James
I humbly agree that we should continue to seek the truth and seek to know God. Can the Scriptures help? “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV. Time in the Scriptures is time well spent. Imagine being in heaven and speaking to Zephaniah and he asks, “What did you think of my book?” Those who neglect Bible study may be embarrassed later (or worse - the fact that they do not have any desire to know God through His word may be an indicator they aren’t a Christian at all). Consider Acts 17:11 and 2 Tim 2:15.Spoken like someone who knows scripture fairly well, which, as pointed out in this thread and others, can easily be misinterpreted or interpreted in various ways- but doesn’t know God particularly well. The Church knows the heart of God better than anyone else and her understanding of scripture serves to under gird that knowledge. Continue to seek true understanding more earnestly and He will reveal Himself and His will with greater depth. Right now your understanding is a rather simple academic or intellectual one.
Having made Peter His Supreme Vicar, Christ gave His Apostles special power to bind and loose, offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice, forgive sins, teaching the Faith – all priestly duties. The appointment of elders with rites of prayer and fasting was the ordaining of priests. Timothy and Titus are bishops since they ordain. (1 Tim 5:19-22).highrigger1 #182
No priests are ever mentioned and there were no priests in the NT. No need for them if one can pray direct to God as Jesus taught.
If you pay close attention this is an example not of pluralism but of correct worship (akin to Cain and Abel); one person thinks of himself as righteous and needs nothing but his drum which he aptly drums… the other person knows that he is a sinner and must account to God for his faults… further, there was no Church for them to go to as Jesus had not concluded His Stay.jchrichton,
What about the Lords Prayer where Jesus taught the diciples how to pray?
What about the parable of the tax collector and the pharisee (Luke 18:9)
In both cases Jesus teaches to pray for forgiveness direct to God.
Perhaps you misinterpret Matt 16:18. No priests are ever mentioned and there were no priests in the NT. No need for them if one can pray direct to God as Jesus taught.
Peace, JohnR
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ (St. Matthew 16:18-19)
‘Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.’ (St. Luke 10:16)
…there’s an established Church depicted in the above passages… though quite rudimentary, the Church’s focus and center point is: One:46 Each day, with one heart, they regularly went to the Temple but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously; 47 they praised God and were looked up to by everyone. Day by day the Lord added to their community those destined to be saved. (Acts 2:46-47)
Maran atha!18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world, 19 and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth. 20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. 21 May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. 22 I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. 23 With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me. (St. John 17:18-23)
…it ended sadly because Jesus did not give him a “good boy!” …and sent him on his way… Jesus demanded all of him: “sell what you own, give to the poor, follow Me!”jchrichton,
No need to repent? You mean you follow Gods Law? “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” The Young Rich Man (Matt 19:16) also thought so and hard a hard time dealing with Jesus. It ended sadly.
It is not complicated. Jesus promised God would forgive if we ask. That is our assurance.
If you do not accept that I understand why you have none.
Peace, JohnR
…Jesus sadness comes from the knowledge that man refuses to yield his will to God’s… even in spite of Christ’s offer of the other Paraclete, many seek the Father without the Son or the Son on their own terms:15 If you love me you will keep my commandments. 16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you for ever, 17 the Spirit of truth whom the world can never accept since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. 18 I shall not leave you orphans; I shall come to you. 19 In a short time the world will no longer see me; but you will see that I live and you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father and you in me and I in you. 21 Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.’ 22 Judas – not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened, that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?’ 23 Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him. 24 Anyone who does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not my own: it is the word of the Father who sent me. (St. John 14:15-24)
…though we are called to Stand (Witness) the goal is not to stand alone:22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers! 24 ‘Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock. 25 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and hurled themselves against that house, and it did not fall: it was founded on rock. 26 But everyone who listens to these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and struck that house, and it fell; and what a fall it had!’ (St. Matthew 7:22-27)
Maran atha!22 I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. 23 With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity… (St. John 17:22-23a)
jcricton,If you pay close attention this is an example not of pluralism but of correct worship (akin to Cain and Abel); one person thinks of himself as righteous and needs nothing but his drum which he aptly drums… the other person knows that he is a sinner and must account to God for his faults… further, there was no Church for them to go to as Jesus had not concluded His Stay.
The priest is superflous as there were no priests in the NT church. But the Church is us as Paul explains.…oh yeah… I forgot: “forgive us as we forgive…” sounds like we can go directly to God doesn’t it… however, the clause is “as we forgive;” if the Priest is superflous so is the Church… so Christ must have had it wrong then?
We are the church. There is no other option.Christ did not institute His Church so that we can have just another option… that is a rendering of those who seek to be their own authority… once there was one Gospel and one Church… now everybody is a theologean and a scholar who can determine what God really meant… ergo:
:…there’s an established Church depicted in the above passages… though quite rudimentary, the Church’s focus and center point is
Anna,highrigger,
Is it your claim that this is all the New Testament says about salvation—that nothing else is required other than asking forgiveness?
Anna
jcrichton,…it ended sadly because Jesus did not give him a “good boy!” …and sent him on his way… Jesus demanded all of him: “sell what you own, give to the poor, follow Me!”
…we cannot follow Jesus when we are constantly reinventing the way to God. You may have the assurance that you think you will never lose Salvation… I have not such assurance… but do not pitty me… I have Jesus’ Who is the Resurrection and the Life… it is He Who is my assurance… I know that if I remain in Him I will not be cast away… but I know that remaining in Him is not just quoting Scriptures back to God:
Dont you think His sadness came because the man did not realize he needed to repent? that he thought he already met Gods Law? Then Jesus had to remind him that required that he give up all that he had for the benefit of others who had nothing. He of course would not do that just as we do not. The man could not recognize how he had failed Gods Law and so could not deal with Jesus.…Jesus sadness comes from the knowledge that man refuses to yield his will to God’s… even in spite of Christ’s offer of the other Paraclete, many seek the Father without the Son or the Son on their own terms:
Seriously what do i have in this life that if lost means anything, my salvation is in the ‘bag’. There is nothing God can do to me that would cause me to fear.Hasten my end? Why that would be grand for i get heaven. Take my family? then God is no longer just, punishing others for some one else.Take my wealth? I have not the attachment to it so it would of no loss for i will still have heaven.You do “get” me – and it IS TRUE, the Christian CAN sin all they want. (God chastens his own! Heb 12:3-11. Why would ANY Christian want to put themselves in a position to be chastened by God?)
In His Grace, OldProf
To fbl9, I try to answer the posts chronologically. Romans 11:22 is no problem at all and will be answered soon, with proper context as it should be. It is really an all about God theology.Seriously what do i have in this life that if lost means anything, my salvation is in the ‘bag’. There is nothing God can do to me that would cause me to fear.Hasten my end? Why that would be grand for i get heaven. Take my family? then God is no longer just, punishing others for some one else.Take my wealth? I have not the attachment to it so it would of no loss for i will still have heaven.
Sure read and quote scripture all you want but if you want to support error then there is no use of scripture.
Yet you haven’t quoted Romans 11:22 Why not? Is because you know it clearly defies your postion. Reading your “teachings” one can’t help but think this is me theology.
God picked me
I repent beacuse i fear loss for myself in this life
I repent because i loose rewards for myself
John,Anna,
Jesus taught repent and believe. Along with that He asked us to baptise others into the church and remember Him via His body and blood. He asked us to trust Gods love and forgiveness and seek to follow Gods Law.
What more do you want? Peace, JohnR
highrigger1,. . . .My assurance is based on Gods Grace just as yours. . . .
anna,John,
What more do you want? I want you to acknowledge there are many factors in salvation such as God’s Grace; faith; loving God with your heart mind and soul; loving your neighbor as yourself; Baptism; The Lord’s Supper/Holy Eucharist; Perseverance, bearing good fruit, etc.
Peace,
Anna
=Anna Scott;9220781]highrigger1,
anna,Claiming assurance of salvation involves judging your own soul, which none of us have the authority to do.
Endure in ones faith and trust in Christs promises of course. What else is there to endure about? But again faith and trust in Christs promises is our assurance of our salvation.Why not? Are the promises true? Of course they are so we may count and trust in them and in Gods love and forgiveness. Right? Why should we not? Not to do so is a lack of faith.=Remember, Jesus did not even give the Apostles assurance of salvation. In sending out the Apostles, Jesus told them of the coming persecution they would face and he said, **“the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
**
Matthew 10:
16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Yes, it does mean following God’s law. That’s the meaning of Matt 25:31-46, Mark 10:17, Rom 2:13, Gal 6:7-10, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, etc. Love is the entire goal, BTW, it actually constitutes the justice of man, that which his integrity consists of, that which makes him whole/holy-ready for heaven, capable of “seeing” God. Anything less means we still don’t have our sights set on Him above all else.anna,
Of course but one who loves and trusts God to keep His promises to always forgive when we ask. That is our assurance of salvation. That of course includes Gods Grace and our faith and loving God.
It does not include following Gods Law “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” because no one does that. That is why we need Gods Grace, so we can be saved by God Grace via our faith and trust.
Peace, JohnR
Anna,
Jesus taught repent and believe. Along with that He asked us to baptise others into the church and remember Him via His body and blood. He asked us to trust Gods love and forgiveness and seek to follow Gods Law.
What more do you want? Peace, JohnR
John,
What more do you want? I want you to acknowledge there are many factors in salvation such as God’s Grace; faith; loving God with your heart mind and soul; loving your neighbor as yourself; Baptism; The Lord’s Supper/Holy Eucharist; Perseverance, bearing good fruit, etc.
Peace,
Anna
highrigger1,
Claiming assurance of salvation involves judging your own soul, which none of us have the authority to do.
Remember, Jesus did not even give the Apostles assurance of salvation. In sending out the Apostles, Jesus told them of the coming persecution they would face and he said, "the one who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:
16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Peace,
Anna
Please support your claim regarding assurance of salvation. Holy Scripture would be a good place to start.Of course but one who loves and trusts God to keep His promises to always forgive when we ask. That is our assurance of salvation. That of course includes Gods Grace and our faith and loving God.
John,It does not include following Gods Law “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” because no one does that. That is why we need Gods Grace, so we can be saved by God Grace via our faith and trust.