Assurance of Salvation

[fbl9]

Therefore, you seem to think that Romans 11:22 is a challenge to this, such that it shows the sheep can perish. Let’s settle the context of this verse. Paul is writing to the Romans, which has a considerable number of non-Jewish believers. Paul is, of course, the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

In Romans 9 thru 11, Paul tells about God’s dealings with Israel, past and present, and where the Gentiles fit in (or are grafted in). These verses indicate a corporate view of God’s chosen people, their unbelief, and promises both for Israel and Gentile believers as a corporate whole.

Verses 9:1-5 tell us of Israel’s rejection of Christ (not a good thing!) and Paul’s sorrow and grief over that.

Verses 9:6-13 tell us of Israel’s unbelief and yet it is consistent with God’s purposes (6-13), His mercy and justice (14-24), and His prophetic revelation and prerequisite of faith (25-33).

Verses 10:1-13 tell us of Israel’s need for the gospel and their ignorance of God and ignorance of placing faith in Jesus Christ. Note vv. 3-4 and the real danger of a system of works righteousness – it is faith in Christ, not works. And v. 13, whoever believes (and only the elect will, because only the elect have been given the ability to believe), whether Jew or Gentile, will be saved. Remember, a person who is “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1) is “dead” – thus unable to do anything righteous (Rom 3:10).

Verses 10:14-21 tell us of Israel’s rejection of the Gospel, and how the Gentiles will receive the Gospel and salvation.

Verses 11:1-10 tell us Israel is not totally rejected – the elect remnant remains and understands grace, not works, in accordance with the Old Testament.

Verses 11:11-26 tell us that though Israel has fallen, the promises still apply. The root remains good, but branches are removed (unbelieving Jews) and other branches are grafted in (Gentile believers). Now to the challenge of your verse.

The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18). The world wide web is full of web sites that “prove” their points with verses ripped from their context and improperly applied.

Let’s avoid that error.

In Christ, OldProf

You might have something here but St.Paul was a Jew, as were approx 3000 and what 140 or so in the upper room. And the many more than came into the church everyday.As a whole Isreal did not reject God. He would cut those that did not beleive. Not the whole as you try to imply.
Now us as a whole, no. As you can plainly see it was individuals cut off. And it will be individual gentiles cut off with unbeleif. So guard your faith lest you become an unbeleiver and be cut off.

 

[OldProf]

OldProf: do you obey the bible and “WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”?

Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. The sheep have eternal life which is meaningless if a sheep can die and go to hell. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

And I obey the Bible when St John tells me, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13 ESV (see biblegateway for ESV).

The Bible is a great gift from God. It has been said: (Anonymous)

“This book contains: the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrine is holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. Here heaven is open, and the gates of hell are disclosed. Christ is the grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you here in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and is established forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemn all who trifle with its contents.”

“For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.” The Apostle Paul, 1 Thessalonians 2:13

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus didn’t die on the cross so that people in one instant of faith could be branded.

Jesus died on the cross so that people could CONTINUALLY be transformed by Him and made righteous.

Mortal sin is a fact.

Mortal sin breaks the continual transformation.

Die in that state and yes–a person will go to Hell!

Satan wants people to believe in once saved always saved so he can get them to mortally sin and take them to Hell!

Satan can not SNATCH them out of Jesus’ hands–but Jesus will let them leave Him–just ask Judas!

I never have been able to understand the Protestant mind that is so small that it cannot comprehend CONTINUANCE.

God said He was “I AM”.

We have to become like Him.

Being truely saved does not mean that NECESSARILY a saved person will always continue to be in that transforming state until death.

Why would anyone believe that that is always NECESSARILY the case?

Do you think the devil believes that?!

He laughs at people that are dumb enough to believe that!

He laughs at people that are dumb enough to believe that Christ’s Catholic Church led by the Holy Spirit would teach error for 1500 years!

It really gets down to who do you want to bet your soul on–Protestants with no authority for the last 500 years or the Catholic Church given authority by Christ for 2000 years.

If you don’t believe in once saved always saved and do not die in a state of mortal sin you will not go to Hell.

If you do believe in once saved always saved and die in a state of mortal sin–are you willing to bet your eternal soul on not going to Hell?

Who would make such a dumb bet?

Satan wants people to make that bet.

Satan has always been Protestant.

He protests against Christ’s Catholic church.

Why join him?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. . . .

OldProf,
I posted on this thread closer to its beginning. So, I’m not completely up to speed on all the recent posts.

However, one of the most humbling things for me, in considering salvation, is that Jesus, when he prepared His Apostles for the trials they would face, did not give them assurance of salvation. He said, **" the one who endures to the end will be saved." ** There are many elements of the salvation journey, perseverance is one of them.

Matthew 10:
16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Salvation is not a moment in time, it is a life long journey with the Holy Trinity.

We live in the hope of the resurrection, at every moment calling upon the Holy Spirit to search us out, convict us of sins and call us to confession, repentance, and reconciliation. The Sacraments play a role in our salvation, being a means, chosen by God, to impart His Grace.

Salvation is often over-simplified in Protestant proclamations of the Gospel, which leads many into a false sense of security, a false sense of salvation, and places their very salvation at risk.

One does not have to be a “serious student of systematic theology, since 1993” (as you claim to be) to understand salvation. Holy Scripture is actually very clear.

Peace,
Anna

 

[fbl9]

Jesus didn’t die on the cross so that people in one instant of faith could be branded.

Jesus died on the cross so that people could CONTINUALLY be transformed by Him and made righteous.

Mortal sin is a fact.

Mortal sin breaks the continual transformation.

Die in that state and yes–a person will go to Hell!

Satan wants people to believe in once saved always saved so he can get them to mortally sin and take them to Hell!

Satan can not SNATCH them out of Jesus’ hands–but Jesus will let them leave Him–just ask Judas!

I never have been able to understand the Protestant mind that seems it cannot comprehend CONTINUANCE.

God said He was “I AM”.

We have to become like Him.

Being truely saved does not mean that NECESSARILY a saved person will always continue to be in that transforming state until death.

Why would anyone believe that that is always NECESSARILY the case?

Do you think the devil believes that?!

He smiles when people believe that!

Satan smiles when people beleive that Christ’s Catholic Church led by the Holy Spirit would teach error for 1500 years!

It really gets down to who do you want to bet your soul on–Protestants with no authority for the last 500 years or the Catholic Church given authority by Christ for 2000 years.

If you don’t believe in once saved always saved and do not die in a state of mortal sin you will not go to Hell.

If you do believe in once saved always saved and die in a state of mortal sin–are you willing to bet your eternal soul on not going to Hell?

Satan wants people to make that bet.

Satan has always been Protestant.

He protests against Christ’s Catholic church.

Why tempt him?

Now i can agree fully with your post. after tweaking it a bit.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

oldprof’s misunderstandings are based on the assumption(or presumption) that he is one of the elect. The problem is that while we can have great confidence on God’s part that He will hold up(and has held up) His end by completeing His work and granting all men the opportunity to be saved, the failure comes from us.

The misunderstanding come from the addition of “alone” to the verb “believe”. “Believe” in the context means more than just the mental act of faith but is better described as “faithfulness” which includes not just the act of faith but “faith working through love”(Gal 5:6).

As James says Faith is not complete without works of love. This is why Paul tells us to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling…”

The Church teaches-as she has always taught-that salvation is a process or is like a trust that has been put away for us. It is a promise, but it is not a guaranteed promise. Its like your father putting your inheritance into a trust and he tells you that that inheritence belongs to you-it is yours. But there are conditions of maturity that you must meet in order to receive it: like doing your chores, doing your homework, graduating high school and college, etc.

By meeting those requirments the son receives his trust promised to him. He does not earn it(or rather he does not “work” for it)because it was a trust-it already belonged to him by the promise of the father. But if that son failed to meet those requirments, he would have lost it. So with salvation. It is a gift freely promised and freely given. But if we fail to cooperate with God’s grace and mature to the fullness God requires because “nothing unclean and enter it(heaven)” then we can lose it(Matt 7:21,see also Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Phil 2:12; John 6, etc.).

If we forfeit being fathful, we forfeit the faith, we become faithless, therefore we lose salvation because we shunned His gift through our faithlessness. I can’t put it any simpler.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Don’t you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?

Sincerely, OldProf

real problem is that i dont have a readily available bible at present, i would appreciate if you tell me about those passage so i dont have to wait.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

I don’t think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993). The REAL inconvenient truth is that people do not carefully study the context of the prooftexts they use which creates unnecessary contradictions between verses. For example, we know the context of the statement by Jesus that His sheep will never perish (well covered in previous posts). We know the context of “eternal life” used over and over again, but never used in the form “the possibility of eternal life”. Clearly, that would easily have been written IF that was the meaning the Holy Spirit wanted to convey.

So, yes, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves in the context of the statements given. Jesus sheep never perish. The sheep have eternal life. This has been covered in context.

But you didn’t answer my question. So here it is again, but to be clear, the sinner is the “natural man” who does not seek after God and is not righteous as Paul describes with emphasis in Romans 3, and in fact he is “dead in trespasses and sin” from Eph 2:1 (not crippled with some abilities - dead). The question is about the “ability” of this “dead” sinner.

“If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don’t you think?”

Sincerely, OldProf

a sinner with freewill is reponsive to grace ‘actual grace’ and certainly can lead to good thought, words and action.
the sheep donot perish if they remain sheep ‘cut off from me you can do nothing’’.
ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. The sheep have eternal life which is meaningless if a sheep can die and go to hell. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

And I obey the Bible when St John tells me, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13 ESV (see biblegateway for ESV).

The Bible is a great gift from God. It has been said: (Anonymous)

“This book contains: the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrine is holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. Here heaven is open, and the gates of hell are disclosed. Christ is the grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you here in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and is established forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemn all who trifle with its contents.”

“For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.” The Apostle Paul, 1 Thessalonians 2:13

Sincerely, OldProf

john said i am writing to you who believe, christ say eternal life is to know d one true God and his son. Only those who believe has that life bcos john was refering to those who believe. What about those who shipweck their faith?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

It does not include following Gods Law “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” because no one does that. That is why we need Gods Grace, so we can be saved by God Grace via our faith and trust.

Peace, JohnR

so because according to you no one loves his neighbour that mean Gods laws. It make me remember the word of paul ‘be renewed’ if you cant do it now then you show conform yourself to him and im sure you can by his grace.
Ubenedictus

 

[OldProf]

No, you still don’t understand. No amount of understanding of systematic theology or any system of exegesis will suffice-and Catholic theologians aren’t just fresh off the boat in those areas, either, BTW- because those fields are nonetheless far from definitive in their ability to prove or disprove any given point of theology. And this is why my grandmother from the Italian Alps, one step above peasantry, had a better grasp of the faith and the will of God in general than yourself-because she was taught by the one church that was established for the purpose of receiving, preserving, and conveying the faith. Like I said before, your understanding/interpretations are plausible, just wrong in certain areas.

I grant I may be wrong in my belief the Bible teaches that man is incapable of ANY righteous act. I do believe in simple faith, as seen from the thief on the cross. And I think that God gave the thief the gift of faith. But, two questions for you.

What does Paul mean in Romans 3:10-12 (ESV)?

10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

What does Paul mean in Ephesians 2:1-9 (ESV)?

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

You might have something here but St.Paul was a Jew, as were approx 3000 and what 140 or so in the upper room. And the many more than came into the church everyday.As a whole Isreal did not reject God. He would cut those that did not beleive. Not the whole as you try to imply.
Now us as a whole, no. As you can plainly see it was individuals cut off. And it will be individual gentiles cut off with unbeleif. So guard your faith lest you become an unbeleiver and be cut off.

Your interpretation forces a contradiction. See John 9:1 thru John 10:30. Jesus sheep never perish. He knows them and they know Him. But you say the believer (sheep) can become an unbeliever. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, can lose His sheep.

Correct?

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[teeboy]

Salvatio requires acts of a virtuous nature. One can’t see God during earthly existence. Therefore one can’t be certain of salvation while on Earth.

 

[pablope]

Your interpretation forces a contradiction. See John 9:1 thru John 10:30. Jesus sheep never perish. He knows them and they know Him. But you say the believer (sheep) can become an unbeliever. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, can lose His sheep.

Correct?

Sincerely, OldProf

Hmmmmm…Heb 10…36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you **will **receive what he has promised.

“will” denotes future tense…and the “when” denotes the condition…to receive what was promised.

Similarly…Rom 11…21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Looks like God will not hesitate to cut you off.

 

[fbl9]

Similarly…Rom 11…21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Looks like God will not hesitate to cut you off.

OldProf addressed these verses in above post.

 

[fbl9]

OldProf;
i noted in your reply you seem to be saying that yes your salvaion is conditional based on whether or not a certain number of Gentiles accept the gospel, first post on page 15.

OldProf’s
The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

 

[fhansen]

What does Paul mean in Romans 3:10-12 (ESV)?

No one measures up to Gods standards. No one is holy as God would have them be-no one is righteous, not one. We don’t even know what righteousness is, especially when we think it amounts to nothing more than fulfilling some laws. We need the grace of God to turn us towards true righteousness-but even then we can resist!

But all of this still means, as I’ve maintained over and over, that scripture can be confusing and sometimes downright seemingly contradictory-which is why it can’t be strictly depended on as authoritative in the way and for the purpose you want it to.

What does Paul mean in Ephesians 2:1-9 (ESV)?

But I’ll indulge you on Ephesians as best I can, which is pretty straight forward and by and large consistent with the whole of the NT, with, perhaps, a bit of hyperbole. (Paul really doesn’t know the eternal status of each and every one of these individual Ephesian followers )

Eph 1: Paul gives thanks for these chosen believers who he addresses.

Eph 2 Salvation is a gift of God-there’s nothing we can do to earn it-we’re all dead in our sins. Jew and Gentile alike are saved by this “law of grace”

Eph 3 Paul continues to stress that Jews and Gentiles make up one body-and he prays they will be empowered by the Spirit.

Eph 4: Paul tells them how to live and be strengthened as Christians, and he exhorts them not to live as unbelievers; they must put off the old self and sinful ways.

Eph 5: Paul tells them they must walk in the way of love and admonishes them even more strongly not to fulfill the desires of the flesh since such a person has no inheritance in the kingdom of God. They were in darkness, now they are children of light, but they must stay that way.

Eph 6: Put on the armor of God, stand strong that you may endure -and pray.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Your interpretation forces a contradiction. See John 9:1 thru John 10:30. Jesus sheep never perish. He knows them and they know Him. But you say the believer (sheep) can become an unbeliever. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, can lose His sheep.

Correct?

Sincerely, OldProf

‘‘none of them was lost but the one who choose to be lost’’. He didnt lose him, he chose to be lost.
Ubenedictus

 

[OldProf]

john said i am writing to you who believe, christ say eternal life is to know d one true God and his son. Only those who believe has that life bcos john was refering to those who believe. What about those who shipweck their faith?
Ubenedictus

Ubenedictus, I think 1 John 2:19 is helpful: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

A person who appears to be an active Christian, yet is not really a Christian (or one of Jesus sheep), will not persevere in the faith. They would not be an overcomer, and they will leave the faith. But they never were one of Jesus sheep. They may think they are a good person, or even a good Christian, but Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:23 ESV)

Regards, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

Ubenedictus, I think 1 John 2:19 is helpful: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

A person who appears to be an active Christian, yet is not really a Christian (or one of Jesus sheep), will not persevere in the faith. They would not be an overcomer, and they will leave the faith. But they never were one of Jesus sheep. They may think they are a good person, or even a good Christian, but Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:23 ESV)

Regards, OldProf

True enough-now if we could just be 100% certain which camp we fall into -guess we’ll just have to wait and see.