Assurance of Salvation

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by jcrichton
If you pay close attention this is an example not of pluralism but of correct worship (akin to Cain and Abel); one person thinks of himself as righteous and needs nothing but his drum which he aptly drums… the other person knows that he is a sinner and must account to God for his faults… further, there was no Church for them to go to as Jesus had not concluded His Stay.

Yes… didn’t you hear it?, Christ Commanded that the Church go onto the world (not just Israel anymore) to preach Salvation (Gospel: Good News) to all and Baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit… the Old Testament (Covenant) economy passed away:

20 ‘Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, though you say that Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.’ 21 Jesus said: Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know; for salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming – indeed is already here – when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth. (St. John 4:20-24)

…oh yeah… I forgot: “forgive us as we forgive…” sounds like we can go directly to God doesn’t it… however, the clause is “as we forgive;” if the Priest is superflous so is the Church… so Christ must have had it wrong then?

…wow… our Bibles are truly different… here’s the establishment of the Priesthood:

15 But I have special confidence in writing on some points to you, to refresh your memories, because of the grace that was given to me by God. 16 I was given grace to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the gentiles, dedicated to offer them the gospel of God, so that gentiles might become an acceptable offering, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:15-16)

1 Here is a saying that you can rely on: to want to be a presiding elder is to desire a noble task. 2 That is why the presiding elder must have an impeccable character. Husband of one wife, he must be temperate, discreet and courteous, hospitable and a good teacher… 8 Similarly, deacons must be respectable, not double-tongued, moderate in the amount of wine they drink and with no squalid greed for money.

1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach… 8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; (1 Timothy 3:1-8–KJV for comparison also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyter)

Christ did not institute His Church so that we can have just another option… that is a rendering of those who seek to be their own authority… once there was one Gospel and one Church… now everybody is a theologean and a scholar who can determine what God really meant… ergo:

True enough… but only if we are part of the One Body (2 Corinthians 11:4; Ephesians 3:6; Philippians 1:27; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10:17; 12:13, 27; Ephesians 4:4; Colossians 3:15); but the problem is that when every Christian determines for his/herself what constitutes Gospel, Faith, Fellowship, Love, Worship… Christ’s Body is not only divided but on a constant state of war… once there was Luther and Calvin and their cronies… today the schisms have a life of their own and there’s no end in sight as each “Believer” seeks to appease his/her ego reinventing Christ’s Church in his/her own image and likeness.

…there’s an established Church depicted in the above passages… though quite rudimentary, the Church’s focus and center point is:

18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world, 19 and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth. 20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. 21 May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. 22 I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. 23 With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me. (St. John 17:18-23)
Yes and it is us. Not just you. You cannot support that.

Peace, JohnR

…again, JohnR, “us” as the Body only works if “us” are defined by Christ’s Gospel and the Church He established… once someone starts preaching a different Gospel, one that rejects Scriptures and the Church established by Christ… he/she is no longer part of the Body… a “Christian” group/church whose principals reject Christ and His Church is deep in rampant error!

My statement is based on Scriptures just check the above passage (St. John 17:18-23): we are called by Christ to Be One in HIM… Christianity is not a pluralistic existence where majority rules or where the “in/hot/cool” clicks determines what’s “in” and what’s “out;” Christianity is an existence in submission to God in the One Body: Christ Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton,

I never said it was just quoting scripture. Where did you get that idea?
My assurance is based on Gods Grace just as yours. So it sounds like you do rely on your assurance as I do.

…sorry, I do tend to go with past experiences… as far as I can tell most people who hold on to “assurance of Salvation” do not find it in Christ but in the content of the Scriptures (’…see, here’s that passage: we’re Saved!’)…

…my assurance is Christ: I am nothing without Him (no amount of Sacred Scriptures can Save me unless I abide in Him so that He may Abide in me); I carry a Crucifix not because I think nothing can harm me if I have it on me (which is pure superstition)… but because I am reminded of His Sacrifice for my Salvation… so my assurance is what I know He did for me (humanity) not what is written in Scriptures… it is the same argument St. Paul put forth… if a person relies on the Law to obtain Salvation he/she is rejecting/putting aside God’s Grace: Christ Jesus!

Dont you think His sadness came because the man did not realize he needed to repent? that he thought he already met Gods Law? Then Jesus had to remind him that required that he give up all that he had for the benefit of others who had nothing. He of course would not do that just as we do not. The man could not recognize how he had failed Gods Law and so could not deal with Jesus.

Peace, JohnR

…the Call is to Walk with Jesus (1 St. John 1 and 2); the rich man (as most of us) simply stopped at observing the Commandments (worship God, do no harm…) but he could not relinquish his “self” (ego) and couldn’t hear beyong “give up wealth and comfort.” It is the same today… many seek a “gentler and kindler” God who assures everyones Salvation even against their own wills, a special brand of both theology where God Saves everyone that can quote Scriptures… no matter what!

…perhaps you and I are simply expressing the same concern in different vocabulary since you, as I, agree that Salvation is more than acquiescing to the letter of the Law (obey the dos and don’ts), that it also requires repentence and return to God and that we must relinquish “self” and abide in Christ…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

anna,

Of course but one who loves and trusts God to keep His promises to always forgive when we ask. That is our assurance of salvation. That of course includes Gods Grace and our faith and loving God.

It does not include following Gods Law “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” because no one does that. That is why we need Gods Grace, so we can be saved by God Grace via our faith and trust.

Peace, JohnR

…JohnR, but it must include it! I cannot claim to love God Whom I have never seen while hating man (mankind) who is right next to me… I have to employ the golden rule: Love Yahweh God above all with all my strength, heart, mind… and my neighbor as myself… Jesus clearly Teaches that the fullness of the Law (10 Commandments) is found on these two!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fbl9]

To fbl9, I try to answer the posts chronologically. Romans 11:22 is no problem at all and will be answered soon, with proper context as it should be. It is really an all about God theology.

In God’s Grace, OldProf

hi oldprof is now too soon.

 

[mackbrislawn]

anna,

Of course but one who loves and trusts God to keep His promises to always forgive when we ask. That is our assurance of salvation. That of course includes Gods Grace and our faith and loving God.

It does not include following Gods Law “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” because no one does that. That is why we need Gods Grace, so we can be saved by God Grace via our faith and trust.

Peace, JohnR

Agreed.

But what is it that God forgives when we ask? I would think He forgives us because we didn’t follow His Law. But you say it does not include following God’s Law. So what does He forgive us for, if not following His Law?

 

[fhansen]

Agreed.

But what is it that God forgives when we ask? I would think He forgives us because we didn’t follow His Law. But you say it does not include following God’s Law. So what does He forgive us for, if not following His Law?

God continuously offers forgivenss, but He still expects us to ‘go, and sin no more’. The difference between the Old and New Covenants is that, in the new, we’re not merely forgiven but also offered the grace to become who He created us to be, to ‘sin no more’. From the CCC:

**2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:
God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.13

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart.16 However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:
If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.20

1967 The Law of the Gospel “fulfills,” refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection.21 In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the “kingdom of heaven.” It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23

**

 

[OldProf]

hi oldprof is now too soon.

I detect your patience is growing thin. I will certainly try hard to provide some overdue responses to your questions and others this evening and tomorrow. My work schedule has been very hectic with several projects due near the end of April and first part of May. If you know people who want to go into electrical engineering, I would suggest power systems, as most of the engineers in that field are like me, old guys with gray hair!

Peace in Christ, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

I detect your patience is growing thin. I will certainly try hard to provide some overdue responses to your questions and others this evening and tomorrow. My work schedule has been very hectic with several projects due near the end of April and first part of May. If you know people who want to go into electrical engineering, I would suggest power systems, as most of the engineers in that field are like me, old guys with gray hair!

Peace in Christ, OldProf

thanks. not worried like i said is now too soon and i guess it is/was. later it shall be.

 

[OldProf]

I pointed out in my post several places in the Gospels where Jesus himself speaks of those who fall away. I’m sure that you did not “snip” that section above for any reason other than space, but when we discuss assurance, these passages must be taken into account. For that reason, I repeat what I posted in my earlier post.

Scripture supports that there are people in the world today who believe they are good Christians and are “saved” etc, but who are going to wind up being condemned even though they prophesied and cast our demons and cry Lord Lord (Mt 7:21-23). There are those who are going to receive the word with joy but then fall away (Mt 13:20-21). There are those who will seek to enter and will not be able (Luke 13:24).
So - while we can easily say that the “Lord Lord” crowd might be the deceivers, what of those who receive the word with joy but have no root? What of those who try to enter the narrow door but are unable? Did God not start a good work in them? Did they not believe that they were “saved” and “born again”?
Now - as a systematic theology type, - and I want to emphasize this part strongly - I have no doubt but that you realize that when two seemingly contradictory views can produce Scriptural evidence to support their case, it is necessary to take ALL of the factors into account - not to prove one or the other right or wrong, but rather to arrive together at a fuller understanding of Truth.

So - allow me to propose this. Jesus said that the path is narrow that leads to salvation. In this image we can see the possibility, if we are not careful, of getting too far off line to the right or to the left. the person who puts too little trust in God’s promises (assurances) runs the risk of falling into the despair, of failing to see God as ever being able to forgive them, or that they are ever “good enough” to get into heaven so they give up ever trying. On the other hand, the person who puts too much emphasis on “assurance” runs the risk of becoming complacent and fail to bear fruit and so end up being among those who are condemned crying, “Lord lord, did we not…”, or asking, “Lord when did we see you…”

Two extremes - either one of which can get one off of the narrow path and into the ditch.
For this reason Scripture provides evidences to engender both Joy AND Perseverance, Confidence AND Caution.

Well, as the systematic theology type, I realize that God does not contradict Himself nor is He the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). If any contradiction happened, then we could realistically point to 1000+ errors in the Scriptures and find it difficult to really pick and choose what is true. It would be subjective. I don’t think I’m speaking to anyone on this forum who accepts that the Bible has errors or contradictions. But, if so, then just know there are great reasons to believe the Bible is an indestructible book, the anvil which has broken all the hammers ever brought against it.

That said, we come back to the assurance of salvation. Is it taught in the Bible? Yes, as I’ve shown earlier, 1 John 5:13, in full context with the entire letter, says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” ESV

So John says I/we can know.

What must I believe in? Of course, that is of utmost importance. What evidence is there that I am indeed one of the elect of God, or one of the sheep that will never perish? So we are to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5) to make sure we are in the faith, we are to test all things (1 Thess 5:21), to know Him and be known by Him (John 10:14-15), and we are to believe in Jesus Christ as revealed in the Scriptures. He is our Savior, which simply means we are not to trust in our own works, but trust in the works performed by and finished by Jesus on our behalf. The “short” Gospel we are to believe is given in 1 Cor 15:3-5, so we MUST believe in the right Jesus. A Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness have a false Jesus, so their belief is based on a Jesus who never existed. John the Baptist says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 KJV. The verses you’ve quoted above can describe that false assurance.

Notice what Jesus said about going to heaven. In John 14:1-4, Jesus describes what He will prepare for His disciples, and indicates they know where He is going. But they don’t! Thomas asks the question we should all ask Jesus and Jesus answers (John 14:5-6). “Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Jesus is THE WAY. You MUST believe in the right Jesus. If you believe in the right Jesus, then you are a sheep of His, one of His elect, and one who will never be lost. Proof? Check out these verses: John 9:1 thru 10:30, full context of Jesus sheep, and John 6:37-40, context that God selects the followers and Jesus will never lose one of them.

If you believe in the right Jesus, you can have assurance. He took the punishment for your sins (Gal 1:4, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 4:10). If you are trusting in Jesus + your own good works, then you will never have assurance because you will see yourself as always falling short of the standard of perfection (Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 KJV).

You don’t want to face Jesus as judge someday and have Him say, “Didn’t you read my book?” Know Jesus from what His book says about Him, and believe in Him.

In Christ, OldProf

 

[Abu]

OldProf #209
If you are trusting in Jesus + your own good works, then you will never have assurance because you will see yourself as always falling short of the standard of perfection (Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

Of course that’s the error – “we” cannot have “assurance”, but we can, and should, have hope. Only His Church can interpret Her Sacred Scriptures and infallibly declare the fullness of His truth.

As James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

God “will award to every man what his acts have deserved.” (Rom 2:6).

“The apostle notes that ‘there is a graciousness, then, in God, and there is also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away, his graciousness is for thee, only so long as thou dost continue in His grace; if not, thou too shall be shalt be pruned away’ (Rom 11:22). Paul wrote this to people who were already ‘saved’, in a state of grace – a grace they could lose, becoming ‘unsaved’.”

“Consider Romans 5:2: ‘We are confident in the hope of attaining glory as the sons of God.’ If we….are now sure of heaven, and know nothing can deprive us of it, then we have no reason to hope because we know that heaven is ours. But ‘our salvation is founded on the hope of something’ says Paul. ‘Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view; how could man still hope for something which he sees?’ (Rom 8:24). We hope for heaven, however well disposed we might be spiritually, because we know we still have a chance to lose it.” [Karl Keating, *Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius 1988, p 174-5].

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

 

[OldProf]

Seriously what do i have in this life that if lost means anything, my salvation is in the ‘bag’. There is nothing God can do to me that would cause me to fear.Hasten my end? Why that would be grand for i get heaven. Take my family? then God is no longer just, punishing others for some one else.Take my wealth? I have not the attachment to it so it would of no loss for i will still have heaven.

Sure read and quote scripture all you want but if you want to support error then there is no use of scripture.

Yet you haven’t quoted Romans 11:22 Why not? Is because you know it clearly defies your postion. Reading your “teachings” one can’t help but think this is me theology.
God picked me
I repent beacuse i fear loss for myself in this life
I repent because i loose rewards for myself

fbl9, neither you nor I want to support error. Proper use of Scripture IS imperative. That is why the Jews in Berea were designated as “noble” (Acts 17:11) when they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm Paul’s teaching. The Scriptures are what we are to study to be approved by God (2 Tim 2:15) so Christians will be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17).

If you have been following my responses, I have provided a context that demonstrates Jesus sheep will never perish (John 9:1 thru John 10:30 – Jesus sheep never perish, John 6:37-40, Jesus will not lose any that the Father gives Him – that is the will of the Father). Scripturally, we know the sheep are the elect of God (see Eph 1:3-14).

Therefore, you seem to think that Romans 11:22 is a challenge to this, such that it shows the sheep can perish. Let’s settle the context of this verse. Paul is writing to the Romans, which has a considerable number of non-Jewish believers. Paul is, of course, the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

In Romans 9 thru 11, Paul tells about God’s dealings with Israel, past and present, and where the Gentiles fit in (or are grafted in). These verses indicate a corporate view of God’s chosen people, their unbelief, and promises both for Israel and Gentile believers as a corporate whole.

Verses 9:1-5 tell us of Israel’s rejection of Christ (not a good thing!) and Paul’s sorrow and grief over that.

Verses 9:6-13 tell us of Israel’s unbelief and yet it is consistent with God’s purposes (6-13), His mercy and justice (14-24), and His prophetic revelation and prerequisite of faith (25-33).

Verses 10:1-13 tell us of Israel’s need for the gospel and their ignorance of God and ignorance of placing faith in Jesus Christ. Note vv. 3-4 and the real danger of a system of works righteousness – it is faith in Christ, not works. And v. 13, whoever believes (and only the elect will, because only the elect have been given the ability to believe), whether Jew or Gentile, will be saved. Remember, a person who is “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1) is “dead” – thus unable to do anything righteous (Rom 3:10).

Verses 10:14-21 tell us of Israel’s rejection of the Gospel, and how the Gentiles will receive the Gospel and salvation.

Verses 11:1-10 tell us Israel is not totally rejected – the elect remnant remains and understands grace, not works, in accordance with the Old Testament.

Verses 11:11-26 tell us that though Israel has fallen, the promises still apply. The root remains good, but branches are removed (unbelieving Jews) and other branches are grafted in (Gentile believers). Now to the challenge of your verse.

The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18). The world wide web is full of web sites that “prove” their points with verses ripped from their context and improperly applied.

Let’s avoid that error.

In Christ, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

By the way, in my above post I mentioned websites to be aware of - on this subject, the one given on page 1, second entry by Tietjen, is an example of one that seems to be very suspect. And I responded to it on my very first post, #42.

Regards, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

snip…You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18).
In Christ, OldProf

Thanks i will address the rest after some thought.
With me being right does not equal error/contradiction in scripture, rather a contradiction of what we each beleive scripture to be saying.

 

[OldProf]

Possibility of eternal life-that’s all any of us have except that it becomes a very high probability as we prove ourselves to be good soil. We can’t do it without grace and yet grace can be resisted.

Ouch! This is like you are correcting John in a bunch of places, starting with John 3:15, where Jesus is speaking. And you correct Paul (for example, Romans 6:23).

I could not hold to a theology that does that. I think it is VERY dangerous for you to do that as well.

Regards, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

Ouch! This is like you are correcting John in a bunch of places, starting with John 3:15, where Jesus is speaking. And you correct Paul (for example, Romans 6:23).

I could not hold to a theology that does that. I think it is VERY dangerous for you to do that as well.

Regards, OldProf

It’s just the will of God. He wants us to cooperate but won’t violate our wills in forcing us to ccoperate, as per Augustine. If we can’t resist grace then the entire drama of this life is a joke-what would be the purpose of casting us into this world-into the pigsty of pain suffering and death-if not for us to learn the value of home-of the* Father*-like the Prodigal, so we can wise up and come running back to the source of life, if we will? It has to be a choice, born out by how we live. That’s scriptural and the continuous, traditional teaching of the *only *Christian Church.

 

[OldProf]

It’s just the will of God. He wants us to cooperate but won’t violate our wills in forcing us to ccoperate, as per Augustine. If we can’t resist grace then the entire drama of this life is a joke-what would be the purpose of casting us into this world-into the pigsty of pain suffering and death-if not for us to learn the value of home-of the* Father*-like the Prodigal, so we can wise up and come running back to the source of life, if we will? It has to be a choice, born out by how we live. That’s scriptural and the continuous, traditional teaching of the *only *Christian Church.

Don’t you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

Don’t you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?

Sincerely, OldProf

I could easily turn this around and ask you the same question, based on the many scriptural verses that admonish believers to strive, persevere, etc in order to keep from falling back, with being cut off and the loss of eternal life/the kingdom at stake. Until you finally recognize and admit the inconvenient truth that the meaning of scripture can be argued plausibly from many different perspectives you’ll simply remain incapable of determining the will of God with any degree of depth or certainty. So,

"Don’t you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

 

[Jerry-Jet]

OldProf: do you obey the bible and “WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”?

 

[OldProf]

I could easily turn this around and ask you the same question, based on the many scriptural verses that admonish believers to strive, persevere, etc in order to keep from falling back, with being cut off and the loss of eternal life/the kingdom at stake. Until you finally recognize and admit the inconvenient truth that the meaning of scripture can be argued plausibly from many different perspectives you’ll simply remain incapable of determining the will of God with any degree of depth or certainty. So,

"Don’t you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I don’t think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993). The REAL inconvenient truth is that people do not carefully study the context of the prooftexts they use which creates unnecessary contradictions between verses. For example, we know the context of the statement by Jesus that His sheep will never perish (well covered in previous posts). We know the context of “eternal life” used over and over again, but never used in the form “the possibility of eternal life”. Clearly, that would easily have been written IF that was the meaning the Holy Spirit wanted to convey.

So, yes, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves in the context of the statements given. Jesus sheep never perish. The sheep have eternal life. This has been covered in context.

But you didn’t answer my question. So here it is again, but to be clear, the sinner is the “natural man” who does not seek after God and is not righteous as Paul describes with emphasis in Romans 3, and in fact he is “dead in trespasses and sin” from Eph 2:1 (not crippled with some abilities - dead). The question is about the “ability” of this “dead” sinner.

“If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?”

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993). The REAL inconvenient truth is that people do not carefully study the context of the prooftexts they use which creates unnecessary contradictions between verses. For example, we know the context of the statement by Jesus that His sheep will never perish (well covered in previous posts). We know the context of “eternal life” used over and over again, but never used in the form “the possibility of eternal life”. Clearly, that would easily have been written IF that was the meaning the Holy Spirit wanted to convey.

So, yes, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves in the context of the statements given. Jesus sheep never perish. The sheep have eternal life. This has been covered in context.

But you didn’t answer my question. So here it is again, but to be clear, the sinner is the “natural man” who does not seek after God and is not righteous as Paul describes with emphasis in Romans 3, and in fact he is “dead in trespasses and sin” from Eph 2:1 (not crippled with some abilities - dead). The question is about the “ability” of this “dead” sinner.

“If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?”

Sincerely, OldProf

No, you still don’t understand. No amount of understanding of systematic theology or any system of exegesis will suffice-and Catholic theologians aren’t just fresh off the boat in those areas, either, BTW- because those fields are nonetheless far from definitive in their ability to prove or disprove any given point of theology. And this is why my grandmother from the Italian Alps, one step above peasantry, had a better grasp of the faith and the will of God in general than yourself-because she was taught by the one church that was established for the purpose of receiving, preserving, and conveying the faith. Like I said before, your understanding/interpretations are plausible, just wrong in certain areas.