Assurance of Salvation

[OldProf]

Salvatio requires acts of a virtuous nature. One can’t see God during earthly existence. Therefore one can’t be certain of salvation while on Earth.

teeboy, note Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” and Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

No one will be boasting of any good works. But, if good works are not evident in a professing Christian, then they really are not one of Jesus sheep per James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” True Christians will work out their salvation in a way that brings God the Glory.

On assurance of salvation, 1 John 5:13 says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” The context of that verse tells me that a true believer can have an assurance of their salvation. As I’ve mentioned before, this requires that the belief is based on the Jesus as revealed in the Bible.

Once God begins something, he finishes it. Php 1:6 “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ”. Heb 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith …”

“Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9). This is why we can have a joyous peace knowing God is in control.

“and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

OldProf;
i noted in your reply you seem to be saying that yes your salvaion is conditional based on whether or not a certain number of Gentiles accept the gospel, first post on page 15.

It seems clear to me Romans 9-11 is conditional to groups, not individuals. We even know that God can choose someone outside of the Jewish nation, the chosen people, in the Old Testament. As you know, her name was Ruth. The sovereign choice is God’s, and His “elect” are the faithful overcomers who persevere in the faith and out of their love for God, they bring Him the Glory.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”” Rev 9:9-10.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[teeboy]

teeboy, note Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” and Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

No one will be boasting of any good works. But, if good works are not evident in a professing Christian, then they really are not one of Jesus sheep per James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” True Christians will work out their salvation in a way that brings God the Glory.

On assurance of salvation, 1 John 5:13 says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” The context of that verse tells me that a true believer can have an assurance of their salvation. As I’ve mentioned before, this requires that the belief is based on the Jesus as revealed in the Bible.

Once God begins something, he finishes it. Php 1:6 “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ”. Heb 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith …”

“Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9). This is why we can have a joyous peace knowing God is in control.

“and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Regards, OldProf

Son,

I purchased gold from Jesus a long time ago. It was an exchange of like kind. The purchase method was painful.

 

[OldProf]

Son,

I purchased gold from Jesus a long time ago. It was an exchange of like kind. The purchase method was painful.

teeboy, I’m not sure what you mean. Please elaborate.

Peace, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

OldProf;
i noted in your reply you seem to be saying that yes your salvaion is conditional based on whether or not a certain number of Gentiles accept the gospel, first post on page 15.

OldProf’s
The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

fbl9, some verses for your consideration: Acts 13:44-52 ESV

44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Note how the Jews against Paul are provoked, and the Gentiles rejoice. And note God’s sovereign choice in the salvation of His elect.

Peace, OldProf

 

[teeboy]

teeboy, I’m not sure what you mean. Please elaborate.

Peace, OldProf

Grace is what I mean. Actual grace. Gold refined by fire.

 

[OldProf]

Grace is what I mean. Actual grace. Gold refined by fire.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9 ESV

And Romans 3:9-12 ESV states:

9 For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Paul’s case is clear. Man has NO ability to do anything righteous. teeboy, when you tell me that you have painfully purchased gold from God (His grace), then your statement contradicts St. Paul.

Is that really your position? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

Peace, OldProf

 

[Abu]

OldProf #247
Paul’s case is clear. Man has NO ability to do anything righteous.

This wallowing is self-interpretation always leads to error.

As Hebrews 10:26 confirms: “If we go on sinning willfully, when once the full knowledge of truth has been granted to us, we have no further sacrifice for sin to look forward to; nothing but a terrible expectation of judgment, a fire that will eagerly consume the rebellious.”

St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

Our Lord expressly linked greater rewards with greater merit in His parable of the talents. St Athanasius sees the talent as a symbol of grace – “For it is not His will that the grace we have received should be unprofitable, but he requires us to take pains to render Him His own fruits, as the blessed Paul saith: ‘The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace.’ ” [St Athanasius, Letter VI, 5].

The interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures by the saints and by Christ’s Church is the key to the road to holiness, not the feelings of those who contradict Christ’s Church and muddle Her Scriptures.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. The sheep have eternal life which is meaningless if a sheep can die and go to hell. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

And I obey the Bible when St John tells me, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13 ESV (see biblegateway for ESV).

The Bible is a great gift from God. It has been said: (Anonymous)

“This book contains: the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrine is holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. Here heaven is open, and the gates of hell are disclosed. Christ is the grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you here in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and is established forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemn all who trifle with its contents.”

“For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.” The Apostle Paul, 1 Thessalonians 2:13

Sincerely, OldProf

OldProf… you still have the problem of interpretation… Salvation is Eternal… Catholic theology has no problem with that.
God is Omnipotent… Catholic theology has no problem with that.

Catholic theology has a problem with those who believe as you do that you are granted Salvation and that you cannot sin because you are in Christ (of the sheep) hence you cannot lose Salvation.

Scriptures never gives you that guarantee!

You are a sinner!

Salvation is Granted by God.

I am a sinner!

I cannot secure my Salvation (nor you) just by quoting Scriptures.

Only Jesus is Eternal Life and only in Him is there Salvation… without Jesus I (nor you) are Saved!:

16 Always be joyful; 17 pray constantly; 18 and for all things give thanks; this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not stifle the Spirit 20 or despise the gift of prophecy with contempt; (1 Thessalonians 5:16-20)

Clearly, St. Paul is not speaking to unBelievers but to Believers and he warns not to hinder the Holy Spirit (yes, OldProf, even those sheeps in God’s Hand can chose to reject the Holy Spirit).

1 Brothers, even if one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way. 2 Carry each other’s burdens; that is how to keep the law of Christ. 3 Someone who thinks himself important, when he is not, only deceives himself;

7 Don’t delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap. 8 If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life. 9 And let us never slacken in doing good; for if we do not give up, we shall have our harvest in due time. (Galatians 6:1-3, 7-9)

…again, St. Paul speaks to Believers and warns them that they should not be so self-assured (‘I,m Saved!’) because they too can fall to sin; further, he admonishes that Christians should persevere in a Life in the Spirit since Salvation is the final reward (notice how he does not preach self reliance and salvific clause).

9 Do you not realise that people who do evil will never inherit the kingdom of God? Make no mistake – the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, the self-indulgent, sodomites, 10 thieves, misers, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20 the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21 factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

…as you have counseled others, do not believe what seems easy but listen to God’s Word: if you return to sin, it will bite you on the end!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

real problem is that i dont have a readily available bible at present, i would appreciate if you tell me about those passage so i dont have to wait.
Ubenedictus

Hi!

There are several on-line Bibles: @ the Vatican, EWTN, newadvent.org, catholic.org… most are easy to navigate!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I grant I may be wrong in my belief the Bible teaches that man is incapable of ANY righteous act. I do believe in simple faith, as seen from the thief on the cross. And I think that God gave the thief the gift of faith. But, two questions for you.

What does Paul mean in Romans 3:10-12 (ESV)?

10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

What does Paul mean in Ephesians 2:1-9 (ESV)?

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Sincerely, OldProf

…again, you are confused!

Catholic theology does not dispute that man is sinful and cannot of himself do anything for his Salvation… your problem is that you put sin together with will… so if man cannot do good of his own will he cannot reject God… do you recall what that old heresy is… you know… the one that claims that God has already convicted certain number of humans to damnation? …could that be predestination?

We have been Granted by God free will–we can chose death of Life: God or rejection of God! Not predestination!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Your interpretation forces a contradiction. See John 9:1 thru John 10:30. Jesus sheep never perish. He knows them and they know Him. But you say the believer (sheep) can become an unbeliever. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, can lose His sheep.

Correct?

Sincerely, OldProf

No contradiction… the sheep can perish if they refuse to stay in God’s Care!

God is Omnipotent not man!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Ubenedictus, I think 1 John 2:19 is helpful: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

A person who appears to be an active Christian, yet is not really a Christian (or one of Jesus sheep), will not persevere in the faith. They would not be an overcomer, and they will leave the faith. But they never were one of Jesus sheep. They may think they are a good person, or even a good Christian, but Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:23 ESV)

Regards, OldProf

…so you are saying that that old tel evangelist who for years ministered to a flock in the name of Jesus then decided to behave immorally, got caught, professed to have been forgiven by wife, followers, God and himself… then got caught again doing similar things… he was not a believer… he was just faking it for many many years?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

teeboy, note Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” and Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

No one will be boasting of any good works. But, if good works are not evident in a professing Christian, then they really are not one of Jesus sheep per James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” True Christians will work out their salvation in a way that brings God the Glory.

On assurance of salvation, 1 John 5:13 says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” The context of that verse tells me that a true believer can have an assurance of their salvation. As I’ve mentioned before, this requires that the belief is based on the Jesus as revealed in the Bible.

Once God begins something, he finishes it. Php 1:6 “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ”. Heb 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith …”

“Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9). This is why we can have a joyous peace knowing God is in control.

“and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Regards, OldProf

…OldProf, what does “continue to believe” means to you?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It seems clear to me Romans 9-11 is conditional to groups, not individuals. We even know that God can choose someone outside of the Jewish nation, the chosen people, in the Old Testament. As you know, her name was Ruth. The sovereign choice is God’s, and His “elect” are the faithful overcomers who persevere in the faith and out of their love for God, they bring Him the Glory.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”” Rev 9:9-10.

Sincerely, OldProf

…so that individual on another Bible site that claims to be part of “the invicible” church and that pastor who claim that it’s OK to commit suicide (I guess as long as you are connected) have their Salvation assured?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Ubenedictus]

Ubenedictus, I think 1 John 2:19 is helpful: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

A person who appears to be an active Christian, yet is not really a Christian (or one of Jesus sheep), will not persevere in the faith. They would not be an overcomer, and they will leave the faith. But they never were one of Jesus sheep. They may think they are a good person, or even a good Christian, but Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:23 ESV)

Regards, OldProf

yeah so it says, and what happens when oldprof who is an active or good christain becomes an atheist? What about his absolute assurance of salvation? He didnt persevere till the end and there goes ‘i know you not’. That doesnt sound like an absolute assurance, right?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Hi!

There are several on-line Bibles: @ the Vatican, EWTN, newadvent.org, catholic.org… most are easy to navigate!

Maran atha!

Angel

thanks, i was actually using my phone. It cant access two site at a time.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9 ESV

And Romans 3:9-12 ESV states:

9 For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Paul’s case is clear. Man has NO ability to do anything righteous. teeboy, when you tell me that you have painfully purchased gold from God (His grace), then your statement contradicts St. Paul.

Is that really your position? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

Peace, OldProf

yeah, man cant do anything good on his own that is why we need grace.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

fbl9, some verses for your consideration: Acts 13:44-52 ESV

44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Note how the Jews against Paul are provoked, and the Gentiles rejoice. And note God’s sovereign choice in the salvation of His elect.

Peace, OldProf

yeah predestination. And did you ge a supernatural revelation about your status with the elect?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

It seems clear to me Romans 9-11 is conditional to groups, not individuals. We even know that God can choose someone outside of the Jewish nation, the chosen people, in the Old Testament. As you know, her name was Ruth. The sovereign choice is God’s, and His “elect” are the faithful overcomers who persevere in the faith and out of their love for God, they bring Him the Glory.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”” Rev 9:9-10.

Sincerely, OldProf

what i can find is that it is conditional on belief. When the jews refused to believe they were cut off, peter is a jew who believed and wasnt cut off, a gentile who doesnt believe will be cut off just like a believeing jew is saved.
Ubenedictus